Hi,I'm not sure why dealers don't respond to general phone /questionnaire enquiries,although its always been so ,it was the same thirty years ago when I first started in the trade.
I do know, that if you ask for a part exchange price ,or a discount off your purchase .Most dealers will be reluctant to give that information ,especially over the phone or by fax.
My guess is that they would regard it as a waste of time,as you would simply use that information to prise a better deal from your local dealer or as price comparison with a different manufacturer.
If you wanted a more posative response from dealers , can I suggest that you do as much research on the Internet as possible.
Decide which car you want .Then go the dealer tell him you're intereted in their car,have a test drive,and negotiate a deal. The dealers will be keen to deal with you if you come across as a genuine buyer not a tyre kicker. I worked for Toyota ,mercedes,jaguar and Saab.
I got endless visits from potential buyers who hadn't a clue what they wanted ,and were reluctant to tell me what their budget was.
The response we got to a polite ,how can we help ,Was often, can I have a test drive,can I have a brochure,and can you tell me what my cars worth.No matter how pleasantly they asked ,we were always reluctant to waste an hour with them
,it meant we were not available when a genuine buyer came into the showroom to negotiate a deal.
As always theirs another side to the coin,I have a nice Audi a3 diesel for sale ,I had a phone enquiry on the car from a guy who lived 60 miles away,I gave him a price on his fiesta subject to seeing it ,he seemed happy with the price,We made an appointment for the following day.
He ring me twice more during the day to confirm a time and directions,each phone call took ten minutes of my time.
He didn't turn up,he didn't ring to apologise,I tried to ring him, his phone was switched off.
That happens a lot ,that's why car dealers can be cynical or seem disinterested when you make ,a just looking,but can I have, enquiry.
Regards
Tony g
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If I were a dealer, I would not bother. I would imagine about 50% of enquiries they get are from people who have no intention of buying..
How to identify the 50% is a different matter.
Most dealers think I am in that category.. They are usually correct - as I tell them upfront.
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If I were a dealer, I would not bother. I would imagine about 50% of enquiries they get are from people who have no intention of buying.
How are you going to know that if you dont bother? And why would you not bother? You're at work to sell cars, do you have something else to do which prevents you sending an email?
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Sales is like that I'm afraid, not everyone buys. Get used to it. I'm not a salesman but I sell and promote my company and what we can do every single day, loads of people don't buy. it doesn't make them all timewasters but I'm sure some are. There again, some aren't and they help me keep my business healthy.
If you have the product or idea to get through the door then people buy the person first and then the product. Sending an e-mail is not selling, in my book it's not even doing business.
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Although the point about time-waters is a fair one, it is also double edged.
For instance take me as an example, I am a genuine buyer - I have to buy a larger car and have explained to dealers why. I have also been quite clear as to what I like and dislike about their models, and what I expect from them as a dealer. However, I have been messed about by them and not the other way round. Audi for instance are just aweful with communication. I sent 2 requests for a test drive and got no response after over a month. I sent a request to another dealer about a used car, and got a call a month later (probably only because he hadnt sold it), then when I asked him to send the details across he just didnt bother. At least with Honda they have got me in the showroom and bothered to talk, although the one that I have seen so far basically took the P and wasted my time.
IMHO dealerships need to pull their fingers out. Its part of the job to deal with timewaters as well as paying customers, so they should just get on with it. We all have frustrations in our jobs, but it doesnt mean we just dont bother. Some people wonder why they or their industry is struggling....maybe they should look closer to home.
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V O R
You raise some interesting points ,you say you're disappointed in audis response.
Had you decided to buy an Audi or were you still fishing for information,you say you requested a test drive twice .Did you ring the local dealer and make an appointment to test drive a car.Or just do the lazy thing and fill in an online request.
If you had done your research, you would know if you wanted to negotiate a deal with Audi or Mercedes or Honda or whoever.
That's why don't get much of a response from car dealers ,they are looking for the genuine buyer who wants to negotiate a deal on a car they have to offer.
From your post you appear to have been looking for a car for two months ,the information on any car is readily available ,it should be easy to make a decision on what model in two weeks ,why two months?
You also enquired about a used a car ,the dealer didn't respond to your enquiry for more information ,what more did you need.The dealer advertised it ,you read his add ,everything else you require is available on the Internet.
(it's part of the job to deal with time wasters )
Only as long as it takes to move them on , Billy no mates who are lost for something to do ,prevent salespeople from giving time to genuine buyers .
Sales people are always under pressure to perform three months poor performance is all the time they get before they are sacked.
The reason the industry is struggling ,is the economy is struggling .
Record unemployment plus people in employment are reluctant to commit to a purchase ,they could be out of work next.
The Honda dealer that took the P ,did you ask why he was so far from the deal you wanted, or did you just walk away and grumble at home .perhaps he could have explained the basis of his offer.
If he was a long way from the price you wanted on your part exchange ,do you
Know what your cars trade value really is.
Look at what similar cars are retailing at on auto trader or e bay ,knocking a thousand off that will give you a realistic idea of your cars true trade value.
Guides like parkers and glasses just arent accurate enough.
Regards
Tony g
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Only as long as it takes to move them on , Billy no mates who are lost for something to do
That's probably about 75% of people mooching round dealerships on a Saturday afternoon!
Two months to buy a car indeed. That's timewasting.
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I have a certain sympathy with some dealers, as we see here some people want their cake and eat it.
They want to go to a nice showroom, sit in and play with the cars on display, get optimistic offers for their present jalopy, be supplied with all of their whims all the information all the brochures, and no doubt test drive for hours any car that takes their fancy etc.
Then after all this they expect the same deal as they could get from an internet seller who provides...er...a website, if they don't get the same deal they buy from the internet.
Well carry on you lot, take the proverbial out of the good dealers, let them do all the work and then buy from the internet, or screw the dealer down till the pips squeak.....but remember when your car goes wrong 6 months out of warranty, your first point of call should be the internet site (fat lot of good that will do you), for if i was a dealer i would be simultaneously amused and insulted if you expected me to pull all the strings to sort it out for you.
There are bad dealers, usually selling cars from makers who couldn't give a stuff for their customers, and there are good dealers who do care about and wish to retain their customers and sell cars made by companies with similar views.
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But that's how it's meant to work - some 60% of new car sales are to fleets or business users, virtually all of these have to get information and test drives from dealers but then go back to their fleet manager or leasing company and leave them to actually source the car. These are the "buyers" that the glass palaces are for.
So why can't private buyers get the same information and test drives and still be able to get competitive prices?
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RT,
You're right about the company car brigade.
Sales reps would turn up ,usually unannounced, on a sat or Sunday ,which were our best selling days,
They usually wanted to see a particular car in a particular colour and test drive it.
They wanted a brochure and price list ,cost to the dealer about £7.and would waste an hour of a salesmans time with a test drive.
We had no chance of getting any business from the effort we put in ,simply because the company car buyer went back to his company fleet manager ,who placed the order through one of the huge contract hire companies ,such as Zenith who bought direct from the manufacturer.
Remember dealers for whatever manufacturer ,are not manufacturer owned.
They are independently owned.
Regards
Tony g
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RT, You're right about the company car brigade. Sales reps would turn up ,usually unannounced, on a sat or Sunday ,which were our best selling days, They usually wanted to see a particular car in a particular colour and test drive it. They wanted a brochure and price list ,cost to the dealer about £7.and would waste an hour of a salesmans time with a test drive. We had no chance of getting any business from the effort we put in ,simply because the company car buyer went back to his company fleet manager ,who placed the order through one of the huge contract hire companies ,such as Zenith who bought direct from the manufacturer. Remember dealers for whatever manufacturer ,are not manufacturer owned. They are independently owned. Regards Tony g
Tony g - the industry as a whole survives on that business model so why can't it be extended to private purchasers? Indeed there wouldn't be much of a secondhand business if there weren't a constant supply of 1/2/3 year old ex-lease cars and a mentality of changing cars frequently.
My understanding of car sales in mainland Europe is that there's a much higher % of private purchasers of new cars and they keep them much longer, typically 7 years I've seen quoted.
So why does the British car trade need this constant churn of cars - I guess the answer's obvious, so they get a slice of profit each time a car is sold during it's life rather than just once.
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Tony g...
No I didnt decide 100% that I wanted to buy an Audi, and the reason for this is that the dealers I have been to have not had the model available to even look at. So That is why I contacted a couple via email and web based queries, simply because I knew they had none in to test drive at that exact time. So therfore as a potential customer I expect a call back even if its just a 2 minute courtesy call.
My research at first did push me to thinking I did want an Audi, but because of the lack of feedback that I was offered, I then decided to see what else was out there, as well as seeing the positive of saving some money of I bought a similar car from another manufacturer. If Audi moved quicker and more positively then I may have been more encouraged to go for one.
The one time I did speak to a human from Audi (and by now I gained some interest in the Honda), the salesline I got was that "we dont have to encourage people to buy our cars, because we are Audi and a premium badge". WOW that really impresses me, and I now am DESPERATE to buy one of your cars!! Thats the sought of weak and pathetic attitude I got.
As for was I looking for two months - no I wasnt looking for two months, I was thinking about what I was going to do and researching the options available - just like any sensible buyer would do. What do you want me to do, look a car up online and then say "Thats the one! I must have it!" ?? Im a sensible man who is also a very busy man, and only gets a couple of hours each weekend to do anything. So I like to know where I stand and actually see the car I may end up buying.
So as for the "was I just lazy" comment - no, im busy and live in an era when electronic communication is the norm...well at least in our world.
As for what my car is worth, YES I do have a fair idea of what its worth and what I should be offered. Im not stupid and the offer that I was given by a particular Honda dealer was disgusting and very lazy. Basically I worked out what his game was. He basically did a look-up on webuyanycar and offered me that. He was thousands away from what I should be able to sell it for privately, not just hundreds.
Now lets get onto the reason the industry is suffering shall we...Firstly yes everyone is being that bit tighter and worried about their jobs etc etc. So surely we should all be working that bit harder to make sure we do enough to keep our jobs?? Maybe not if you are an arrogant and lazy car salesman who thinks the money is going to land on your desk. If you need to spend an hour a day going through emails and following up on leads, no matter how likely or unlikely they may be, then thats what you should do!
Let me tell you, the times I have been in a showroom, they havent been overrun with custom. I certainly didnt see people lining up behind desks waiting to get seen. In fact everytime I have been the only person around, so that should tell you something. It should also mean that the salesman should try and do his best to make me want his car.
Not even showing me around a car or taking me out in one before talking about numbers is just lazy IMHO.
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Hi vor
(simply because I knew they had none in to test drive at that exact time. So therfore as a potential customer I expect a call back .)
Really ,you knew at that exact moment they didn't have
the car you wanted to test drive ,how. If you wanted to test drive that Audi ,why not ring your Audi dealer and fix a time to test drive drive it.
(As for was I looking for two months - no I wasnt looking for two months, I was thinking about what I was going to do )
That's an awful lot of thinking !it's still two months ,I don't suppose you've bought a car even now.
(So as for the "was I just lazy" comment - no, im busy and live in an era when electronic communication is the norm...well at least in our world.)
Another name for it is the information super highway,a great place to research
what you need to know,especially if you're that busy.
(As for what my car is worth, YES I do have a fair idea of what its worth and what I should be offered. Im not stupid and the offer that I was given by a particular Honda dealer was disgusting and very lazy. He was thousands away from what I should be able to sell it for privately, Maybe not if you are an arrogant and lazy car salesman who thinks the money is going to land on your desk. )
He was thousands away from I could sell it for privately, that's the pinnacle that confirms the whole discussion ,why would you expect a dealer to give you retail value for a car ,that you want to part exchange with him .
Part exchange is the value that dealers give for part exchanges .Not retail value.
After all that research ,you haven't understood that?
Regards
Tony g
Edited by tony g on 18/01/2012 at 23:00
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I am a bit shocked / surprised by Tony G's attitude. I'm in total agreement with VOR & Jamie & Buster', but to respond to some of Tony G's earlier comments,;
'The dealers will be keen to deal with you if you come across as a genuine buyer not a tyre kicker.'
I do hate that phrase, exactly what qualifies them as a tyre kicker? Because they don't buy from you? Do you consider everyone who doesn't buy from you a tyre kicker/timewaster? I don't doubt the existence of those that want a look out of curiousity, or desire, but don't yet have the funds, but that is part of your job. So, it takes some of your time up, in all the Garages & Dealerships that I've been in, it's not been the lack of staff that's the problem, it's been the lack of interest.
'Or just do the lazy thing and fill in an online request.'
Seriously, a potential buyer looking up a car, and bothering to email is lazy? Would this be one of those 'timewasters'?
'I got endless visits from potential buyers who hadn't a clue what they wanted ,and were reluctant to tell me what their budget was.
The response we got to a polite ,how can we help ,Was often, can I have a test drive,can I have a brochure,and can you tell me what my cars worth.No matter how pleasantly they asked ,we were always reluctant to waste an hour with them'
Well, sounds like a customer to me. Heaven forbid, that someone does't know what they want, surely that's your job as a salesman? Wouldn't it be so much easier if they just came in, and bought the car, ideally with a P/Ex & taking out Finance, without all that palava of questions and test drives!
'From your post you appear to have been looking for a car for two months ,the information on any car is readily available ,it should be easy to make a decision on what model in two weeks ,why two months?'
Re your criticism of VOR taking 2 months to buy a car, and so what? I've been looking since Christmas, I didn't realise that there was a time limit, oh I forgot, I must be one of those Tyre Kickers. A cars a car after all, eh.
'Sales people are always under pressure to perform three months poor performance is all the time they get before they are sacked.'
Yes, they've always looked pressured to me, or to take your views, oh no a tyre kicker, oh no an email request, oh no a potential customer wanting a test drive, and a valuation on car. Oh no, where am I going wrong, I've not sold any cars!!!
'The reason the industry is struggling ,is the economy is struggling .'
Nope, I've got money to spend on a car, VOR has money to spend on a car, and I'm sure there are lots of other people who would like to spend money on a car. I don't really like buying privately due to the risk, but I would rather take the risk, than put up with such poor unpleasant service.
I don't wish to turn this into a personal attack on you Tony, but really, I couldn't believe what you wrote, you summed up, and justified almost everything that I've had issues with.
However, as I stated at the beginning of the post, I don't tar all dealers with the same brush, I take them as I find them. I'd love to buy from a good dealer, just haven't found the magic combination of car, dealer & price.
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Rashid, this is the type of people we have to deal with when buying a car.
Tong g's comments are an absolute joke. If I want to research cars for 2-3 months before buying, who the hell are you to tell me thats a waste of time. I just wouldnt buy a car from someone like you out of principle. I researched before buying my current car, which I also bought from new. I took around the same amount of time to finally choose the right car and at the right deal, and I got the deal I wanted so now you tell me that was too long!?
The first dealer I went to had a similar attitude to you, and guess what...even though I got him near enough down to where I wanted, I still told him to stick it and walked away. That wasnt because I was wasting his time, it was because his attitude stunk (a bit like yours), and he thought HE was doing ME a favour. I drove to another dealer a few miles away and got the deal I wanted from him, and because of his no nonsense and decent approach I bought the car from him. Sometimes the way you come across to a client really can make the difference, and maybe some salesmen should realise that.
I remembered last night that I know a car salesman from a high end manufacturer, and so I discussed this with him last night. He actually has the attitude that you need to treat everyone with upmost respect and realises that he just wont be able to sell a car to everyone. He actually made some very good points about how to approach and deal with salesmen, and I will be baring his advice in mind. I certainly wont be taking notice of what Tony g says, as I find his stance very arrogant and typical of the majority of salesmen, and certainly that of a particular manufacturer.
Rashid, you are also right that not ever dealer or salesman is the same (thank God), and I have spoken to some very decent salesmen too. I was simply making the point that the majority are not very decent.
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A salesman friend (sadly no longer with us) told me many years ago that you treat any person that walks into the salesroom as a timewaster at your own peril. Even if they are only tyre kicking on that occation treat them well and they will hopefully return later having had a good experience, treat them badly and you will never see them again. Treat a genuine buyer as a time waster and its in all probability a potential sale lost. As my friend used to say, "Joe Public does not have to buy cars to carry on living but I sure as hell have to sell cars to carry on living".
As PointOfReason says above there are decent saleman around, I found a few when we last looked, but they were outnumbered by the ones who would rather drink coffee and look at the computer.
When we last bought the Scrapage scheme had recently ended and we wonderd if it had just been to easy for them for a year or so, people walking in and leaving an old motor and driving off in a new one and getting a £2000 discount, not much selling needed was there. Obviously this did not apply to 2nd hand motors.
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Lots of ranting from the last two posts,no attempt to deal with any of the points raised.
(I told him to stick it and walked away) really, and you say the salesmans attitude was poor.
(the offer Honda made me was thousands away from what I could sell my car for privately) .no attempt made to justify such a pointless comment .
(I was simply making the point that the majority are not very decent) car sales people.
This is the point I really take issue with ,people like you try to take advantage of the seller ,buyer ,relationship.You expect respect from salespeople when you give them none. All I hear from you ,is they should have done this ,they should have done that. You do nothing to help yourself .
If you go into a showroom with the arrogant attitude of ,you're here to serve me.Is there any wonder their attitude is one of indifference.?
Tony g
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See, once again you are assuming.
You are assuming that I dont treat the salesman with respect - where in fact I always treat anyone I deal with in the way I wish to be treated myself. I will always make the effort to meet and give my time to a salesman who wants to make the effort with me.
If you are going to call me and tell me about what you have, and then fail to call or email me back with an appointment - why should I chase you? You are meant to be trying to get me to buy the car, not the other way round.
I walked out of a dealership after being spoken to in a way that I thought was not acceptable. I am not going to sit there and listen to a load of rubbish that I know is rubbish. I will not tolerate morons im afraid, and so when i spot one, I walk. Thats my chice as a customer....your job is to make sure I dont feel like that and dont walk.
You may not like the forthright attitude I have, I dont really care. If I am going to part with my hard earned cash I expect to be given a service. Sitting behind a desk being lairy and arrogant is not providing a service. Being polite, helpful and honest and going out of your way to help me make a decision is good service, and I am more likely to buy from you.
I suggest you take on board some of the comments people have listed on this thread, you might find it will help you. You may currently work for a "Brand" that sells well and so you can get away with having a poor attitude to a certain extent. This may not always be the case, so I suggest you listen to the views of your potential customers, and realise that often we DO have the cash to spend, and if you do your job properly you MAY just get us to part with it.
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(You may not like the forthright attitude I have, I dont really care.)
That just about sums up the whole discussion, lots of ranting along the lines of ,you must do this ,you must do that.
No attempt to justify the reasoning behind your arguments such as ,why you expect a dealer to give you a retail price for your car.
It comes across to me that the( lairy and arrogant salesman) is reacting to you as an individual. Now perhaps he shouldn't do it ,but its inevitable some will.
Tony g
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If people have a problem with buying cars secondhand from dealers. Well, don't. They you are, problem solved. :)
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Bore off Tony g...im not going to waste anymore time on you.
Im a customer and therefore I should be taken seriously. I dont go in with an attitude, but a lot of the time I will leave in one after having to put up with a moron with a similar attitude to yourself.
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Off you go and stamp your feet then ,a tantrum is always better than reason ,isn't it ?
Still not willing to justify your thinking? On the px price.
Third time I've asked.
Tony g
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Lots of ranting from the last two posts,no attempt to deal with any of the points raised.
There was no ranting in my last post, I was only pointing out a late friends attitude to buyers, he was succeesful, became Delaer Principal at a large delaership. I would appreciate it if you could possibly appologise for your rant about my non-ranting post otherwise I will have to raise it with the moderators.
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What's behind this sudden urge to seek recourse with the moderators? I'm sure that they have better things to do than mediate in disagreements arising in threads.
I know some people dislike my input and if an OP ever asks me not to contribute any further, then I simply bow out of the thread.
Come on chaps-self regulation...
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To be accused of ranting when all I had done was put on this forum my personal points is not acceptable. If I had been ranting OK, fair enough. If I had been ranting I WOULD HAVE PUT MY POST UP IN CAPITALS.
RANT OVER.
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I'VE HAD WORSE THROWN AT ME.:-)
Have a nice cup of tea Thunderbird. You'll feel better!
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Thunderbird,sorry I was referring to vor and rashid ,not yourself.
As I was writing my response, your post arrived in the thread.
Regards
Tony g
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Thunderbird,sorry I was referring to vor and rashid ,not yourself. As I was writing my response, your post arrived in the thread. Regards Tony g
Its nice to see someone appologise even though in this case it would not appear to have deliberate, thanks.
A few months ago on another forum a post of mine landed between those of 2 members who were throwing racist comments at each other. I was banned for 2 weeks for my racist comments when I had made none. After 2 weeks when I was allowed back on I sent a message to the moderator pointing out that I had not made any racist comments and I would like an apology, result, banned for life. I do not wish to become part of other peoples arguments again for that reason alone.
Off to have a cup of tea.
Edited by thunderbird on 19/01/2012 at 12:41
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Anyone for a cold bath or cup of tea as thunderbird mentioned? Just go for a walk and calm down. Life's too short.................we don't need any heart attacks today.
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Ok Tony G, so please respond to my last comments.
VOR may have got a bit hot under the collar, but sounds more like exasperation to me.
I think Thunderbirds salesman friend was spot on.
VOR has stated that he does not treat salesman arrogantly, I definitely don't but when you're faced with such poor service and apathy, you're not going to hang around. You will go elsewhere, or even think about keeping your money. I know I have.
"Joe Public does not have to buy cars to carry on living but I sure as hell have to sell cars to carry on living".
Exactly
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Exactly Rashid.
I stay pretty cool, but some of the rubbish that is being said does get my back up and actually proves the point we have both been making.
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The problem that you both have is that you want top dollar specs for botttom dollar money. Gee, who doesn't? Salesmen see these traits in dreamers and time wasters and are not interested.
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I personally believe I am being very realistic. Im quite willing to listen to offers too - If the salesman can be bothered that is.
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Wanting a 20-25% discount is not being realistic in my view. Since BIK is based on list price, not transaction price, any company that wants to attract business users must set the list price realistically.
The big percentage discounts are usually phoney-or simply offloading rubbish that won't sell.
There was a time a couple of years back when production was outstripping supply, and manufacturers were willing to let dealers sell cars at a loss to raise much needed cash. Production has since been scaled down to a more appropriate level. That boat has sailed.
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You may be right, but I will only know that after actually getting to sit down with someone who wants to talk seriously, and show me the positives to driving away their car.
However I am pretty sure im not far from the correct mark, as their are places out there (however not so close to me) who are selling for very close to the figure im looking at.
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The last person I know who managed to 'negotiate' a big discount on a new car is now the proud owner of a 2010 plate ford focus fitted with...a 1.6 Zetec engine!
The reason it was cheap was because the dealer was desperate to offload a car whose engine was already obsolete.
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Edited by bonzo dog on 19/01/2012 at 14:09
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Hi all,
This thread seems to have generated a lot more heat than light ,
With that in mind let me try to clarify my point ,vor to a large extent and rashid to a lesser extent seem desperate to make out that the majority of car sales people are fools and wasters.
They also suggest that buyers hardly ever lie ,don't wander around car dealerships because they've nothing better to do ,and often think they know more about the car trade ,than car dealers do.
It would be difficult to qualify ,but I know from 30 years experience that their are least as many idiot customers as their are idiot car salesman .
(I personally believe I am being very realistic. Im quite willing to listen to offers too - If the salesman can be bothered that is.)
As a final comment ,voice of reason,a wrong Choice of name if their ever was one ,uses the above paragraph ,he just can't resist trying to prove how reasonable he is ,but the salesman just can't be bothered !
The reality is that they simply can't be bothered with you.
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Tony g, you keep going pal.
Neither of us have said at any point that there arent timewasters out there, of course there are. So maybe you should actually listen for a change.
What we are saying is that salesmen should treat everyone the same, as someone who you may think is a timewaster may actually be someone who is about to spend quite a lot of money.
You have probably never had to part with a great deal of money for a car if you have been a salesman for 30 years, so you may not understand that a diligent customer may liek to know exactly what is out there and may want to know a lot more about the car and the dealership before he actually parts with his cash.
To be honest, from the way you have come across I really hope I never have the bad luck of having to come across you when looking for a car. I doubt you would tell us who you work for (my guess is Audi) or where, but if I knew I would keep well away.
You may actually be a lovely bloke, but as a salesman your attitude stinks and I disagree with nearly every point you have tried to put across.
Like i said, I have actually met and done business with some very good and genuinely helpful salesmen in the past, but have come across more morons than I have good ones.
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Sales people are always under pressure to perform three months poor performance is all the time they get before they are sacked
If they're really under that much pressure then why dont they feel pressured enough to at least bother to answer an email?
It does seem that plenty of salesmen and car dealers only want to deal with somebody who's decided they'll buy the car before they see it. Anything slightly more challenging and they cant be bothered. A hamster could sell a car to somebody who's bought it before they walk in.
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Some years ago a salesman steadfastly refused to tell me how much he would allow on my p/x until I had signed an order.
Another told me to get a test drive elsewhere since the demonstrator was blocked in and then come back buy from him.
Believe it or not I bought from neither and by some strange cooincidence neither garage is trading today.
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Vor This is all turning in to a sad and pointless rant by an individual that's desperate to prove his point.
You make so many presumptions based on your own sad prejudices.
Let me try to put you right on a few points,
I've been a sales manager and a finance manager in the motor trade for many years ,not a salesman.
I don't work for Audi and never have done , I retired 5 years ago ,and buy and sell a few cars ,just for something to do ,The car trade is a business I've always enjoyed working in ,that's why I resent foolish, ilinformed comments.
Never spent much money on a car,?I've bought and restored classic mercedes for many years ,I buy cars for my family to use, I currently have 8 cars for sale.
(I have come across more morons than good ones )
Experienced car sales people will sus out a pompous idiot 5 minutes after they arrive in the showroom ,they will want to reserve their time for a genuine buyer.
Tony g
Edited by tony g on 19/01/2012 at 18:41
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Experienced car sales people will sus out a pompous idiot 5 minutes after they arrive in the showroom ,they will want to reserve their time for a genuine buyer.
Can they sus them out by ignoring their email?
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Jamie,you've done the job,you tell me.
Regards
Tony g
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Well I recognise this is the 21st century and email is the primary method of communicating and that no industry has a right to stay in an era it was most comfortable with. As a general rule I reply to everybody, if someones emailed to ask a basic question then ill give a basic answer. Doesn't take much effort does it.
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Tony G, i still think you're missing the point, and apart from defending dealers standing in the cold, not making much profit, feeling pressured, you still haven't addressed the various points that I and others have made.
You've actually defended the criticisms.
Why?
Did you expect all customers to walk into your dealership, having read about a vehicle, and then just buy it? What about choice, different models, colour, brand, engine. So if someone didn'y buy from your dealers, then they're a waste of time?
How many 'tyrekickers' came to you from other dealers and then proceeded to buy?
One mans tyre kicker is another mans customer, is that about right?
(I think my ? key is about to break :)
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One mans tyre kicker is another mans customer, is that about right?
I don't think so. I've got friends that are perennial tyre kickers. Always thinking about 'changing' their car-but never actually doing it. They spend blissful Saturday afternoons wasting dealers' time, discussing trade-in prices, grip properties of different tyres, but never actually spending any money. Unless you're looking for a particularly rare second hand car, it you've been 'looking' for two months, then you're not a serious buyer.
It doesn't take that long to work out what you're willing to spend, and what you can get for your money.
A couple of hours on autotrader will tell you what the going rate for a particular model of car is.
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I still think plenty of dealers are only interested if you essentially turn up wearing a pile of money on your forehead. Not everybody will know 100% what they want because until you get into the car you've selected you dont know. Theres only so much you can tell from online reviews and photographs. If i go out and look for something i'll usually have it narrowed down to a maximum of three and test drives will determine the winner. That may mean two dealers end up 'wasting time' but they cant expect everybody to buy cars unseen.
I sympathise with those currently in the trade, yes its high pressure, yes its low margin, yes its long hours but all of that should add up for it to be at least worth replying to an email surely?
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That's a fair point Jamie. But I suppose salesmen get to know the traits of people who are more likely to be timewasters. Of course profiling isn't 100% accurate.
But if your 'profiling method discards nine timewasters and one genuine customer, the genuine customer will feel aggrieved, but the salesmen has still avoided the hassle of nine timewasters, and can focus on people who fit the profile of being, say, 40% likely to buy.
I don't know-I'm not a salesman. But then I don't like friendly salesmen. I'm more likely to buy a product (never a car!) from a salesman is distant.
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What im saying is how much time can they waste when all they've done is email you? Im not talking about tyrekickers who mooch round your cars all day, im talking about people who send an email to ask a simple question. It takes 30 seconds to respond to each one, the likelyhood is half of them wont show up anyway. Whats the problem?
Email is the main mode of communication in most businesses now, it works well because if the recepient is busy they can reply shortly after. Yet in car sales an email is deemed 'timewasting.' The way i see it is if people cant even bother to click a few buttons on a keyboard then they deserve to go out of business.
Also, whats with the profiling? We're not tracking down serial killers here we're selling cars. What would that salesman be doing if he wasnt 'wasting time' (ie working, which he's paid for) with someone? Sat there on his computer playing Solitaire? Im yet to go into a used car dealership and see anybody who looks even sort of busy.
Edited by jamie745 on 19/01/2012 at 21:36
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What's with the profiling?
Depending on what you sell-quite a lot! I can't imagine a ferrari dealership just lets any old Tom, Dick, and Harry take their cars for a spin!
Maybe it is the haunting fear that whilst you're stuck with Billy-no-mates, your colleague gets a sale.
Maybe if you give away too many test drives without a sale, you lose your bonus. I don't know.
But if you meet five 'bad' salesman on the trot then the problem probably lies with you!
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Depending on what you sell-quite a lot! I can't imagine a ferrari dealership just lets any old Tom, Dick, and Harry take their cars for a spin!
Well of course not but how many Ferrari dealerships have you been in? Im talking about your ordinary used car dealership, selling Fords and Vauxhalls, ordinary common cars for ordinary common people. Anybody could buy one. But you see stories here (and indeed elsewhere) of salespeople who wont let you take a test drive unless you commit to buy it - if it turns out you dont like the car it'd have been cheaper to rent one! - makes you wonder if the test drive is now viewed as this optional extra. Also if dealers think 'test pilots' are coming by to 'have fun' in their diesel Korean tinboxes then they're sadly mistaken. If your place sells boring cars then its unlikely you'll get many joyriders coming by for a chat and a spin.
If anything - surprisingly - it sounds like the worst places for this are franchised dealers selling new or nearly new cars. Who buys a brand new car - hardly loose change is it? - without even driving it first?! People who work at the likes of BMW complain people are too hesitant. These are £60,000 cars we're talking about in some cases, i think people have a right to be hesitant about spending that sort of money.
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Hi rashid,
Are you getting as bored with this thread as I am ?
I'm beginning to feel that I'm communicating with my teenage grandchildren in dealing with you and vor.
What does that mean,well like you they are enthusiastic , opinionated and bright, but they lack sufficient experience to know what they're talking about.
So.Let me try and explain what an ideal experience could be for both the buyer and seller in the car sale/purchase experience.
As a buyer, research the type of car you want to buy before you venture into a showroom,ie, which are the most likely brands ,
How big,petrol,diesel,hatchback,estate,manual,automatic ,finally how much do you want spend .if you have a part exchange ,research what it's worth as a part exchange ,Parkers guide will give you an idea of it's trade in value. That way you won't be disappointed when a salesmen doesn't offer you retail value for your car.
All this should sound obvious to you ,I hope so. The sad truth is that car dealerships are plagued by people who drop off their wives at the supermarket
and then come for a wander round the dealerships, brochure collectors ,tyre kickers ,call them what you like.
Presuming that you're not one of these ,and you're genuinely interested in buying a car ,when you get to a showroom treat the salesman as an equal,he's not a moron ,he's not a servant ,be straight with him ,tell him which model you want and how much you're budget is.
If he can't get to the deal you want ,tell him you're a genuine buyer ,get him to check with his sales manager if that's the best deal that can be done .
Remember though that a deal won't be of interest to a dealer if they can't make sufficient profit ,when cars are in short supply ,as they often are at dealers such as Honda and BMW. They will often hold onto new cars ,until a better deal comes along.
If you can't get the deal you want from that manufacturer ,move onto the next one.
Try to remember that none of the sales process is personal, the salesman won't give you a low price on your car to insult you ,either he or his manager will see the first offer as a point for negotiation ,whether it's on the value of your part exchange or a discount from the car that you want to buy .
All to often a customer who hasn't researched the value of his px ,takes the hump and walks out when a dealer makes an offer on his car .In addition take into account ,that the only figure that matters is the balance to change. How much of your hard earned cash do you have to part with. So it could be possible to do a deal.
Edited by tony g on 19/01/2012 at 21:46
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After reading everyone's posts i feel the need to add mine.
A couple of years ago i wanted a large family car around the £20,000 mark brand new or pre reg.
I narrowed my choices down to a Honda Accord(a bit dearer than 20 grand),a Vauxhall Insignia,Citroen C5 or a Ford Mondeo.
I looked into each car on the net and weighed up the pro's and con's of each model.
It reached a point where i felt i needed to go to each dealer to see the cars in the flesh and have any questions answered as they arose.I had the £20,000 ready to spend so i was just narrowing the cars down until i was happy to commit.
My local Citroen dealer had a C5 in stock.I had read up on What Car that a £2,000 target price discount should be attainable.He offered £500 off and wouldn't budge any more.To add insult to injury he then priced by car (which had a trade in value of £5000) at a parltry £4,000.
This process was repeated across all the dealers in my area.
Very poor discounts and rubbish trade in value.
I eventually went out of town to a dealer 50 miles away.
I ended up buying a pre reg Ford Mondeo Titanium X(list price at the time £25,500) with delivery miles for only £17,500.
Plus i got £6,000 trade in as well.
All my local dealers didn't seem interested that i had £20,000 to spend and couldn't do any worthwhile deals.
In fact,to be taken seriously i found that i had to wear trousers,shirt etc where as if i went in jeans they looked at me as if i was wasting their time.
Never judge a book by its cover.I had the money ready to spend and the dealer who gave a fantastic deal got my money.
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'Hi rashid,
Are you getting as bored with this thread as I am ?'
Hurrah, we're back to agreeing with each other!
'I'm beginning to feel that I'm communicating with my teenage grandchildren in dealing with you and vor.
What does that mean,well like you they are enthusiastic , opinionated and bright, but they lack sufficient experience to know what they're talking about.'
and your post started so well, I'll take small comfort in the fact that I'm sure you like your grandchildren, and thus have a soft spot for myself & VOR, (Jamie, I think you're classed as an adult)
Well thank you for your wise words, and in some parts I agree with you.
but tell me, are car dealers extra special people? I just wondered because when I pop to the high street shops, you wouldn't believe how many people I see walking around, just looking at stuff. some of them don't even have bags on them, what's that all about. Oh, and if you think that's not a fair comparison, Estate Agents in the main seem to manage with Time Wasters.
The funny thing is that's only a very small part of the problem, I have no P/Ex, and I'm looking for a car in the £5k region. There is actually quite alot of disparity in prices when you consider condition, spec, mileage, model etc etc. Dealer/Trader wise, greeting me would be a good start, letting me drive the car without commiting to buy is always useful, and ideally for longer than 5 minutes. Not lying to me about very obvious defects, (bald tyres) not trying to get out of their legal responsibilities by denying any warranty/guarantee. One dealer when I made a phone enquiry about a car was so rude and aggressively replied, 'does it say it in the ad, if it doesn't say it, then it hasn't got it' charming, the ad also didn't say it had seats or an engine, plonker.
Likewise when I was in the market for a £25k car, the dealer was awful, (as described much earlier on in this post) thankfully the car wasn't, but he so didn't deserve the sale.
Well, I hope you're enjoying your retirement, I guess it's not that much different from being at work ;)
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Tony g's profiling is about as good as his people skills it seems.
Im not going to tell you everything about me, but I can tell you that I do have the money to spend, and that I will buy a car and prepared to drive away with it in the next month or so, I am far from being a child. I work hard for my money and hence why email communication or a quick phone call prior to visiting the showroom is helpful to me.
Im not going to pretend im the easiest person to deal with, im not, im stubborn. However it is a salesmans job to deal with people with all sorts of backgrounds and mannorisms. Just like its my job at work to deal with difficult clients and make sure they get served well, regardless.
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The problem is profiling in the first place - "one size" doesn't fit all.
I get annoyed at a salesman's first qualifier "what's your budget?" which implies that's how much you're going to spend regardless of whether your needs/wants can be satisfied cheaper or indeed that your limit may not be enough.
I decide, not the trade, what sort of car I want and what functional specification it has to meet. If I had to spend £60,000 to get that function I would but I won't tell a salesman that because I'd never find out about cars under £30,000 that tick all my boxes.
I do know that car salesmen always fail to profile me properly, most likely because I don't do image so probably don't look like I can afford £10,000 let alone £60,000.
If I'm looking at secondhand cars, as I do for my son every so often, I'm not only looking at functions which are different to my own, I'm also looking to see what you get for the money at the lower levels. In this sector the variation in salesman's approach is most varied - there are still rip-off cowboys out there but the majority appear far more professional, until something goes wrong aver you've bought it!
I have to say I've only been treated badly once by a salesman (actually lady but I'm old-fashioned and non-PC) so I politely but bluntly walked out.
But I've had lot's of problems with salesmen at the enquiry stage - either you can't get one to talk to you when you're interested or more recently they put you through a full profile interrogation before they'll even attempt to give information about the vehicle.
I have found that mainstream (Ford, Vauxhall, Toyota, VW) and premium (Audi, BMW, Lexus) dealers simply haven't got a box for the likes of me - but the smaller volume brands (Hyundai, Subaru) are much less categorical.
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Vor.
You seem desperate to justify yourself ,all I read in your posts is I this I that.
Then you want to tell us all what a salesmans job and responsibilities are ,if he doesn't perform in the way you want ,he's a moron .
Not once in your posts have you made a reasoned argument ,not once have you tried to justify a comment.
(I'm not going to tell you everything about me) why not,you asked about me ,I told you .you made presumptions about me and who I worked for ,you were wrong on every count.
Remember that this forum is about the sharing of opinions, ideas and information.To the mutual benefit and amusement of all the members .
So ,before you reply think what opinion we got from you ,salesmen are morons ,that's it .well done.
Sadly ,I think your posts have more to do with a fragile ego,and a desperate need to prove yourself.
However ,I would love you to prove me wrong ,justify your view points with reasoned fact, I've asked you three times why you expect a retail selling price ,when you part exchange your car with a dealer.
No reply!
Don't bore the forum with another pointless attack on me ,enlighten us with your views ,but back up a view point with logic.
Regards
Tony g
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Hi video,
It's great to hear from someone who ,does the logical sensible thing ,both before they get involved with a car dealer and during the process .
You clearly researched what cars would meet your criteria ,you also knew the approximate value of your part exchange.
You didn't get what you wanted from the first dealers that you approached ,so you moved on until you get the deal you wanted.
It's worth bearing in mind,that the dealers you spoke to,but didn't buy from ,didn't offer you what you wanted ,because they didn't want to deal,it's simply because ,from their perspective ,the sale wouldn't have been profitable enough.
Why a deal is not profitable enough is a complex calculation ,so I won't bore you with the details.
The thing I like most about your post is that ,even though you didn't get the deal you wanted ,you didn't criticise the dealers or the (moronic)salesmen as others have done.
Most are not stupid or arrogant as rashid and vor suggest ,they or thier managers just couldn't see enough profit in the transaction.
The only thing in your post that I can find fault with I've copied below ,it's one of the old chestnuts of the car trade ,it may have been true thirty years ago.but people dress much more casually these days ,theirs no way a dealer will discriminate against you ,because of the way you dress.
As an example I had a customer who had a chain of butchers shops plus a farm,
He was one of the scruffiest guys you would ever see ,but he and his family ran a fleet of 12 mercedes ,from s class to c class.He was a lovely man to do business with ,he always wanted a keen deal,but unlike vor and rashid ,he didn't take umbrage if he didn't get what he wanted straight away.
We would normally sit down for an hour ,have a couple of coffees ,And negotiate a deal that was mutually agreeable.A good deal for him and a good profit for us.
(In fact,to be taken seriously i found that i had to wear trousers,shirt etc where as if i went in jeans they looked at me as if i was wasting their time.
Never judge a book by its cover.I had the money ready to spend and the dealer who gave a fantastic deal got my money.)
Regards
Tony g
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I alwys wear jeans. Never a shirt nor a tie. Always a jerkin of some type in winter.
Never had any problems in any showroom - BMW, Audi , Mercedes, Ford Toyota etc.
Guess it's due to washing and shaving and having (some) short hair...:-)
Edited by madf on 20/01/2012 at 12:34
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Here briefly is the way the wife and I were treated 4 years ago when we wanted to swapt her Mini Cooper S for a new Mini Cooper S at the garage we had used for serving and warranty work for a couple of years surely proving we were not time wasters.
Made phone contact with sales and explained what we wanted to do and asked about delivery lead in (this was before the financial crisis). Was told 5 months thus order Set/Oct for 1st March delivery which was perfect sice it was early Sepember. Asked salesman about the deal and he said they would value our car and calculate a price to change in March and would give us a deal price that would allow to private sale if we wanted, perfect so far. Arranged a test drive for the Monday after we got back from holiday, think it was 10 am.
Alarm bells should have rung Friday when the salesman rang to ask us if we were still coming for the test drive, told him yes on Monday morning and he sounded surprised when I said we were 430 miles away and getting there that morning would be difficult. Agreed to see him Monday as previously arranged.
Drove the 15 miles to the garage, went to reception to be told the salesman was out delivering a car, could we come back later. Said no since we had made the appointment 2 weeks earlier and confirmed it on Friday. They passed us over to a salesman who had clearly only just started work there and did not have a clue about the car or test drives. After filling into sheets of paper we were eventually taken out in a car with no fuel in it, the salesman did not have a fuel card and had to get someone else to put fuel in it. I drove the car first but before the wife had an opportunity we had to go back and get more fuel in the car, clearly the previous £1.00's worth had evapourated.
Despite all this we liked the car and still wanted to do a deal and by now it was past midday and our saleman was back. Sat down with him but in fairness I should have asked first if he was OK to be out without his mother, he looked about 12. Told him we liked the car and what about a deal as discussed 2 weeks earlier. He denied all knowledge of our conversation and said they would not do a deal on the basis I described and to come back in November when they would be able to take an order from us.
Now all you salesmen on here who blame the customer for wasting time and being tyre kickers please would you justify the actions of that salesman as being acceptable in any way.
Up side for us was the wife realised she did not really want another Mini and that a propper car made more sense. We left it until just after Christmas and started visiting the usual suspects, VW who were ignorant, idle and uninterested, Toyota who were ill informed and lied about most things, Honda who were generally OK but constantly forgot we did not want a car that week, Volvo who again were OK but were only interested in selling us the car out front that had just become an obsolete spec with no price incentive, Ford who tried to be helpful but somehow failed, Vauxhall who never rang back to arrange a test drive as promised, I could go on.
We eventually went into the BMW delership that was in the same building as the Mini one that had disapointed us so much 3 months before. We were greeted by a salesman who turned out to be an absolute gem, he took us on 5 test drives in different spec cars to ensure we bought the correct one and when he gave us a price to swap quickly dropped it to a realistic one when I told him I could buy it cheaper on the net. He even saved us another £800 when a new spec was announced a week later that gave us all kit we wanted and no more. Car was delivered on the date and time agreed with absolutely no hassle.
Traders on here should listen to what is being said, I have to tell you that you need to try harder and treat all visiters to your showroom with equal respect whether they buy a car or not. The customer wants to spend money and we deserve to feel a little wanted, what will it cost you, basically nothing. You will not sell a car to every person that walks in the door but if you treat every body like a germ you will sell none.
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When i worked in switzerland, jag/rover/landrover dealer, if a customer called and wanted a test drive at home or at the office we went. I was a parts manager but if it was me that had to go, i went.
When i worked on the stand at the motor shows we treated EVERYONE as if they were a potential customer.
Since i have moved to south wales, I have one good purchasing experience out of 4 cars i have bought.
Here in the uk, it is virtually impossible to get a test drive in the spec i want, because everyone wants to flog me something that has huge wheels and spray on tyres and engine and gearbox choices i don't want. I can afford anything up to and including a jaguar xf (new) but i am careful with my money and will probably spend a lot less. I want a 1.6 to 2 litre petrol manual wthout electronic parking brake,climate control not necessary, but above all comfortable for my twice broken back and neck. It's actually strange that the car that suits me best is the one i've got, and it is proving hard to get something i like.
Tony G, when i went to one car dealer to look at a car and asked to test drive it, not blocked in and currently taxed, no pay £500 deposit first.. Byeeeee! And the car i turned up in was spotless and not very old. Nobody in th uk wants to work at selling anymore, that is the problem, not knowing B8888r all about the cars either.
Edited by OldRoverboy on 20/01/2012 at 14:25
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