What amazed me is just how little time the accident took. If you blinked at the wrong moment in time, you would miss it.
I always try and be considerate to motorcyclists. Actually I hate the way a lot of them hover in my blind spot looking for a space to overtake, so if I can I try and give them space to overtake so at least I know where they are (in front of me), rather than try and guess where they are behind me.
I think the Fiesta driver should of seen the bikers. He or she should of checked her rear view mirror and wing mirror before pulling out (not to excuse the bikers - they were an accident waiting to happen), and seen something fast coming up. My guess is the driver just saw enough space to overtake and went for it.
The other day we were driving in the New Forest, and a big ambulance followed up behind, lights flashing and sirens blaring. It was two cars behind us, but we were coming to a long straight so my wife slowed down so that the ambulance could overtake both cars. The behind us decided to overtake us just as the ambulance pulled out, forcing the ambulance to brake heavily. So I suspect some people don't bother about what's behding them.
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I'm not convinced that the Fiesta driver would have seen him, looking at the video they had just come off the roundabout and he would have probably already have done the checks in his mirrors, and even if he did a second check he would surely be checking his drivers door mirror rather than the rearview one, and with the undertaking maneuver that the biker did he wouldn't have seen him at all from that mirror as he was still right behind him, not on his offside.
I'd suggest that 99.9% of drivers in the Fiesta's position would not have seen him, and I'd admit that I very much doubt I would have done in those circumstances.
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...As WP stated I am surprised that the footage is available to the point of second impact...
If it's played in court, which it would have been, there is a presumption in most areas of the country it should be made available to the media.
I know some public servants don't approve of the public being allowed to see what they are paying for, but the court hearing was held in public.
The public pay for the three 9s emergency services who attended.
The public pay for the CPS lawyer who reviews the case and issues a charging advice.
The public pay for the barrister who prosecutes the case, the barrister who defends it, the judge, the court staff, the fabric of the court, the probation officer who writes a report, the prison which in this case the defendant will not be going to...
I could go on, but I'm sure you get the picture.
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What saddens and distresses me is the way motorcyclists don't appreciate how their riding - which no doubt seems entirely safe to them - frightens other responsible road users.
Much as I'd like to say, "Serves them right" when something like this happens, I can't.
Watching that video, I bet that a large number of car drivers, conscious of the likely outcome of a collision between a car and a bike, would have been scared by what those bikers did.
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No one is disputing who is footing the bill - the usual suspects! The matter is now in the public domain and the court will have viewed its contents.
I was purely thinking in terms of 'moral and public decency' and respect for the deceased. On the other hand there is an element of driver education in viewing the footage.
There seems to be an alarming trend to push the boundaries. But then there is constant back to back screening of 'fly on the wall' programmes to quell the insatiable appetite of our voyeuristic society.
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FC,
The media generally approach the CPS or police for this stuff and they, quite rightly, make a public decency judgment as to what is released.
Editors make the same judgment over what is published.
I agree boundaries are being pushed.
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What does seem to be getting more common around the narrower roads in Devon is for car drivers to fold their mirrors in while driving to avoid the chance of scraping them in the hedge. I regularly drive along roads where motorcyclists overtake unexpectedly, and it's only through meticulous mirror usage that accidents are avoided.
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It happened. It is fact. Why shouldn't we see the whole outcome. Perhaps it will serve as a lesson to those that need it. I used to ride on the road, but only green lane now. I also think that there are a large proportion of bikers that will suffer accidents like this or something similar. Some just ride as if they are bomb proof.
This should not be censored in fact the whole outcome, gruesome as it is, would possibly do some good to those that need a sharp lesson.
VBR......MD
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The only problem with that view is the grief of the relatives involved.
Richard Brunstrom was castigated for doing this by the press (in a private viewing) Was he right or wrong ? - I don't know but its a risky business for those that try to do it.
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The sad case of ken Bigley being beheaded was shown!! Not nice I can tell you.
I am not trying to be hard but that Motorcycle accident and the outcome represents a chance to teach BEFORE the Greenhorn or even more experienced riders come to grief. I know, I've been close.
Best regards.......Martin.
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So where do you stand on what RB did ?
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Even if the rider was decapitated. quartered and disembowelled - it won't stop Youngblood's doing what Youngblood's do, no more than showing pics of diseased lungs to smokers ever had much effect.
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I had a scare a few weeks ago when some motorbike went past me at around 50 in a 30. They come so quick that even if you keep checking your mirrors it they still come as a surprise. Usualy you can hear them in the distance though which - another reason for not having loud music on when driving.
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Having watched the video, I have to say that those 2 where an accident waiting to happen.
I also have to say what a waste of a life, and Im sure a lot of other lives ruined through memories etc.
That showed graphicly where too many bikers go wrong;
too fast for the road
too fast for conditions, weather etc
too much of a speed difference between them, and other vehicles.
bad road positioning, (undertaking his mate, nearly clipping the car as he did so, shooting straight from nearside to centre of road)
not making yourself visible enough, partly by positioning......
forgetting you are not the only road users....
and, not giving yourself an escape route.
My heart goes out to all people involved, including all those peoples familys.
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Even if the rider was decapitated. quartered and disembowelled - it won't stop Youngblood's doing what Youngblood's do no more than showing pics of diseased lungs to smokers ever had much effect.
I also accept that view, but we shouldn't stop trying, should we??
Martin.
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So where do you stand on what RB did ?
If that's to me PU I am unaware of what RB did. Please enlighten.
Best reg's, Martin.
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Swiss Tony - your list of errors can be summed up in one sentence:
"Failure to drive in a defensive manner."
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Swiss Tony - your list of errors can be summed up in one sentence:>> "Failure to drive in a defensive manner."
Agree 110% dave.... I was thinking through and listing some of the mistakes made, mistakes that many people (on bikes AND in cars) make every day..I have missed many, and you are right, they can all be summed up in your 7 words.
In my youth I earned a reputation of riding (too) fast, but I like to think I choose correctly when and where to do so (most of the time) and always tried to plan an escape route.
all I can say for certain, is luck was on my side (for example see my post in www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?f=2&t=75...8
Edited by Pugugly on 12/06/2009 at 23:41
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so it does... ok... its your thread BB ' Frightening experience' could a mod please put in a valid link for me, as I seem to be useless? ;-)
Now fixed - sorry about the delay - I tried to fix he hard way first, which didn't work then did the easy fix which of course worked. Life's full of crap like that
Edited by Pugugly on 12/06/2009 at 23:42
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Swiss Tony - your list of errors can be summed up in one sentence: "Failure to drive in a defensive manner."
More like failure to drive in any kind of sensible way at all.
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I`m not sure I believe the `oxygenated head` bit. Trying to remember what I read of the French Revolution - no one looked back up out of the basket did they?
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no one looked back up out of the basket did they?
there have been tales that some may have..... tinyurl.com/kjte2u
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Thanks Tony, an interesting read. Hope I have no dreams tonight ;-(
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Ok PUG crossed wires.
Similar situation here in Devon 2-3 years ago. I am only going to give enough detail for reasons that should be obvious.
Motorcyclist leaves road on a bend clearly travelling too fast as he drops off a steep bank and travels quite an amazing distance away from the road. He is not the first on this adverse camber bend which is probably going down 1 in 12 at this point. Huge outcry as there would be and cries from all and sundry to alter the road etc. What isn't told is that he was p1xxed when he went on the bus to a neighbouring town the evening before at 20.00 spent all night clubbing and indulged in more booze and possibly other substances. Home after midnight and riding in morning. Everybody to blame but himself. Witness to the boozing etc. would testify if it came to that.
People NEED to see the outcome of these things and I appreciate it may do no good whatsoever and if it did it would take a generation or more.
Is there an answer? Maybe not.
To PUG, I only glanced at the RB thing, but I guess he was wrong in this instance.
All go to ITV 4 now for the I.O.M. TT.
Best regards as ever ..MD
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Why is RB wrong? From a strictly legal viewpoint, RB owns the pictures and the family have no say over how they're used. There is no privacy law in this country. If anyone else arrived at the scene they'd be just as entitled to take photographs if they wished - there's no law to stop them and no law over what they do with them. Morally? I can't see too much wrong with some graphic reminders of the realities of accidents. Why should the truth be hidden? To save people from feeling offended? You can't be offended by the facts.
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I agree with Woodster. It would be offensive to use the pictures for entertainment, but those who are "offended" by their use in this context are missing the point.
RB, in this instance, is doing his job.
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I see an element of ' showing off ' in many cases of friends out together for a run.
Perhaps there was some in this case. You see it sometimes with , perhaps, two vans from the same company in convoy. I was once following, on my Velocette, two empty 8 wheel tippers down a residential 30 mph road in Cheadle. I kept well back as I could see something was going to happen as the rear one was trying to stay as close to the other as he could. Sure enough, they went round a bend, pelican crossing on red... the rear one had to go over the grass verge and through the playground wall of a primary school on the left. Just good luck that the kids weren't out.
There seems to be this macho thing with some road users that blinds them to common sense and can get them, and others, into trouble..
Ted
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Ted,
That's why I tend to ride alone - sort of a Lone (if slightly overweight) Wolf. :-)
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Ted That's why I tend to ride alone - sort of a Lone (if slightly overweight) Wolf. :-) Hi Pug,
I too prefer to ride alone some of the time, ( more like a lone Shrek ! ) you can focus a lot better. I do have a regular riding mate, we're both in our 60s and sensible riders of tourers. No competition whatsoever and no lawbreaking or hooliganism. I think we enjoy our rides as much as anyone else, ( as long as there's plenty of tea involved ).
I do get scared by the antics of some overtaking sports bikers though, again...showing off to us lesser mortals !
Keep the shiny side up, mate.
Ted
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Watching that video was very thought provoking. Now to take this from a different angle. I am not a motorcyclist. The thought of it scares me.
HOWEVER, having watched that, I can see how doing those speeds on a bike must pump the adrenalin to some level, must almost be like a drug! The same buzz you might get on the Cresta run, or a bungee jump or whatever. You know there is an element of risk but the "high" you get either overrules it or blanks it out.
However as shown here, the risk is huge and the consequences tragic. But as posted before, you can show diseased lung and folk will still smoke. They know the consequences but the addiction or the "high" obtained overrules the fear.
I know its no consolation to all the drivers, witnesses and emergency services involved but that was one guy that left this life with a huge smile etched on his face.
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I can assure you he didn't! Plenty of time for the dreaded 'OH SHHHH...!" reaction there... :-\
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>>Plenty of time for the dreaded 'OH SHHHH...!" reaction
Thats for sure - its amazing how fast the brain takes information in when the adrenalin is flowing - in fact a lot faster than the body can react in many cases.
thats why we need to slow down as we get older even if the brains working quickly, the muscles often arent.
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>>Plenty of time for the dreaded 'OH SHHHH...!" reaction
Hoping none of his relatives read this, but it's certainly true - you seem to have loads of time to think & anticipate what's going to happen in a crash, but bodily reactions & the laws of physics aren't so impressed.
I've had several motorcycle accidents, none at terribly high speed, but I remember every millisecond (literally) of the processes that may have only taken 2-3 seconds in 'normal' time. In fact, I had the time to think of several outcomes, what actions to (try) to take, what family, friends & even work colleaques' reactions/thoughts/feelings might be when they heard of the accident. Even time to consider bike damage, effect upon insurance premium (optimistic outcome contemplated!). It is totally weird, pure unaffected, unemotional reptilian brain stem in action.
I can remember running through all the possible 'outs' & coming to the conclusion that none of them would help. After a second consideration, I decided to try a braking action rather than swerve - I'd 'calculated' any swerve would put me in line for another collision with a second car. Almost lazily & with no mental fuss or drama I braked - it was probably my preternatural calmness & conviction that it wouldn't work that made it work.
All this, usually, in about 2 & a bit seconds & 50 metres of road travel. It seemed more like 10 minutes of normal time though.
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I think RB was wrong to show a picture of a decapitated motorcyclist as a means of accident prevention.
We are supposed to be a civilised country. There are many, many people who have not had any link whatsoever to death and to see something like that would be an awful shock. Then there's people who have recently lost a loved one. Why should they have awful thoughts and memories suddenly thrust upon them.
By all means show a bent bike, show a small drop of blood if it's really thought necessary....and maybe a photograph of the deceased in a happy moment in life....that is plently to be getting on with.
Anything more than that is unnecessary. RB was almost evangelical in his work and therefore IMO unsuited to his role.
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As others have said it is amazing how quick it all happens, one second you're riding round a roundabout at 25mph, not 15 seconds later you're dead and in pieces.
I was surprised by just how avoidable this accident looked to me. It's easy to be an arm chair quarterback but to me it seemed staggeringly obvious how a dangerous situation was developing in front of him and he had a few seconds to avoid it IMO.
As for doing 160+ in those traffic conditions, you're simply begging for death-how many times in a *car* have you been cut up on an A road like that when overtaking traffic at 70-80mph? I guess on a bike you can maybe escape on the shoulder between the lane and central reservation.
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>>it seemed staggeringly obvious how a dangerous situation was developing in front of him
Albeit with 20/20 hindsight I agree. The Fiesta catching the car in front, the latter moving over...most times you'd process that almost unconsciously and hang back, even if you were contemplating an overtake yourself.
Unfortunately the bike's speed was so high he didn't give himself, let alone the Fiesta driver, enough time to take it in and react properly.
What a tragic waste of life.
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I tend to agree that what he did was ott... but... it depends on the circumstances, if he was trying to get the message across to born-again bikers or car/bike speeders then those images may just work, probably in more cases than they wouldn't, but to the normal man-in-the-street then it would be too much... rather like the video clip in the OP?
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What a tragic waste of life
That's the bottom line and of course the lives affected forever by this.
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