Interesting post TT. I try to say thanks even when other drivers do what they are supposed to do if there is any eye contact, but one can't always do it in complicated traffic situations, one hand on the wheel, another on the gear lever or indicator and the third scratching one's nose...
I too think life's too short to mind much when people are lacking in courtliness. Where are they going to learn it after all? I blame the sixties, and the education system. People confuse courtesy with 'deference' - of course to a rational person there's nothing wrong with deference in its place, but it has been much frowned on in recent years - or with middle or upper-class behaviour, and therefore think it is unseemly for them, when they think at all.
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not an arrogant git - at least I don't think so. Manners and being polite are most certainly things which I value and teach to my children. But, in the same way that we probably don't thank the milkman for doing his job, or the postie, or the whatever, I don't think it is necessary to thank everyone for doing what they should be doing either in law or through the application of common sense - whatever that is.
In the great scheme of life, a fleeting hand gesture to a stranger in a car isn't worth jack - to me at least. Same philosophy also helps deal with those hand signals that are less polite - they mean nothing to me.
My gosh. Am I am emotional husk? ;-)
TT.
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In the great scheme of life, a fleeting hand gesture to a stranger in a car isn't worth jack - to me at least. Same philosophy also helps deal with those hand signals that are less polite - they mean nothing to me.
Maybe not, but it may encourage a further act of community spirit if you do. To me, not acknowledging politeness is tantamount to being rude. It was highlighted to me a little while ago: On entering a garage forecourt to check my tyre pressures, a rough looking car was in the process of parking there - the driver, a stout looking fellow with not one square inch (apparently) of un-tattooed skin, on seeing me got back into the car & kindly moved it.
It's my custom to thank people & smile (even when they do the 'expected' thing) , so I did - Interestingly, that moment before I did thank him he looked rather pained - as if expecting simply to be ignored (no doubt many people would, simply because of his frightening visage) but he lit up visibly & bounced off contentedly when I gave a cheery wave & a thank-you.
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On behalf of bikers can I say if you do something nice for us and do not get acknowledged do not automatically think bad if us.
Sometimes and especially in London you just dare not lift your hand off the bars or your eyes off the road for the second it would take.
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Very interesting post.
I have a huge bugbear with the bus drivers where I live. No acknowledgement at all from them for giving them room, and quite aggresive driving.
Have stopped giving way to them now, as fed up with being glared when actually trying to help them.
Met worst one ever yesterday, approaching a roundabout, saw bus coming from right so Istopped. Nice mr bus driver made a big gesture of pointing at me as if to say "you wait it's my right of way". Yep, I agreed, is why I stopped you moron.
Funnily enough, was picking something up, and 5 minutes later was doing same trip in reverse. Met same bus and driver. Pushed his way through on wrong side of road forcing me to stop to give way to him.
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You can't generalise about any category of drivers, although there may be bits of dodgy local culture.
When I first drove much, in the sixties, London black cab drivers always seemed especially rude, graceless and selfish. Later after driving some I realised a lot of that had to do with the horrible, harsh, uncomfortable, unnecessarily old-fashioned vehicles they had to drive. The FX3 was really awful, and early FX4s nearly as bad even when automatic (=dog slow in those days).
However with the advent of power steering and zippy turbodiesels, not to mention hydraulic brakes all round probably by now, cabs have become much less persecuting as workplaces and the drivers' manners have improved out of all recognition.
I sometimes think when mimsy car drivers are complaining about the bad behaviour of truckers they are failing to see this sort of point.
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Manners - good or bad - are highly contagious. A driver (unexpectedly) lets me in, I wave, I give way to a driver the next opportunity I get, and so on for the rest of the day.
But on a "bad" day, with traffic jams, atrocious weather and the inevitable succession of pushy, impatient, selfish imbeciles cutting me up every minute, I invariably end the day with ragged nerves and am far less likely to wave, smile, shrug, give way and generally relax. If I do get the chance to stop, stretch my legs, have a coffee, phone a couple of friends and unwind, I feel ten times better and I know I'll arrive home in a good mood. Unfortunately, most of the time I have to carry on driving. None of us are really fully in charge of our emotions at the wheel.
"Oh wad some power the giftie gie us, to see ourselves as others see us!"
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... I sometimes think when mimsy car drivers are complaining about the bad behaviour of truckers they are failing to see this sort of point.
From descriptions & general opinion , it would appear, contrarily, that HGVs more resemble the luxurious SUV in comfort & driveability terms than the instruments of torture you describe Lud! On the grumpy taxi driver point - my experience of driving (mainly as a bike courier) in the 70/80s in London was that black cab drivers could be relied upon to make progress & not block yours.
The big difference, in my view between them & many HGV drivers today was that black cab drivers would never put themselves or you in real danger - a black cab with the merest bump meant it was off the road to be fixed - they would always, ultimately, give way. I never had the slightest 'fear' of collision with black cabs (even when my own riding was less than exemplary) for this reason
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From descriptions & general opinion it would appear contrarily that HGVs more resemble the luxurious SUV blah blah blah
SNIPQUOTE!
Proves your original point Lud.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 05/02/2008 at 00:50
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>>Proves your original point Lud
I wish you would prove yours!
Edited by woodbines on 05/02/2008 at 00:33
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I wish you would prove yours!
With pleasure. Lud originally commented that one should not generalise about categories of drivers. Your next post mentioned inferred that MANY lorry drivers would DELIBERATELY put you in real danger; that is a generalisation and I think an unfair and misleading one, especially as you then went on to admit, to your credit, that your riding is not always perfect.
From a trucker's viewpoint (or not as the case may be) the biggest hazard associated with urban cyclists is their tendency to go into your blind spots without realising it. Even if you've got more mirrors than a Mod's Lambretta they're not always visible, especially those who affect "street" clothing and don't wear hi-vis stuff.
Not anti two-wheelers BTW as the screen-name will imply.
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Ok, I see your point now. But to quote myself:
The big difference, in my view between them & many HGV drivers today was that black cab drivers would never put themselves or you in real danger - a black cab with the merest bump meant it was off the road to be fixed - they would always, ultimately, give way.
I did say "many HGV drivers" (so not really a generalisation) & didn't imply they would somehow do it for sport or sadistic fun - just that often their driving technique & 'practices' would put you in danger (in fact, this happened just the other day with an HGV driver indicating right to turn into the outer lane across double continuous lines - with me literally against a tunnel wall by his side) - whereas Black cabs (probably due to their smiilar size/weight & the Hackney Carriage rules) never, IME, pushed things that far.
BTW - I don't ride bikes these days, the black cab illustration referred mainly to the 70/80s
London courier work period.
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whereas Black cabs (probably due to their smiilar size/weight & the Hackney Carriage rules) never IME pushed things that far.
I agree they didn't try to have crashes woodbines, but they didn't hesitate to lumber out in front of you and then very obviously make their cabs wide so you couldn't get past as they trundled along at 20 mph. They did this because they were afraid that you would get in their way if they didn't. Given the erratic behaviour of 'many car drivers' I couldn't blame them altogether. But they were wrong in my case!
Apart from that, they never thanked you if you did them a favour and they were highly unlikely to do you a favour themselves. They tended to look sour and avoid eye contact. If you got in an argument with one, others would arrive and join in, especially if you were a minicab. Of course there were exceptions, lots probably. But the general tone of black-cab driver behaviour has improved with the dynamic improvement of black cabs. Unless of course I have simply mellowed with age and am imagining all this. I think not.
By the way, I know that modern HGVs are relatively comfortable and quiet and the controls are not heavy, as they used to be. The stress of driving those, with their slow acceleration, long stopping distances and deadly mass, surrounded by jostling tiddlers all trying to hide in their blind spot, is of a different order, but probably just as wearing I would think.
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Yes, agree with alot of those points Lud - but just like pathological liars, you could rely on them in the breach, as it were - Black cabs always tend to react in the same way, making them oddly predictable & somehow safer than 'civvies' .
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oddly predictable & somehow safer than 'civvies' .
You're right, there was dependable method in their gracelessness. They always knew what they were doing. And I learned a great deal about the useful rat-runs of this enormous town by following them down cobbled alleys.
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The big difference in my view between them & many HGV drivers today was that black cab drivers would never put themselves or you in real danger - a black cab with the merest bump meant it was off the road to be fixed - they would always ultimately give way. I never had the slightest 'fear' of collision withblack cabs (even when my own riding was less than exemplary) for this reason
i'd mostly agree with that..except...for their infernal U turns. If you are/were a biker or emergency services driver in Central London (and unfortunately for me i was both) then the kamikaze cabbie u turn was a real danger...and...with their excellent turning circle they'd manage them in places you'd think 'no way'.
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..Central London (and unfortunately for me i was both) then the kamikaze cabbie u turn was a real danger...and...with their excellent turning circle they'd manage them in places you'd think 'no way'.
Yes, I'd forgotten about that. They could often turn in places that my bike would need a 3-point to complete ('reverse gear' was the backward paddle of course)
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