UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - SlidingPillar

Are you aware the forthcoming changes to the UK driving licence put three wheelers in the motor bike category? (Existing drivers are grandfathered - ie keep existing rights).

This means for new drivers, they would have to go through the tiered motorbike access route to be able to drive their parent’s Morgan, Reliant (Del boys' Reliant van included) and several other vintage types as well as the new Morgan three wheeler.

This puts a new minimum driving age of 21 for those taking the tiered access route and 24 for those taking the direct access route. As opposed to the unchanged age of 17 for cars that they were expecting.

My 1930 Morgan in theory has a maximum speed of 80mph and is about the fastest standard type. I seriously dispute a bike licence, however good, qualifies one to drive what is really a car with one fewer wheel.
The new situations regulations are summed up here:
www.nidirect.gov.uk/index/information-and-services...m

True it's the Northern Ireland version, but I think the rules across the UK are the same and the English web site only shows the current rules. The pages showing the changes having bitten the dust in the recent relaunch of many goverment pages.

A suitable outcome would be for car bodied three wheelers (the definition exists in construction and use regulation) to be declared to be cars , but it is way past any consultations.

Another way would be to give new class B (car) licence holders the same class A limited to trikes that will appear on exist class B licence holders licences when they renew. That however I'd have thought contrary to the spirit of the third European Driving Licence directive that started all this.

Note to mods - this is not a legal question but a more general statement

Edited by SlidingPillar on 06/11/2012 at 10:31

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - RT

This change will affect very few new drivers who wish to drive 3-wheelers - as you've correctly identified the existing drivers are protected by "grandfather" rights - indeed new drivers wanting/needing to drive 3-wheelers may well be "petrol-headed" enough to want/need to pass their bike tests anyway.

These changes are being made to bring new UK licence entitlements in line with Europe, in preparation for the introduction of Euro-licences in place of UK licences.

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - Bromptonaut

If this is European then I suspect the target is those 3 wheel buggy type things that would once have been based on VeeDub aircooled running gear. Quite common as hobby/fun rides in Germany and france.

I doubt Reliants and and other legacy vehicles were in the reckonnig.

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - SlidingPillar

Which is why I suggest the 'car bodied' definition is used. To my knowledge that would encompass all the legacy type vehicles and none of what you call 'buggies'.

I'd not want to suggest the steering wheel as a definer as some very early cars and trikes were tiller steering.

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - Collos25

I very much doubt that it has origins in Europe the UK laws are so out of sync with the rest of Europe its unbelievable.

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - SlidingPillar

Google 2006/126/EC

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - jamie745

I very much doubt that it has origins in Europe the UK laws are so out of sync with the rest of Europe its unbelievable.

Most of the UK's laws are made by the European Union so my money would be on this having something to do with those unelected communists in Brussells again.

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - SlidingPillar

OK, I'll do the work for you. It's a result of 2006/126/EC, also called the Third Driving Licence Directive.

EC directives have to form part of national law, and the changes in January next year are the result of the implementation of said directive.

I think though while the EuroBureaucrats are to blame for a lot of the words, the actual adoption or not of a proposal is down to the MEPs.

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - jamie745

The European Parliament is akin to the House of Lords in the way it's an amending chamber. The unelected Eurocrats decide what legislation to put forward and the MEP's can merely change bits. If anything is rejected the Eurocrats just rename it and push it through anyway - Lisbon Treaty.

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - FP

"Most of the UK's laws are made by the European Union..."

Is that a fact?

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - jamie745

Yes it is actually. Most laws enacted every year stem from the EU. The vast majority may be small, unnoticed and ultimately unenforced but plenty of them aren't and that's the point.

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - Collos25

Your reading to much of the Daily Mail and worst of all you believe it.

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - jamie745

I've never picked up a copy of the Daily Mail but I do read facts. Better than the German communist dream of a centrally controlled Europe akin to Soviet Russia which you - and career politicians - peddle.

Good day to you.

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - Collos25

Your reading to much of the Daily Mail and worst of all you believe it.Lets analyse UK driving law the UK drives on the left ,the UK uses mph ,the UK driving licence is address based,UK speed limits are different ,the MOT is completely different,UK driving penalties are unique to the UK and so on, the UK does not have much in common with mainland EU Europe as far as driving laws are concerned in fact it does not have much in common with the EU full stop whether this is good thing or not I wouldn't know not being a UK citizen.

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - jamie745

We've managed to maintain some sovereignty over our motoring laws despite Brussells attempting to impose it's own measures. The UK has too much in common with the EU because it is part of it. The EU is run by people who wouldn't look out of place standing beside Stalin and Germany in particular is run by people hell bent on preserving their political dream and pet project. They are crippling economies, driving manufacturing to Asia, entrenching people in state dependency and fundamentally are going far further than what the British people voted for in the 1970s.

Edited by Avant on 07/11/2012 at 00:26

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - Collos25

This is not the place to have a political discusion but you are so wrong a typical Daily Mail reader and believer.Thank God you are in a minority.

Edited by Collos25 on 06/11/2012 at 18:26

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - jamie745

Writing off anybody who questions the European socialist dream project - the EU - as a Daily Mail reader is the politics of those who can't make a serious argument. I'm pretty fed up of that sort of politics in this country but thankfully polls are now showing the people are seeing through it. Whenever you mention immigration figures there's always socialists quick to call you extremist or 'daily mail reader' in an attempt to deflect attention from reality and discredit hard facts.

UKIP's ranking in polls for general election - not European - have tripled in two years. The majority of the British people want out of the EU. We don't want unelected Eurocrats making our laws. We don't like the UK being barred from doing it's own trade negotiations by the EU. We don't like the fact the EU say our taxpayers money must go to Polish immigrants in benefits. We don't like the fact immigration is at uncontrollable levels due to an irresponsible open door policy. We don't like the fact our parents in the 70s voted for a common market and received a socialist project of political unity. We don't like people we've never voted for in an institution we've never had a say in meddling into our country and telling us what to do. We don't like the fact we can't fish in our own waters and keep the fish we catch and we also don't like the fact the EU costs us an absolute fortune and gives us absolutely zero benefit.

Great men died in two World Wars to preserve our liberty. If they could see a British Prime Minister going to unelected Eurocrats asking if we can keep more of our own money, those great men who served in the trenches would be wondering why they bothered.

Anyway. End of political discussion. Lost interest in you now.

Edited by jamie745 on 06/11/2012 at 18:54

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - Collos25

Great men died in two World Wars to preserve our liberty. If they could see a British Prime Minister going to unelected Eurocrats asking if we can keep more of our own money, those great men who served in the trenches would be wondering why they bothered.

In your last rant you were saying that these people had little or no use in the UK being pensioners now I wish you would make your mind up.

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - jamie745

Most people who fought in the war are now dead. Todays pensioners didn't fight in anything. They're the children of those who fought in the war.

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - the quiet man

Oh my lord ! Does nurse know you`re out on your own again ?

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - RT

Yes it is actually. Most laws enacted every year stem from the EU. The vast majority may be small, unnoticed and ultimately unenforced but plenty of them aren't and that's the point.

Much, possibly most, recent law has originated in the EU but that's still a drop in the ocean compared to UK law in general - although motoring law has seen more EU changes than general law.

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - Collos25

Name the ones that have come from the EU and the ones that have come from the UK.

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - jamie745

I don't have time to waste on that but I will tell you from experience that the vast majority of employment law and regulations comes from the EU. Regulations around pollution and energy are from the EU - which will drive manufacturing to Asia due to Europes demonisation of carbon dioxide. Laws around what constitutes State Aid come from the EU and not from Westminster. Laws around our benefits system come from the EU - who are now considering whether Osbornes proposed child benefit changes are illegal under their law. What on earth has it got to do with them?

Even silly things like those pop ups on websites telling you about their cookies policy only exist because the EU says websites - UK websites - must do that.

I'm not saying exit from the EU won't result in us having a useless Government which will enact stupid things. I'm saying without the EU bossing us around, our votes will actually be able to get rid of the cretins who do stupid things in Westminster and replace them with something else. Frankly general elections in this country mean nothing anymore because the Prime Minister is a Line Manager at best because of the EU's influence. Law isn't made by the people we get to vote for, it's decided by that evil little Bond villain Mr Borosso and his mate Van Rumple or whatever his name is.

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - galileo

With you 100% Jamie, well summarised!

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - Ethan Edwards

Ditto Jamie - you da man!

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - Bromptonaut

I don't have time to waste on that but I will tell you from experience that the vast majority of employment law and regulations comes from the EU.

Laws around our benefits system come from the EU - who are now considering whether Osbornes proposed child benefit changes are illegal under their law. What on earth has it got to do with them?

Can you exemplify where our employment law is form EU? LArge swathes of stuff on ending the employment relationship, changing the criteria for access to Tribunals and the way the ET itself operate have come straight from Westminster.

And is there a source for the story about Child Benefit - I suppose it might engage directives on Equality. But I'm not hearing cries from Brussels while IDS dismembers our system.

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - FP

'"Most of the UK's laws are made by the European Union..."

Is that a fact?'

Unsurprisingly, Jamie's later posts are full of assertion, short on evidence.

I can refer him to a research paper produced by the House of Commons entitled How much legislation comes from Europe? Here it is:

www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/RP10-62

The paper states that 186 of the 1,302 Acts passed by Parliament between 1980 and 2009 (14.3 per cent) were influenced in some way by EU obligations.

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - jamie745

The paper states that 186 of the 1,302 Acts passed by Parliament between 1980 and 2009 (14.3 per cent) were influenced in some way by EU obligations.

Classic piece of Governmental misdirection and unsurprisingly this report was produced by the previous Labour Gov so is probably 100% inaccurate. They don't tell you EU regs are converted into UK law without the HoC voting on them. For instance the Working Time Directive is not in your 14.3%. The HoC library in 2010 found the UK adopts 3,000 EU regs a year. Most of them don't affect anybody - such as ones governing classification of padded jackets - which just merely proves we're spending £50million a day for cronies to sit in a big building in Belgium and make law which doesn't matter. Don't forget this lot in Belgium haven't had their accounts signed off by auditors for 18 years in a row now. But they keep spending our money anyway.

The Bruges Group study of 2008 showed British business spends £30bn a year just to comply with EU regulations - that's all the stuff which isn't in your 14.3% - and we lost £3bn worth of fish in 2008 because the EU orders us to throw it back in the sea. For years Mr Blair told us the 'benefits of membership were self evident' and we didn't even need a study into the figures. The truth is calculating what percentage of law comes from the EU is pointless, what we need to know is how much of it affects us and how it affects us. Agriculture is the industry most hampered by the EU, the likes of Defra see 50% of their obligations coming out of Brussells. Everybody has their own figures for how much law comes from the EU, my view is whether it's 14.3% or 84% it's too much.

LArge swathes of stuff on ending the employment relationship, changing the criteria for access to Tribunals and the way the ET itself operate have come straight from Westminster.

The previous Labour Government made laws at a record pace. Some of them were silly things about doing improper things with eggs but many actually do matter and I've never said a British Government free of the EU won't do stupid things. They obviously do.

And is there a source for the story about Child Benefit - I suppose it might engage directives on Equality. But I'm not hearing cries from Brussels while IDS dismembers our system.

I believe the EU have problems with equality directives in regard to the idea of a cap at two children. The fact is it's our money, not theirs and if the Chancellor of the UK wants to cut child benefit he should be free to do so. Just as we should be free to either vote in approval of that in 2015 or vote to kick him out in 2015.

Unfortunately that big ugly building in Belgium now essentially means our votes mean nothing anyway. Doesn't matter who wins in 2015. I don't even care if Labour get back in because it's merely a badge on a suit. We're governed by people we don't vote for in Belgium.

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - FP

"The paper states that 186 of the 1,302 Acts passed by Parliament between 1980 and 2009 (14.3 per cent) were influenced in some way by EU obligations.

Classic piece of Governmental misdirection and unsurprisingly this report was produced by the previous Labour Gov so is probably 100% inaccurate."

Priceless!

I actually think Jamie has a point, but shoots himself in the foot by using this sort of thoughtless language - in the same way as when he said most UK law comes from Brussels. It probably doesn't.

"Everybody has their own figures for how much law comes from the EU, my view is whether it's 14.3% or 84% it's too much."

That's more like it. And I agree.

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - jamie745

The report is talking about acts passed by Parliament, as in Acts tabled and then voted on by our elected people. I'm talking about all the rules and regulations which are imposed on us which never get anywhere near our House of Commons. For instance those rules governing the classification of padded jackets - which British business has to comply with - have nothing to do with Westminster.

"Everybody has their own figures for how much law comes from the EU, my view is whether it's 14.3% or 84% it's too much."

That's more like it. And I agree.

The previous Govt told us it was 9%, that report says 14%, a German President said it was 80%, Dan Hannan says 84%, UKIP say 75% as does a former German Chancellor, David Cameron says it's 50%. They can't all be right but I don't really care, they're all too high. I think it depends on what you classify as law when you're studying it - commonlaw, secondary law etc - and what you deem legislation - are working hour directives deemed legislation for instance?

For the record I have no problem with the European Community - which my distant ancestors voted for - getting together and agreeing basic minimum standards for vehicle safety, electronic legislation and that sort of thing. What I object to is £11billion of our money going to a bunch of faceless suits intent on wrecking the lives of millions purely to preserve their socialist dream of a centrally controlled Europe. Mr Boroso and his mate Van Rumple want a centrally controlled European Police Force, flag, anthem, foreign policy and the former is already using words like 'Federal Europe.'

They're not even pretending anymore, they don't hide their intentions now. Let's get the hell out of this thing.

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - Collos25

Out of whatever percent are they all bad acts I think not.You seem to forget conveniently that the UK is a member state and many of the so called laws originate from the UK.You say you cannot be bothered to list the motoring laws with EU origins why not can't you find any.And the employment protection laws that are available which the UK always wants to water down so as to protect the wealthy and stand on the workers.Typical Daily Mail reader.

Edited by Collos25 on 07/11/2012 at 20:18

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - jamie745

Not true at all. Many employment regulations prevent people getting work in the first place. If each employee comes with a mountain of red tape and possible legal action, I'm less inclined to hire people generally aren't I? Just like higher taxes mean more money going to the Government and less left over to employ people with. Employers NI needs abolishing right away.

Many of the laws may protect people lucky enough to have a job but in the case of womens rights you could argue it actually harms their prospects. We've layered the law with all sorts of womens rights stuff yet it's not changed the fact they earn less. In some cases the law makes a woman 21-35 a financial risk to a business in ways a man isn't.

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - Smileyman

Employer NI should not be abolised - it's 13.8% of the employee's income (with upper and lower threshold limits) that goes to our dear Gov to pay the massive raft of benefits we all receive (don't you, someone does and it's not me) .... why should shareholders get this boost to their P&L account? I support it only if the funds 'saved' become added to the employees salary, or used to fund more staff / trainees etc.

I do agree there are far too many regulations coming from Brussels, unlike other countries here in they UK they do tend to reach statue and get enforced, perhaps it is time to put a hold on all EU funding until their past 18 years worth of accounts are signed off by the auditors.

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - Neville 23

It will also, of course, result in an increase in the number of tests for which a charges are made - another stealth tax. An European driving licence is a dubious benefit as the difference in the UK due to driving on the left is profound and should be recognised by some check in continental motorists arriving and driving in the UK as if they were at home. Or is that going to be harmonised as well?

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - RT

It will also, of course, result in an increase in the number of tests for which a charges are made - another stealth tax. An European driving licence is a dubious benefit as the difference in the UK due to driving on the left is profound and should be recognised by some check in continental motorists arriving and driving in the UK as if they were at home. Or is that going to be harmonised as well?

Why - they don't check our driving if we go anywhere!

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - TeeCee

My 1930 Morgan in theory has a maximum speed of 80mph and is about the fastest standard type. I seriously dispute a bike licence, however good, qualifies one to drive what is really a car with one fewer wheel.

If I recall correctly, nothing changes here, as a Motorcycle license has always covered three-wheelers. The reason the Reliant "plastic pig" sold was that a holder of only a motorcycle license could drive one.

The change would appear to be that holding only a car license now rules out three-wheelers, putting them firmly in the one category rather than both.

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - SlidingPillar

If I recall correctly, nothing changes here, as a Motorcycle license has always covered three-wheelers. The reason the Reliant "plastic pig" sold was that a holder of only a motorcycle license could drive one.

The change would appear to be that holding only a car license now rules out three-wheelers, putting them firmly in the one category rather than both.

Not quite so for the first sentance, but true for the second. A current full car licence covers one to drive what is essentially a car - ie Del boy's van, my Morgan etc and a motorbike with three wheels, ie a Harley with a rear axle conversion. These are all group B1 vehicles although you can still currently have a heavier three wheeler in group B. A bike licence pass no longer gives you group B1 (ceased in 2000 I think), but a car licence pass does - until next year when B1 as a group ceases to exist.

Three wheelers comprise two basic types of machine. Those that are essentially a car with a wheel missing, and those that are essential a motorbike with a wheel added. The former is called "car bodied" and requires two headlights, the latter "motorcycle bodied" and requires one headlight.

It's the first group that causes the new anomally, the second is arguably reasonable.

Edited by SlidingPillar on 08/11/2012 at 12:59

UK driving licence changes - from 19 January 2013 - TeeCee

Actually I was more confident about the first, so I went and looked it up.

As you say, prior to 1/2/2001 a motorcycle license also included category B1 entitlement, a 3 or 4 wheeled vehicle of 550kg or less. Most three wheelers fall under this. Smaller "quadricycle" vehicles also do, but losing a wheel and its suspension, brakes, etc can squeeze a larger vehicle into that weight bracket.

Hence the "plastic pig".

 

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