Court referral notification for speeding

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Thu 26 Dec 2019 20:16
Court referral notification for speeding - OceanMan

A couple of months ago I was sent a letter with intention to prosecute for a speeding offence. It was my first offence. The letter said I must respond in 28 days, however, I rang the constabulary (Norfolk) and they were told if I didn't respond in the first 28 days id be sent another automatic Letter giving me an extra 28 days to respond, so I stupidly, didn't respond and didn't open the letter I received because I assumed it was another reminder. However it was a court referral notification. I opened it intending to reply and pay the fixed penalty but now it looks like I'm going to court.

Will the constabulary have recorded my call so I can provei was explicitly told id have an extra month to reply? If so will this work in my favour?

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Thu 26 Dec 2019 20:38
Court referral notification for speeding - RT

Why didn't you respond within the first 28 days, and why did you need to phone them?

Edited by RT on 26/12/2019 at 20:38

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Thu 26 Dec 2019 20:53
Court referral notification for speeding - OceanMan

I don't have a good reason for this. Basically I didn't have money to pay ago e so I was relieved to hear id get an extra 28 days and my plan was to respond then pay the fine after Xmas since I was assured it wouldn't be increased.

The offence now is failing to provide driver information. It was my first speeding offence (72 in a 60) do you have a rough idea how it will go in court? I expect a bigger fine, just don't know how much bigger it'll be

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Thu 26 Dec 2019 20:59
Court referral notification for speeding - RT

I think court fines are dependent on income level.

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Thu 26 Dec 2019 21:00
Court referral notification for speeding - RT

duplicate

Edited by RT on 26/12/2019 at 21:00

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Thu 26 Dec 2019 21:16
Court referral notification for speeding - FiestaOwner
The offence now is failing to provide driver information. It was my first speeding offence (72 in a 60) do you have a rough idea how it will go in court? I expect a bigger fine, just don't know how much bigger it'll be

Think failing to identify the driver is 6 points plus a fine (don't know how much) and an ms90 endorsement on your licence. Insurance companies don't like ms90 endorsements and will hike your insurance premiums substantially for several years.

Suggest you seek specialist help, or post for help on the pepipoo forums.

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Thu 26 Dec 2019 21:21
Court referral notification for speeding - OceanMan
The offence now is failing to provide driver information. It was my first speeding offence (72 in a 60) do you have a rough idea how it will go in court? I expect a bigger fine, just don't know how much bigger it'll be

Think failing to identify the driver is 6 points plus a fine (don't know how much) and an ms90 endorsement on your licence. Insurance companies don't like ms90 endorsements and will hike your insurance premiums substantially for several years.

Suggest you seek specialist help, or post for help on the pepipoo forums.

Thanks for the advice. It's hard to say of course but what is a "substantial" insurance hike? And is there any way I can avoid a ms90? I will look in to speaking to a lawyer early next week.

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Thu 26 Dec 2019 21:56
Court referral notification for speeding - FiestaOwner
Thanks for the advice. It's hard to say of course but what is a "substantial" insurance hike? And is there any way I can avoid a ms90? I will look in to speaking to a lawyer early next week.

Sorry, I don't have the knowledge to answer your questions. I do recommend that you post on the pepipoo forums for help, they are very knowledgeable in this field.

forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=5

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Fri 27 Dec 2019 21:49
Court referral notification for speeding - Middleman

You need to avoid an MS90 endorsement at all costs. It carries six points, a hefty fine and your insurance premiums will be severely affected for five years. To check just how affected, do a couple of dummy quotes adding the endorsement. It would not be surprising to see your premium double.

What you must hope for is that when your court papers arrive (which will be a “Single Justice Procedure Notice” and may take some months to arrive) that you are charged with both the “Failing to Provide Driver’s details (FtP) and speeding. What you must do then is to respond by pleading Not guilty to both charges and attend your court appearance. When you do so, ask to see the prosecutor before you are called into court and offer to plead guilty to speeding only if the FtP charge is dropped. This is a well known procedure which is nearly always accepted. If you cannot see the prosecutor before you are called into court offer to do the deal when you are asked to enter you plea. Do not under any circumstances plead guilty to speeding until you have secured the deal (or you could end up being convicted of both and nine points).

You do not need a lawyer to do this. Save the fees he would charge for your fines.

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Sat 4 Jan 2020 13:48
Court referral notification for speeding - HGV ~ P Valentine

www.motoringoffencesolicitors.co.uk/road-traffic-a.../

www.gov.uk/driving-disqualifications

www.gov.uk/speeding-penalties

I have posted a couple of things that you might think about reading, it was stupid of you to make no response but its to late for that, I do not agree with some of the advice you have been given, which quite frankly is absurd and I will explain why.

Forget about lawyers, they are expensive and you wont get legal aid for this, so save your money for the fine you will almost certainly get.

The fine is fixed depending on how much over the speed limit you where travelling and is not related in any way, manner or form as to how much you can afford, you will just have to find the money from somewhere.

Trying to force the courts into anything is a bad road to go down, you are guilty of both and cannot TELL THEM they must do one or the other, if you give them that attitude they will do you for both, the fact you did not reply will not do you any favours and makes the courts think you did not take them or the notice seriously, so when it gets to court the first thing out of my mouth should be an apology to the court.

Forget about the police, the courts and the police are 2 fingers on the same hand and the court will simply say that ignorance is no excuse, it will look like you are trying to blame them and not take any reponsibility for what you did or did not do.

I wish you luck, but for you a good result would be to get one or the other, but, be prepared for both, if you are lucky then they might put you on a speed awareness course ( which you will have to pay ) costing between £90/£130, but I think that boat sailed.

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Sat 4 Jan 2020 13:50
Court referral notification for speeding - HGV ~ P Valentine

PS If it was possible you could stay on the road then they would have just done a fixed notice, I can only assume they are looking at taking your license off you which might be why it is going to court.

Since you failed to accept the initial speeding fine it went up to 6 pts, the ms90 on its own means they can ban you from driving plus a fine.

I would also advise against getting bogus insurance quotes, the details are retained and passed between insurance brokers.

Edited by A Pro HGV Driver since 1988 on 04/01/2020 at 13:56

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Sat 4 Jan 2020 14:03
Court referral notification for speeding - HGV ~ P Valentine

Correction : Fine can be a percentage of your income.

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Sat 4 Jan 2020 16:11
Court referral notification for speeding - FP

"The fine is fixed depending on how much over the speed limit you where travelling and is not related in any way, manner or form as to how much you can afford, you will just have to find the money from somewhere."

This is not supported by the following (which is from one of the documents you refer to):

"The amount you’re fined depends on what the speed limit was and how much over it you were driving. It’s usually a percentage of your weekly income, up to a maximum of £1,000 (£2,500 if you were driving on a motorway). (From www.gov.uk/speeding-penalties)

As regards the Failure to Inform offence, magistrate's court sentencing guidelines say that the starting point for the fine is 250% of relevant weekly income, with a range of 200 – 300% of relevant weekly income. (From www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/magistrates-...e)

I strongly suggest you read your sources and inform yourself better before dismissing the advice of others who are probably as knowledgeable as you.

P.S. Just spotted the correction above. For some reason the page had not refreshed when I replied.

Edited by FP on 04/01/2020 at 16:13

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Sat 4 Jan 2020 16:18
Court referral notification for speeding - Bromptonaut

I strongly suggest you read your sources and inform yourself better before dismissing the advice of others who are probably as knowledgeable as you.

I strongly suspect that A Driver since 1988, HGV since is the person who previously posted here as 30 Year's A Professional Driver. If I'm right he's a long history for giving advice which is forceful but (I'm being kind here) contentious.

I'd treat it with great caution.

Posters in the old threads that have been revived, viz Westpig and Fullchat, were (pretty sure both are now retired) Police Officers. WP was IIRC an Inspector in the Met. He and I disagreed over a great deal but I'd respect his advice as to Police process.

Edited by Bromptonaut on 04/01/2020 at 16:19

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Sat 4 Jan 2020 19:29
Court referral notification for speeding - Middleman

...you are guilty of both..

The OP cannot be convicted of speeding unless he pleads guilty. Put simply, they have no evidence that he was driving. That comes from his response to the request for driver's details, which he failed to respond to. That is why the offer to do the "deal" I mentioned earlier is his best course of action. He will not be "trying to force the courts into anything" or attempting to "...TELL THEM they must do one or the other," He will be offering the prosecutor the opportunity to do a mutually beneficial deal. It is a tried and tested procedure and is invariably successful.

"...but for you a good result would be to get one or the other, but, be prepared for both, if you are lucky then they might put you on a speed awareness course ( which you will have to pay ) costing between £90/£130, but I think that boat sailed.

This entire paragraph is utterly misleading. Once again, he cannot be convicted on both counts (see above). Speed awareness courses are only offered by the police. They do so as an alternative to either a fixed penalty or court action. The court has no power to order one and since the police have referred the matter to court they cannot now either. Most importantly, of course (and the whole nub of this matter) nobody knows who was driving. A course cannot be offered to A. N. Other. It is wrong to say that the boat has sailed. That particular boat never saw the water.

I can only assume they are looking at taking your license off you which might be why it is going to court.

It's going to court because he has been charged with "Failing to Provide the Driver's Details" (S172). That charge can only be dealt with in court. The police do not "look to take a driver's licence" from him. Whether or not to impose a disqualification is a matter for the court.

You may have been a driver since 1988 but I suggest you are not as familiar with police and court processes as you'd have people believe.

As regards the Failure to Inform offence, magistrate's court sentencing guidelines say that the starting point for the fine is 250% of relevant weekly income, with a range of 200 – 300% of relevant weekly income.

Just a quick correction, FP. From the guidelines you have quoted you will see the recommendation is a "Band C" fine. This is 150% of RWI with a range of 125% to 175%. The offence invariably attracts a fine of 150% RWI (reduced by a third for a guilty plea).

Provided he has been "dual charged" (with both speeding and S172) the OP needs to follow the process I outlined in my earlier post. It occurs in courts up and down England & Wales every day and is well known to prosecutors and Magistrates.

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Thu 9 Jan 2020 13:23
Court referral notification for speeding - HGV ~ P Valentine

You are right I have changed it slightly, so it is 1 and the same. And yes we have had a diff of opinion before and will no doubt have again.

It is a fact that if the legal owner cannot supply details of who was driving, the legal owner of the vehicle will get done for whatever offence was committed by the vehicle, on this very page a guy lent his car to a friend of his brothers and because he could not supply the details of this driver, the car owner got done. It is for this reason that the time and date must be recorded when selling a car, to protect yourself.

Are you seriously trying to tell this man that if he pleads not guilty, they will simply take his word on it ? If he got caught on a camera the only way you can get off the fine is if you can prove that the camera was at fault. And committing a 2nd offence does not let you off the first one, it might be true the courts may give him chance to plead to one or the other, but that is their right to decide if he has the choice and not his right.

" The boat has sailed": defintion= once it went to court this option is no longer available as this option is offered by DVLA, apologies you did not understand what I meant by that.

The police do check the licence, they have to as the address in the licence is the only address they will send communications to, and they must have checked it to get the drivers details. Also if it was a NPRC then the details would have needed " no checking" as such because it would have come up right away on the their computers.

The system is initially checked by the police, and if there is no chance of the driver losing their licence then the police issue a fixed penalty notice, in cases where the driver may possibly lose their licence because of point amassed is =>12 then they may at their choice decide to take you to court.

P.s I did make a correction on myself about the fine being a percentage of your wages.

As copied form another page ( not by me )

Can the DVLA revoke my licence without prior warning or a Court attendance?

Yes. The process is automatic and neither the Police, the DVLA or the Court have any discretion. If you accept a Fixed Penalty Notice which results in 6 points being reached within your first 2 years of driving, your licence will be revoked without any prior warning or a Court appearance.

Do the DVLA, the Police or the Courts have to warn me that my licence could be revoked?

There is no obligation on the part of the authorities to warn you of the process or the fact that you face revocation. It is assumed that you will be familiar with the Road Traffic (New Drivers) Act 1995.

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Thu 9 Jan 2020 13:27
Court referral notification for speeding - HGV ~ P Valentine

Ps It is true I have not been in court over my driving, had a few speeding fines, once doing 31 in a 30 zone, and only 1 traffic light offence where I followed the van in front through the lights.

All times I accepted the fixed penalty, lived with the fine and points for 3 years ( can only be taken off after 4 ). and moved on.

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Thu 9 Jan 2020 13:32
Court referral notification for speeding - HGV ~ P Valentine

Found This

Top tips

  • If you are going to plead not guilty make sure that you have a valid defence. Losing a trial in the magistrates’ court can be an expensive.
  • Prosecutors at court will sometimes drop the charge of failing to provide driver information if you plead guilty to the original offence such as speeding, using a mobile phone or driving through a red traffic light.

Also this

What will happen if I am prosecuted for failing to provide driver details

If you receive fixed penalty for failing to provide driver details

If you agree that you are guilty you can accept the fixed penalty. You will have to pay £200 and 6 penalty points will be endorsed on your driving record. If you do not think that you are guilty then you can contest the charge at court.

Before you decide to contest the charge you should be sure that you have a valid legal defence. A conviction at court will cost much more than £200 and you will still get 6 penalty points.

How long to the police have to prosecute

The police have six months from the date of the offence to start court proceedings by issuing a summons or a postal requisition.

If you receive a postal requisition or summons

…………..……………

At the end of the day mate they are opinions on here from everyone nothing more, you must decide for yourself what to do !

Edited by A Driver since 1988, HGV since on 09/01/2020 at 13:35

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Thu 9 Jan 2020 16:33
Court referral notification for speeding - Middleman

It is a fact that if the legal owner cannot supply details of who was driving, the legal owner of the vehicle will get done for whatever offence was committed by the vehicle,…

You are absolutely and completely wrong. You cannot be convicted of speeding if there is no evidence that you were driving. That has to come (most usually) from either (a) a police officer if the vehicle was stopped at the time or (b) a self-nomination under S172. That is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact. The court has to be sure, beyond reasonable doubt, that the accused was actually driving. If the “legal owner” can get “done” for any offence committed by the vehicle (leaving aside that vehicles do not commit offences, drivers do – hence the need for their identity to be established) then Messrs Hertz and Avis may be a little upset. They never know who is driving their hire cars at any particular time. They can say who they rented them to but that’s not the same thing at all.

...on this very page a guy lent his car to a friend of his brothers and because he could not supply the details of this driver, the car owner got done.

For failing to provide the driver’s details, no doubt.

Are you seriously trying to tell this man that if he pleads not guilty, they will simply take his word on it?

“His word” does not enter into the matter. Until evidence to support his guilt is presented he has nothing to prove. They must prove he was driving at the relevant time and they cannot. As far as speeding goes he has no case to answer. But he should try to conduct the deal I outlined in order to avoid being convicted of Failing to Provide Driver’s details. He is almost certain to be convicted of that if he pleads Not Guilty. He is absolutely certain to be acquitted of speeding if that matter went to trial (which it wouldn’t, because, once again, they cannot prove he was driving). The deal is to his advantage because FtP is a far more serious offence with severe adverse insurance ramifications.

The police do check the licence, they have to as the address in the licence is the only address they will send communications to, and they must have checked it to get the drivers details.

If the car was not stopped at the time, they don’t know who the driver was and the only address they have to send communications to is that of the Registered Keeper. You seem to have a fundamental lack of understanding of how the process of prosecuting a driver who was detected by camera works.

in cases where the driver may possibly lose their licence because of point amassed is =>12 then they may at their choice decide to take you to court.

Unless they are considering offering a Course (which they will still do if (a) the speed is up to Limit + 10% +9mph, (b) the driver has not done a course in the past three years and (c) the offence was not in Scotland) then they will take the matter to court. But they don’t decide “to take your licence off you”. The court does.

Can the DVLA revoke my licence without prior warning or a Court attendance?

Yes. The process is automatic and neither the Police, the DVLA or the Court have any discretion. If you accept a Fixed Penalty Notice which results in 6 points being reached within your first 2 years of driving, your licence will be revoked without any prior warning or a Court appearance.

Do the DVLA, the Police or the Courts have to warn me that my licence could be revoked?

There is no obligation on the part of the authorities to warn you of the process or the fact that you face revocation. It is assumed that you will be familiar with the Road Traffic (New Drivers) Act 1995.

That’s all absolutely correct. But I don’t quite know what the New Drivers Act has got to do with this question

You finish by suggesting the OP should decide whose opinion to follow. The matters you speak of are matters of fact, not of opinion and you have provided incorrect facts and unwise advice. I spend a lot of time in Magistrates’ Courts and I see these matters dealt with regularly. In your earlier post you advised the OP that he is guilty of both speeding and Failing to Provide Drivers details, suggesting he should be prepared to be convicted of both. That is utterly misleading advice. So I will say just once more, he cannot be convicted of speeding as things stand but he is, bar a major cock-up on the part of the police, certain to be convicted of FtP. The deal I outlined is a way to reverse that situation and see a conviction for the lesser offence. That's the advice he should follow based on the facts he has told us about, the law and normal court procedures.

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Mon 13 Jan 2020 14:56
Court referral notification for speeding - HGV ~ P Valentine

I states that if you plead guilty to the speeding fine then they will entertain the idea of not imposing the other offence of failing to report your details, if you plead not guilty and waste their time then the penalty may well include both.

In either case it even tells you in the highway code ( seeding ) that you risk more points if you challenge it, it states 3 pts fixed penalty or 3-6 if you plead not guilty without good reason/proof.

I have posted the link if you wish to read it for yourself.

Edited by A Driver since 1988, HGV 2006 on 13/01/2020 at 15:28

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Thu 9 Jan 2020 23:26
Court referral notification for speeding - Avant

"A driver since 1988" - we appreciate your giving us the benefit of your experience, but I would ask you to check your facts before giving advice on here. Some of what you've said concerns matters of fact rather than just opinions.

The forum doesn't take any responsibility for opinions and advice given, and we don't comment as qualified professionals. But people do look on here for advice as you know, and it's important that as far as possible we don't give advice that's wrong.

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Mon 13 Jan 2020 14:37
Court referral notification for speeding - HGV ~ P Valentine

I have not, and check my info online for the latest info. Secondly I will either post the link or copy it onto this site so my advice is transparent and people can check for themselves, I make a point of doing this where legal advice is asked for.

For example, I copied over the info about the bloke that didn't respond to the speeding fine, and following another opinion that differed from mine I posted the information, copied over from another page that offers legal advice from lawyers, or from an official gov website. In this particular instance the info came from DVLA own site.

Edited by A Driver since 1988, HGV since on 13/01/2020 at 14:53

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Mon 13 Jan 2020 16:48
Court referral notification for speeding - Bromptonaut

For example, I copied over the info about the bloke that didn't respond to the speeding fine, and following another opinion that differed from mine I posted the information, copied over from another page that offers legal advice from lawyers, or from an official gov website. In this particular instance the info came from DVLA own site.

Links please!!

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Mon 13 Jan 2020 17:42
Court referral notification for speeding - Middleman

It states that if you plead guilty to the speeding fine then they will entertain the idea of not imposing the other offence of failing to report your details, if you plead not guilty and waste their time then the penalty may well include both.

Please see my reply on Friday 27th December at 21:49. To save you looking it says this:

What you must do then is to respond by pleading Not guilty to both charges and attend your court appearance. When you do so, ask to see the prosecutor before you are called into court and offer to plead guilty to speeding only if the FtP charge is dropped. This is a well known procedure which is nearly always accepted.

The Not Guilty pleas are only maintained until the case is heard in court. If the OP pleads guilty to speeding without having secured the “deal” (which he can only do by attending court) there is no guarantee that the FtP charge will be dropped. I have seen numerous instances of a defendant doing so and then facing a trial for FtP. Bingo! Nine points! Your suggestion might work but equally it might not. My suggestion will work.

In either case it even tells you in the highway code ( seeding ) that you risk more points if you challenge it, it states 3 pts fixed penalty or 3-6 if you plead not guilty without good reason/proof.

There's no point in prattling on about "Fixed Penalties". By the time the matter reaches court the opportunity for a fixed penalty has long gone. Whilst the court has the power to sentence at the fixed penalty level in certain circumstances they do not apply here.

I imagine that the OP has died of boredom by now but there might be others looking in. If your advice in these circumstances is to plead guilty to speeding in response to a Single Justice Procedure Notice it is dangerous and should be ignored.

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Wed 15 Jan 2020 13:42
Court referral notification for speeding - HGV ~ P Valentine

Check the links I posted which is from a gov website on this very matter. Here it is again. But maybe you are right and the gov website and me are both wrong eh ?

www.gov.uk/speeding-penalties

Edited by A Driver since 1988, HGV 2006 on 15/01/2020 at 13:44

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Wed 15 Jan 2020 14:37
Court referral notification for speeding - Middleman

So what is it you're saying that is in the government advice that conflicts with mine?

That page explains - quite correctly - the situation with a straightforward speeding allegation. The OP (if he or she is still alive) does not face a speeding allegation - straightforward or otherwise.

Edited by Middleman on 15/01/2020 at 14:39

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Thu 16 Jan 2020 14:05
Court referral notification for speeding - HGV ~ P Valentine

Taken from the page I posted.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you’re stopped by the police

If you’re stopped by the police, they can:

  • give you a verbal warning
  • give or send you an FPN
  • order you to go to court - you’ll be sent a letter telling you what to do

Getting a Fixed Penalty Notice

If you get an FPN you can choose to plead guilty or not guilty.

If you plead guilty

You’ll have to pay a £100 fine and have 3 points added to your licence, unless you’re given the option to attend a speed awareness course.

If you pay the fine, how you pay depends on where you were caught speeding. You can:

Your driving licence will have a code on it for 4 years.

You may be given the option of attending a speed awareness course if:

  • the police decide it’s appropriate for your offence
  • you have not been on a speed awareness course in the past 3 years

If you plead not guilty

You’ll have to go to court if you plead not guilty.

You can be fined more and get more penalty points if the court decides you’re guilty of speeding.

The amount you’re fined depends on what the speed limit was and how much over it you were driving. It’s usually a percentage of your weekly income, up to a maximum of £1,000 (£2,500 if you were driving on a motorway).

You could also be disqualified from driving or have your licence suspended.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Looks like allegations of speeding to me ??? Taken from only part of the page.

Edited by A Driver since 1988, HGV 2006 on 16/01/2020 at 14:06

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Thu 16 Jan 2020 15:25
Court referral notification for speeding - Brit_in_Germany

You are overlooking the first line of your citation though.

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Thu 16 Jan 2020 15:52
Court referral notification for speeding - Middleman

Your post (whilst all perfectly correct) is irrelevant and here's why:

If you’re stopped by the police...

The OP was not stopped by the police. If he had been none of his problems (caused by failing to provide the driver's details when asked) would have occurred.

Looks like allegations of speeding to me ???

It was originally. But........

The offence now is failing to provide driver information

(From the OP's second post, 20:53, 26-Dec-19)

Let us know what advice you have for the OP (which might differ from mine) which might help him to address that problem. You continue to harp on about a speeding allegation. That is now parked as nobody knows who was driving (as I have tried - and obviously failed - to emphasise at least three times over the past three weeks).

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Sat 18 Jan 2020 16:03
Court referral notification for speeding - HGV ~ P Valentine

I hope that OM tells us the result of the court case, since that is the only way we shall see who gave him the right advice and the wrong advice.

He still has the option as the link in the page explains to plead guilty to speeding, in which case the court may disregard the charge of failing to produce.

Edited by A Driver since 1988, HGV 2006 on 18/01/2020 at 16:05

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Sat 18 Jan 2020 16:40
Court referral notification for speeding - Bromptonaut

I hope that OM tells us the result of the court case, since that is the only way we shall see who gave him the right advice and the wrong advice.

Unfortunately people rarely return.

He still has the option as the link in the page explains to plead guilty to speeding, in which case the court may disregard the charge of failing to produce.

NO

The best advice is that given by Middleman at 21:49 on 27 December. He needs to plead not guilty to both. He then approaches the prosecutor and offers to plead guilty to the Speeding allegation if the other charge is dropped.

If he just hopes for something he's risking copping the MS90 which is exactly he needs to avoid.

I've not been aware of Middleman posting anything that tells us his professional background but I'm pretty sure he knows his onions when it comes to motoring offences in the magistrates court. He was very helpful with my own questions on here when my son faced a possible 'in charge' offence a couple of years ago.

Edited by Bromptonaut on 18/01/2020 at 16:55

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Sat 18 Jan 2020 17:06
Court referral notification for speeding - Dag Hammar

I hope that OM tells us the result of the court case, since that is the only way we shall see who gave him the right advice and the wrong advice.

Unfortunately people rarely return.

Yes, unfortunately on many occasions we never get to learn the outcome of whatever problem / issue is raised. I too hope that OceanMan does come back and informs us of the final result.

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Sat 18 Jan 2020 17:18
Court referral notification for speeding - Middleman

Thanks Brompton.

Yes I do "know my onions" when it comes to motoring offences. The problem this OP faces is seen up and down the land every day. The way it's dealt with is the way I described. As you say, pleading guilty to the original offence of speeding (if indeed that is put to him, which is by no means guaranteed as I think I mentioned early on) without the "deal" in place may possibly succeed. But it relies on a benevolent prosecutor. Some are, some aren't. Doing the deal guarantees success and I have only heard of it (but have never seen it) being turned down once - and that was due to a stroppy defendant demanding that the prosecutor do this, that and the other. He did. He got him convicted of speeding because the idiot had pleaded guilty to it and then went ahead with a trial for S172 resulting in a second conviction and nine points.

I've largely given up trying to persuade our "HGV Driver" friend of the folly of his advice. I simply do not want anybody to send a SJ notice back pleading guilty to speeding in these circumstances.

I do recall your son's matter. Turned out OK IIRC.

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Wed 22 Jan 2020 13:14
Court referral notification for speeding - HGV ~ P Valentine

As have I and I feel the same about your advice. As I said we shall see what happens in court.

I have posted copies from DVLA, The highway code and clips from specialist solicitors, one of which you will believe. I am not going to keep rearranging the words for you.

I really hope he comes back and tells us how it went.

Regards

Paul P Valentine esq

Edited by A Driver since 1988, HGV 2006 on 22/01/2020 at 13:22

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Wed 22 Jan 2020 16:23
Court referral notification for speeding - Middleman

I don't really want to keep on, but is there any chance that you will tell any of us how, according to you, the OP is expected to deal with a charge of Failing to Provide Driver's Details (FtP) other than in the way I described? You have posted a lot of stuff but nowhere, as far as I can see, have you addressed that simple question. He can be in one of two positions:

1. He has not been charged with speeding. In that case all the stuff you've posted about speeding offences and penalties is irrelevant. Or..

2. He (more probably) has been "dual charged" with both speeding and FtP. In that case (as I've said about a dozen times) he cannot be convicted of speeding without pleading guilty to it as they have no evidence he was driving.

If you want confirmation of the way this problem is generally dealt with, simply go to your local Magistrates' Court on traffic day and you will be almost guaranteed to see a case exactly like this.

This has nothing to do with the Highway Code. Such a situation is not mentioned. If you want to quote some straightforward advice from a solicitor, try this:

thedrivingsolicitor.co.uk/2015/10/21/failing-to-pr.../

Under "Top Tips:"

"Prosecutors at court will sometimes drop the charge of failing to provide driver information if you plead guilty to the original offence..."

It would be great if you would address the OP's actual problem and not something else. Just tell us, in simple words, what do you think he should do? I think I've largely given up with you on this one.

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Thu 30 Jan 2020 12:39
Court referral notification for speeding - HGV ~ P Valentine

I give up.

and if you have read the links and what I have posted then addressing his problem is exactly what I have done. if you choose to not take it in then that's your problem not mine.

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Fri 31 Jan 2020 20:25
Court referral notification for speeding - Middleman

I give up.

Glad to hear it. If you've time take a glance at this thread:

www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/419847-ms906-p.../

It is an example of an almost identical problem to that faced by the OP in this thread. Note the advice given (almost identical to my advice on this thread) and the outcome (which thankfully that OP provided).

Be seeing you!

Edited by Middleman on 31/01/2020 at 20:26

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Sun 2 Feb 2020 18:09
Court referral notification for speeding - HGV ~ P Valentine

"

This is a copy of the article you posted to back up your advice, lol, oh dear me.

"Hi there

I’m afraid you won’t usually have a defence if you didn’t change your address. The exception is if you could prove it didn’t arrive at the old address or if you had mail redirection in place.

The prosecution only have to prove that the notice was sent to the registered keeper at their last known address.

It doesn’t matter whether you received it personally, but obviously if you can prove it did not arrive at that address (which is difficult if you don’t live there) then you would have a defence that it was not reasonably practicable for you to respond. The same applies if you had mail redirection in place.

If you do not have a defence, It is still worth going to court because your fine should be re-calculated in accordance with your income. It is likely the fine will be reduced significantly.

One other thing to think about if you were the one driving, is to ask the prosecution if they would accept a plea to the original speeding allegation, and in return withdraw the failing to give the driver details offence. If they do this you may end up with fewer points, depending on the speed alleged. This is entirely at their discretion but many police forces will do it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Edit:

This person has come onto our forum and has tried to spam people on the basis that she is a lawyer. We would advise anybody to avoid anybody – a lawyer or any other professional who has to resort to this kind of practice."

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Sun 2 Feb 2020 18:10
Court referral notification for speeding - HGV ~ P Valentine

Ps. I would stop now you are making yourself look silly.

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Sun 2 Feb 2020 20:25
Court referral notification for speeding - Middleman

This is a copy of the article you posted to back up your advice, lol, oh dear me.

"Hi there

I’m afraid you won’t usually have a defence if you didn’t change your address. The exception is if you could prove it didn’t arrive at the old address or if you had mail redirection in place. etc.

Those words are not mine. They were posted by an unregistered guest contributor. I am a registered user on that site and you will probably recognise my advice if you look properly.

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Sun 2 Feb 2020 23:46
Court referral notification for speeding - FP

Paul - the message above and the one before that, both from you - are making you look extremely silly. You need to read the whole thread quoted and sort out the stupid from the sensible posts. Look hard at this:

"FEEDBACK FROM COURT HEARING

A big thank you to all especially @ THE MAN IN THE MIDDLE for the advice and patience in explaining the statutory declaration to me.

Had my appointment in court today, pleaded guilty to the speeding offence while the FTP offence was dropped."

"Man in the middle"... Middleman... There may be a connection, don't you think?

It's not the first example in recent discussions that suggests you don't seem to read carefully and thoroughly enough.

I hate to criticise, but I think you are out of your depth here.

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Mon 3 Feb 2020 15:19
Court referral notification for speeding - Gerry Sanderson

Interesting of a plea to speeding. Did they summon for failing to name driver AND also speeding.?

As I understand it they cannot prove speed offence as they do not have evidence of who the driver was until they get the notification back with the drivers details. No return of form then no evidence who driver was, but offence not to return.

Nevertheless in this caae they got their pound of flesh in a conviction

DVD

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Mon 3 Feb 2020 16:28
Court referral notification for speeding - Middleman

Interesting of a plea to speeding. Did they summon for failing to name driver AND also speeding.?

Almost certainly. The OP did not report any problems in that respect.

As I understand it they cannot prove speed offence as they do not have evidence of who the driver was until they get the notification back with the drivers details.

Correct.

No return of form then no evidence who driver was, but offence not to return.

Correct again. That's why it's important not to plead guilty until you have an assurance that the "Fail to Provide Driver's Details" will be dropped.

Nevertheless in this caae they got their pound of flesh in a conviction

Well, an offence was committed and a conviction and sentence resulted. If you consider that to be a "pound of flesh" I suppose you're right. The important thing is that they did not get two pounds of flesh, which was a possibility if some of the advice on this thread had been followed.

Edited by Middleman on 03/02/2020 at 16:30

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Tue 4 Feb 2020 15:21
Court referral notification for speeding - Gerry Sanderson

Thank you Conf. Middleman

Glasshopper DVD plesed you aglee.

Rgds

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Tue 18 Feb 2020 08:24
Court referral notification for speeding - OceanMan

Yikes, this thread has taken on a life of its own. I completely forgot to give an update, sorey. Luckily I was just able to get onto a speed awareness course and was able to avoid the MS90. The letter I referred to in the Op Was just a strongly worded reminder. Thanks a lot for all the answers

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Tue 18 Feb 2020 21:29
Court referral notification for speeding - Penumbra

Good outcome and thanks for the follow-up. Now who shall I trust for advice in the future; Middleman or .......... no, just Middleman I think.

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Wed 19 Feb 2020 11:16
Court referral notification for speeding - FP

Thank you, OM, for updating us and for, in effect, settling the argument about the best course of action to take in the circumstances.

I'm glad the outcome for you was relatively painless.

I wonder if A Driver since 1988, HGV 2006 will make a comment. After all, he did say in the post above dated Sat 18 Jan 2020 16:03: "I hope that OM tells us the result of the court case, since that is the only way we shall see who gave him the right advice and the wrong advice."

He also accused those who were offering advice contrary to his of making themselves "look silly".

Any comment?

Edited by FP on 19/02/2020 at 11:17

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Thu 20 Feb 2020 19:50
Court referral notification for speeding - OceanMan

I haven't read the full exchanges in what seems to have been aheated debate, but I should say that I didn't actually follow any of the advice on this thread. Not because I didn't appreciate the answers, just because it was unnecessary as my case was never actually referred to court (it was just strongly implied that it would be on the letter I referenced in the OP), so I was able to just request a SAC easily. I can't comment on what would have been the best course of action to take if that wasn't an option.

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Sat 29 Feb 2020 16:02
Court referral notification for speeding - HGV ~ P Valentine

I am glad it got sorted out.

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