PCN for 'cloned' number plate. - ILoveVimto

Afternoon,

I've received a PCN for using a bus lane. However, the car in the image is not mine (different make and colour) and the number plate image is of very poor quality. It looks as if the number plate could be mine due to the angle and poor lighting. When checking the one unclear letter against O instead of D I've been able to find the correct car in image. So rather than a case of a cloned number plate the incorrect number plate has been used to obtain the details from the DVLA.

I've informed the issuing local authority of this - they disagree that they have made a mistake and have told me to inform the police. They also seem unwilling to cancel the PCN even though they are aware that my car and number plate don’t match what is in the photo. They stand by the number plate is as they say and that I should inform the police my plate has been cloned.

So, the question is what are my options? I'm assuming I'll have to go to court to challenge this, does anyone know of any specialist (and trustworthy) solicitors that I could contact, esp. in the Wiltshire, Dorset, Hampshire areas. Would be great if they would do a no win no fee case if they are still a thing!

Kind regards

Vimto Lover

PCN for 'cloned' number plate. - Brit_in_Germany

Wouldn't the simplest solution be to report it to the police and let them investigate? Then send the local authority a reference number.

PCN for 'cloned' number plate. - ILoveVimto

I will report it to the police but I doubt they will consider it a crime or a problem given it is clear the plate hasn't been cloned and has just been misread on the image used.

There is car A (my car) with a number plate with a D on it and there is car B with the same plate part from the D where they have an O instead.

XXXX XDX

and

XXXX XOX

When checking on the DVLA website you can see that the plate with a D matches my car and the plate with an O matches the car in the image in terms of make and colour. I do not think this is a case of number plate cloning, rather a case of an inadequate ANPR system and the choice of a poor image from which to pull the number plate form.

(edited to add car details)

Edited by ILoveVimto on 07/01/2020 at 16:04

PCN for 'cloned' number plate. - Miniman777

Unfortunately for the OP, you cant legislate for the numpties who do the DVLA checks.

Some years ago, Mrs Miniman had a PCN for contravening a bus lane in Lambeth. Not only had her car never been to London, the reg of the offending car was XDX but a numberplate bolt through the centre of the D made it look like XBX - our reg. Hence the PCN.

When the system user makes a DVLA check for keepers details, either the DVLA system does not provide the user making the enquiry with type/model/colour or they simply were too lazy to cross check, thus avoiding the hassle. The car in the pic was a white 3 door Corsa, ours was a black 5 door Corsa, so they were close!

To prove it was not the wife, I sent a copy of the V5 and colour photos of the car from several angles, along with a hospital appointment letter for the day in question which proved she was not in London.

Took around six weeks before the council cancelled the ticket, but no apology for their error, no nothing. Send all your evidence by recorded delivery.

PCN for 'cloned' number plate. - Falkirk Bairn

A few years back a speeding ticket came a son's way.

His car was an IS with a personal number.

The car in question was a Mercedes C/E Class, different colour, roof rack and had plates which bore the same reg as my son's car , before he put his plate on it.

The speeding was South Manchester & in my son's time it had never been that far south.

The Police required a declaration it was not his car & 6 x photos of his IS.

All sent off by email - they lost it. They threatened prosecution for failing to reply. The person handling such cases did not take incoming calls, only email or her calling out.

Took 4+ weeks and then another 2 weeks for a letter telling him the NIP was issued in error.

PCN for 'cloned' number plate. - Engineer Andy

Sadly that sort of thing is far more common these days because so many muppets are employed in such jobs.

PCN for 'cloned' number plate. - Bromptonaut

Vimto,

Which authority issued the ticket? Reason for asking is that I'm wondering if dispute would go to court or to a Tribunal as they do in London.

Edited by Bromptonaut on 07/01/2020 at 18:42

PCN for 'cloned' number plate. - ILoveVimto

Thanks to all the above! It is good to hear that it hasn't just happened to me.

I've done some digging and they go to a Parking Tribunal rather than a court so I should be able to manage that on my own if it gets that far.

The council in question is Swindon Bourgh Council.

I've had a watch of the video of the incident on the website which they allow you to do when trying to challenge it (however none of the options allow you to choose " you have made a mistake" so haven't been able to make a representation though this way) and the quality is so poor you can't make out anything but the make/model of the car. It's still clearly not my car but doesn't provide any support I think for anyone’s case! They provide a close up shot from what could be another camera of the number plate but really.. that could be any number plate. There is no consistency between the car on the road and the number plate shown, as in you can see the number plate is on the car in the image - it's just a photo from a steep angle. I know it wasn’t me and I know this is a mistake but even so – this is so sloppy that it is annoying to think they are actually ticketing people with this!

Before I go to the police to report the 'cloning' of my number plate I want to get formal letter from Swindon to the effect that they are going to back what I think is an error. My report to the police is going to end up being - "I don't think this has happened but Swindon are sure they are unable to make a mistake and so please can you investigate this." I can even give the police the registration to track down (which isn't mine) so they can find the person in the footage but as their number plate is different then I doubt they would even bother. Just such a ridiculous situation to be in.

Well thanks for listening and I'll update in the future, but by the sounds if it could take a few months!

Thanks,

VimtoLover

PCN for 'cloned' number plate. - Bromptonaut

@ ILV,

I've been to a parking Tribunal, albeit the one for London, over a ticket issued for parking in Lincolns Inn (Camden) in a place with ambiguous signage. It's pretty straightforward and informal and i won. The success rate for appellants who turn up to the hearing and have their evidential ducks in a row is pretty impressive.

I'll reply more fully from home tonight (at work until 17:00).

PCN for 'cloned' number plate. - Bromptonaut

First of all I'd suggest (in the nicest possible way!!) you avoid 'overthinking' things like grounds of appeal. It's a simple and relatively informal set up.

The relevant regulations are here:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/2757/regulation/9/made

Regulation 9 covers grounds.

The contravention alleged is that your car, registration V1 MTO, infringed a bus lane. Your case is that the contravention did not occur; it was a different vehicle. Your representations to the Council should spell out why they've misinterpreted the video. Point out the differences between your car's make/model/colour and any distinguishing features like dealer stickers and that in the video. Similarly with the inconsistency between registrations. If the quality is poor to point of being difficult to interpret mention that too. Stick to the facts. The council's officers may be boneheaded but there's no merit, and some risk to your own credibility, in pointing that out.

As informal representations don't seem to be working get the formal version in asap and for goodness sake don't miss the time limit in the Notice to Owner.

If your formal representations are rejected then the rejection notice will give you the authorisation/identity code you need to lodge the appeal with the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.

The hearing, if it gets that far will presumably be in Swindon. The tribunal will have a clutch of cases for the adjudicator, who will be a lawyer of at least 5 years standing, to deal with and send him/her out there to do a day's worth. It's all pretty straightforward. Most councils don't bother to send a representative so you just explain your case to the adjudicator. He/she will have the Council's 'bundle' stored digitally on a laptop - the TPT pioneered paperless hearings 20 or so years ago.You will have opportunity in advance of the hearing to submit any photographs of your own, for example to show what your car looks like in terms of model, colour etc so that you can highlight differences.

There's a thread on another forum describing my experience:

tinyurl.com/uubnuoq

You can 'cut to the chase' if you don't want to read the 'banter' with other forumites about merits of my case.

It's entirely up to you whether you report it to the police or not. You don't think your car has been cloned so there's nothing to report. On the other hand you could report it via the Police non-emergency number, or better email, explaining broadly as above that although you don't think it is a clone you're letting them know the possibility has been raised.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

Edited by Bromptonaut on 09/01/2020 at 09:18

PCN for 'cloned' number plate. - Bromptonaut

Vimto,

An afterthought. If you don't live in Swindon or anywhere near ask the tribunal to arrange hearing near you. No reason why you should drive miles to get this sorted out.

PCN for 'cloned' number plate. - Palcouk
Simply reply to the PCN stating it is not your vehicle, different make/color. Dont bother phoning.
Dont involve solicitors as it would cost you more than simply paying.
Depends who issued the PCN as to whether any court is involved.
PCN for 'cloned' number plate. - gordonbennet

I've had two instances of misread number plates causing issues, wrong people wrong jobs.

One was a simple misread of an Asda parking area some 80 miles from home, our Subaru Outback was a Pug 307 for the day, the threats kept coming and i let them waste a fair amount of time paper and postage before informing them. simply phoned them and asked them to look at the pic.

The other one was much worse, and involved a rather keen policeman who simply would not accept he'd got things wrong, i was accused of demolishing someones gates with my lorry and leaving the scene, leaving parts of a tail lift behind as well as broken lights etc, unfortunately i drove a full size car transporter in those days and not only are they not fitted with tail lifts there is no way on this earth i could have got the thing into this small housing estate in the first place, common sense would have told the copper that.

Officer pestered my company who tried in vain to explain that out of a fleet of some 350 lorries every single one was a transporter.

Eventually the paperwork arrived at my home, i never did speak to the bolshy copper but did get hold of the civvies handling the case, they sent me stills from the CCTV showing the evidence and there in all its glory was a 7.5 tonner box van with tail lift no doubt on parcel work, complete with its wrong reg number, the civvie sorted it out, but just shows how you can be treated as guilty long before anyone's even spoken to you or looked carefully at the case they have in front of them.

In some ways it might be amusing for all the OP's case to end up in front of a judge, who can then dish out some withering remarks to where its needed, but it's not the judge's fault that useless people are employed in places they shouldn't be allowed, a recorded letter to whoever is in charge of the dept should see this sorted out.

PCN for 'cloned' number plate. - HGV ~ P Valentine

First off, do not pay it.

As miniman suggested take a picture of your car from all angles ( 4 pics in total ), scan a copy of the v5 certificate confirming the car and take it to the council with a nasty letter.

Make extra copies of pictures just in case they lose them, make sure you get a receipt from the council they received it,

Then wait.

PCN for 'cloned' number plate. - Bromptonaut

First off, do not pay it.

As miniman suggested take a picture of your car from all angles ( 4 pics in total ), scan a copy of the v5 certificate confirming the car and take it to the council with a nasty letter.

Make extra copies of pictures just in case they lose them, make sure you get a receipt from the council they received it,

Then wait.

Once again bad advice from A Driver since 1988, HGV since.

The don't pay is fair enough and indeed essential. If you offer payment at discounted rate you're admitting the infringement and that's that.

However if you want to challenge a Penalty Charge Notice it's important you follow the proper process per the regulations linked to in my post above. Just sending the Council pictures without making it explicit that it constitutes formal representation per Regulation 9 of the The Bus Lane Contraventions (Penalty Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement) (England) Regulations 2005 may not be enough. Use their form and then the position re the regulations is 100% clear.

The risk if proper representations are not made within the time limit set in the Notice to Owner the Council will simply move to enforcement an Vimto will end up with a Bailiff on his doorstep. Once it's with enforcement it's VERY difficult to get it re-opened.