Pah, stupid modern diesels.
My old Mondeo doesn't need poncey expensive fuel to make pretty smoke effects in the headlight beam of the car behind. ;-)
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04 Grand Scenic 1.9 dCi Dynamique
00 Mondeo 1.8TD LX
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When the wife used to just take the kids to school, then the car would quickly coke up after about a week. There is a good hill near me which you can accelerate from and pretend to be in the red arrows for five minutes!!
Ah the pleasure of diesel ownership!
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My old 405 didn't need poncey fuel to smoke either. Shame it was a petrol :-(
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Noticed this on the way home from Brussels i=on Saturday night, I filled up with a Belgian brew..(1.01 euros a litre)
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I tried a tankful of that Shell V-power diesel last week with the intention that, if it produced better performance and/or economy it would be worth using, at least every few tankfuls, despite the higher price. Unfortunately the economy was no better (slightly worse if anything), I couldn't detect any improvement in performance and on top of that the engine note became noticeably harsher.
At the end of the week I called into the same Shell service station and the 'normal' diesel pumps were locked up with only the expensive V-power available. I filled up anyway - with the same results.
Yesterday I'd used that up and filled up at an Esso station and, surprise surprise, the harshness has gone.
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I've been using BP ultimate diesel and V-power diesel in an old model CRV for a couple of months on the recommendation of a friend in the technical side of the industry, and I thought I was getting a bit better economy when predominantly using BP. The last few fills though have been Shell and I'm struggling to beat 40mpg, when 42-43 is not normally a problem Not very scientific but I'm going to switch back to BP ultimate and see what happens.
I will continue to use the premium fuels though, for the cleaning/lubricating benefits claimed. Standard diesel is a very variable commodity and whilst simple diesels are not fussy, CR diesels are clearly more demanding.
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I'm on my 5th tank now and i'm glad the price didnt go up with the fuel increases.
In all honesty i have found no noticeable benefits so far and infact my economy seemed to have dropped. On shell extra i have managed 52MPG out of my Auris T180 but averaging at around the stated 45/45MPG if driven normally. If pushed i get around 40/41MPG on extra.
With V-Power my last MPG was 38.6MPG. I reckon for some reason with my D-CAT engine its giving me less MPG and i haven't a clue why. I know my diesel engine is slightly different from most so maybe thats it. I'm still happy with 450miles to a tank costing at or under £50. Considering my supercharged T-Sport only did around 250miles to a tank and i had to fill up with Optimax regardless.
I do boot my engine through 2 and 3rd gear once a week up to 4.5k in an attempt to clean out the soot and i did notice the top end not being as dead as it used to be but thats the only difference and i dont even make use of my top end :)
Having said all that i will continue to use V-Power diesel for its cleaning benefits and additives. The oil in my T180 is still looking clean when after 4k miles its normally black in a diesel with soot particles. Oil i think is important to keep in good shape. My wifes new RAV4 XTr is running on shell extra and the oil after 2k is v,similar. I've also noticed the occasional gust of soot being fired out early on in my V-power fill ups and wondered if this was the excess soot being broken down and loosened by the additives. This however is purely a guess.
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I stopped in wales to fill cheap diesel into ny 2.75litre 170 vw camper [t5] with small caravan on tow, but a guy pushed in front of me so i was stuck by the V power diesel pump - rather than wait longer i filled v power from half full up to full -hoping for miracles - the fuel consumption towing is around 32 tio 34 mpg it seemed a bit better at first but then evened up around the same as usual over 70 miles appx -40 was motorway- I will monitor again without the caravan but i had hoped it would help the towing really-- though it is still a bit sluggish up steep hills with the van on-- & did seem a bit more noisy after the new fuel-- usually i get 38 to 40 mpg without the caravan on-- is the bp vresion the same as i dont like using shell they are the biggest polluters of all the oil companies..
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I`m still `testing` V Power. It`s been around 4MPG down across the board compared with my previous use of Extra. What was low 60`s around town, instantly became upper 50`s and the van is now recording it`s worst fuel consumption figures ever, including when brand new.
It`s quieter, but the flip side of that is that it feels less `crisp` in use.
For me though, the big surprise was that any difference could be detected at all, as I just assumed it was all an advertising con.
Certainly won`t be paying more to cover less distance when this tankful is gone.
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I used both BP and Shell expensive diesel for two consecutive tankfulls . The fuel consumption did not change, nor did the observed power or noise in the Yaris..
I now run Sheel ordinary and 61mpg.
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Went to the Shell garage today (Carlton Road Nottingham) and there are home-made signs on all of the pumps saying that V-Power will be the same price as ordinary fuel on 17th of September. Has anyone else seen this offer in their are? or is it the garage trying to get rid of it? This garage is always the cheapest anyway, so it will be interesting to see if the ordinary grade goes up just before. Needless to say, I will take a few 20 litre drums!
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We tend to run the Scenic on Shell standard diesel which it seems to like. I haven't had the courage to try V-Power in it yet. One thing I can't find in any of Shell's marketing blurb is anything about lubricity. Sure, there's lots on how this fuel cleans injectors, does not produce soot deposits when it burns, and how it prevents corrosion, but as we all know, diesel's second most important function on a non VAG PD engine, after providing the chemical energy for combustion is to lubricate the pump and injectors.
V-Power diesel is a GTL fuel (comes from natural gas), and part of me wonders if the lubricating properties are any different, as well as part of me being concerned that Shell don't even seem to acknowledge the importance of this.
Of course, you'd like to think that a big oil company would have done its homework before launching the fuel, but if you ran a Vauxhall on Formula Shell a few years back.......
Cheers
DP
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Is there any difference between normal fuel and Vpower etc apart from price?
I remember watching a programme - could have been 5th gear where they did a test and there was no difference in mpg or speed. There has also been a test in autoexpress or autocar and same outcome was had.
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Is there any difference between normal fuel and Vpower etc apart from price?
No, it's all in the mind.
Queue a plethora of posts from the gullible and easily duped!
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No, it's all in the mind.
There is a *massive* difference between V-Power diesel and standard diesel. One is a GTL (Gas-to-Liquid) fuel, and the other is refined from crude oil. They are completely different chemically.
What that translates to on the road of course is a different question.
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It all depends on whether or not 1L of VPower has more or the same potential energy as 1L of normal Shell. If there's more or the fuel has a higher octane/cetane rating, then theoretically some cars may produce better performance or fuel economy with that fuel should the car adjust itself accordingly.
Whether it's a meaningful difference or not is another matter.
The fact that VPower is derived from GTL is neither here nor there. The fuel is defined by it's properties like lubrication, octane, cleansing additives, energy by volume etc. Whether the original hydrocarbon source was natural gas, light sweet crude or heavy sour crude doesn't strictly matter to the end product.
DP, the fact that Shell doesn't discuss the lubrication properties is worrying though. Perhaps maybe just because VPower is no better than normal Shell diesel in this regard?
Edited by TheOilBurner on 10/10/2008 at 15:51
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If i recall on the tv prog they said it made a slight difference to high powered cars such as impreza, 911 etc but for yuor run of the mill 1.6 2.0 etc car it wont make a blind bit of difference.
When i worked at Ford i recall having a product leaflet from Ford advising on the handover of a new car (internal document). On the fuel advice it stated to advise the customer to use 95RON unleaded and filling with a higher RON would in no way improve the car.
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I have tried V power Diesel over a few months but found no performance or economy benefits with my 130 VW PD in a Fabia. However it did find that after a long run there was actually LESS soot build up on the back bumper. I just use Esso Diesel now. I suppose Shell standard Diesel is still the Diesel Extra package they used to sell at the standard price?
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If i recall on the tv prog they said it made a slight difference to high powered cars such as impreza 911 etc but for yuor run of the mill 1.6 2.0 etc car it wont make a blind bit of difference.
Impreza/911 diesels ??
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V-Power contains a relatively small amount of GTL blended with mineral diesel. It isn't pure GTL by any stretch.
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Maybe 335d / 330d would benefit
However look past the performance benefits. Getting a couple more BHP out of a family car is not going to make the slightest bit of difference.
I ran v-power for a while, can't say i noticed much if any difference, anything i did pick up on could just be in my head.
However v-power is meant to have more additives to help clean and protect the engine. Anything to keep the injectors healthly on expensive CR rail engines with quite high power outputs is worth a shot.
However my trial ended when v-power went up to 1.35p/ltr
Edited by OldSkoOL on 11/10/2008 at 01:28
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I have no doubt that V-Power, Ultimate are as good if not better in respect of lubricity.
I also reckon the Mondeo feels slightly crisper on either and, perhaps, eeks out an extra mpg or two, I filled up with Ultimate yesterday, £1:24.9 v £1:21.9 for std BP diesel so less that 2.5% more expensive therefore I only need an extra 1mpg and it pays for itself.
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Has anyone here actually checked with the car/engine manufacturer to see if their car is designed to take advantage of higher cetane number fuel?
Just as higher octane fuel is like pearls-before-swine when used in low compression engines, might not the fancier diesels be likewise pointless when used in vehicles designed to run on the universal minimum standard?
The fact that mostly everyone here (and generally it seems) seem to report mixed or inconclusive results - more often than not with comments like 'seems to run smoother', 'might be more economical, but I'll tell you after 10,000 miles' , 'it cleans the injectors' etc. etc. - demonstrates to me that fancier concoctions, at best, give slightly smoother combustion & (maybe) cleaner engines.
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> It all depends on whether or not 1L of VPower has more or the same potential energy as 1L of normal Shell.
Pedantry alert
That at least is easy to test. You weigh both litres, then measure their height above the ground. If the weight and height are the same, their potential energy is the same.
Of course, if you meant chemical energy, it gets trickier and will probably involve setting fire to them. };---)
/Pedantry alert
FWIW, my experience of V-Power (and BP-U) matches most others' here. I've bought each a couple of times because that happened to be the pump I could get to, and noticed nothing I could confidently point to as a change. Since my Volvo has returned close to or better than its official Combined mpg since new, goes plenty well enough for me, and makes no unpleasant noises or visible smoke, I'm not sure what problem these fuels would be aiming to solve.
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Pedantry alert That at least is easy to test. ...
OK, OK, you're quite right, of course! :)
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Pedantry Alert
Your method would work for Gravitational Potential Energy but I think our friend is right - the chemical energy in the fuel is indeed classed as a form of potential energy. So ner! :-)
Edited by macca191 on 08/08/2009 at 02:37
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Has anyone here actually checked with the car/engine manufacturer to see if their car is designed to take advantage of higher cetane number fuel? Just as higher octane fuel is like pearls-before-swine when used in low compression engines might not the fancier diesels be likewise pointless when used in vehicles designed to run on the universal minimum standard?
More modern diesel and petrol engines have advanced anti knock systems and electronic control of the injection/ignition enabling them to take advantage premium fuels?
Premium petrol is the best example, aside from claims for cleaning etc 98ron contains no more energy than 95ron however the engine is able to run nearer its optimum without inducing pre-ignition etc.
In the early days of unleaded some cars such as early 90's carbed Cavs had a switch under the bonnet that retarded the ignition if using 95ron because while the engine was fine on unleaded it was designed to run on higher octane 4 star. Modern cars can account for the fuel characteristics without needing such manual intervention.
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Similarly, Mark 1 Mondeos (with multipoint injection and mapped ignition) had a removable plug on the bulkhead, which retarded the ignition timing to enable running on the 91 octane petrol standard in some European countries. With the plug in place, 95 was the minimum.
AFAIK a higher cetane number means the diesel is more likely to burn faster, is that in fact desirable given the sophistication of modern injection systems?
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Shell V-power is fuel that contains a proportion (more in petrol than diesel AFAIK) of GTL.
GTL (gas to liquid) is a "greener" or "more sustainable" alternative to traditional refinery fuels. The gas to liquid process has been developed as a backup to good old fashioned crude oil distillation.
From what information is available I gather it is claimed to be a "cleaner" fuel (less complex molecules in the mix - aromatics etc etc) but Shell do admit that it fundamentally has less calorific value than conventional fuel leading to around 5% lower mpg (in pure form)
In short, Shell are hedging their bets and at the same time showing a green initiative by developing this process and asking us to fund it via higher prices at the pump.
Of course, they do lob in an enhanced additive package, which is mainly a detergent additive to give us those somewhat dubious "cleaner, more power" claims which basically is the same claim as for most additives. i.e You will see some advantage if your engine is coked up and you use this fuel for a while to clean it up and restore optimum combustion. New clean engines will benefit only by remaining cleaner than otherwise, but there will be a small hit on mpg.
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Does Shell V-Power Diesel affect my cars engine in any way? Yes.
It's not my imagination that on V-Power, I can red-line my engine; which i've never done before in any other car previous to my focus. I have to say though that I have to check to ensure i haven't gone past 3500rpm as I don't want to labour my engine in any way.
I do get about 5mpg more on V-Power when really driving in an italian sort of way :). With ordinary Diesel Extra, my mpg gets to around low 40's when driving in the same fashion.
The one disadvantage though i'd say of V-Power is that from a cold start, it's very easy to exceed 3000rpm, which is not good for the engine in any way. With Diesel Extra, I know when to change at 2000rpm.
Oh and less smoke on V-Power. This is just my observation though and in no way scientific.
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Interesting thread.
I drive a 525d M Sport. It's two years old and has done 23000. I always used Shell Extra diesel and I always used to get mid thirties MPG. A few months ago, circumstances conspired to make me use a tank of Esso standard diesel. MPG fell to high twenties and has never recovered (could have been coincidental, but my driving style hasn't changed and I do a lot of motorway / dual carriageway work).
I tried a tank of V-Power. No change in MPG but the car did seem to run more smoothly. However, at the end of a a couple of longish trips (Solihull -> Preston and back; Solihull -> Reading and back) there was a plasticky burning smell from the nearside rear quarter. I even took it to BMW to have them check it for anything binding or rubbing, or some plastic maybe stuck on the exhaust, but there was nothing.
Would I be right in thinking that the extra octane would cause everything to run hotter? That would explain the smell, but the question is, is it doing the car any good? And why did the MPG drop suddenly like that?
And why did I buy a big thirsty car when everyone else was gettnig a supermini? :(
Incidentally, I used to have a Lexus GS300 (see - I never learn) and I tried several tanks of BP Ultimate in that - no change (except in BP profit levels...).
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As someone who does not see the point of a diesel unless you do very high mileage I will try and keep this constructive.
There are very few diesels that I follow, including modern cars that do not blow out black smoke and a stench at least some of the time.
I followed a new A4 from the lights this morning and as it accelerated a load of black smoke blew out.
My point being - it probably happens allot more than you think and is probably not related to the fuel.
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I drive a 525d M Sport. It's two years old and has done 23000. I always used Shell Extra diesel and I always used to get mid thirties MPG. A few months ago circumstances conspired to make me use a tank of Esso standard diesel. MPG fell to high twenties and has never recovered
Those figures seem very low. I have a 530d, 3 years old, with 140,000km on the clock. I average around 6.7 - 7.5 litres/100km which is around 38 - 42mpg. Not a very scientific measurement method, just brimming the tank every 900 - 1000km (normally once a week) with plain ordinary diesel.
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There are very few diesels that I follow, including modern cars that do not blow out black smoke and a stench at least some of the time.
Have you followed a modern diesel engine fitted with a DPF and fueled with the recommended diesel fuel ? Euro V regs will force diesel car manufacturers and buyers to clean up their acts, lorries are already being sold with Euro V reg compliance.
Regarding the 525d, have you tried using a fuel additive/system cleaner to help flush out the engine choke/muck ? The Shell V or BP Ultimate diesel will clean up an engine and should help restore mpg losses if muck is the cause, if not then another problem is lurking somewhere. The burning type smell needs investigating further, could be a number of things causing it.
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I used V Power diesel in Germany last year - I have a feeling its not the same stuff as we get over here. I got 76.4mpg in my smart forfour cdi on a trip from Saarbrucken to Salzburg. When using it in the UK it didnt seem to give any improvement in economy.
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As far as I am aware, Shell do not advertise that there will be an increase in mpg when using V-power. It will however, clean the engine and also reduce emissions.
I always use Shell V-power due to many recommendations from friends. I was very pleased to find out that I can now buy it for less than normal diesel buy using the Shell Citi mastercard credit card. It's great, you get cashback at the end of every month. If you apply before the end of 31/12/08 at www.citibank.co.uk/shellcard and use promotional code 9325, you will get 6% cashback on all fuel purchases for 60 days and then 3% cashback thereafter. You also get 1% cashback on all other purchases.
Also, if you use this card in conjuction with their Drivers Club loyalty card on all V-power Diesel purchases, you will also get another 1p back per litre. (thats over 8p per litre in total!!)
Shell seem to be the cheapest in my area anyway, so all of these offers, combined with the fact that they sell good quality fuel, means that I now always use Shell V-power Diesel.
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V-Power uses (in part or in whole) GTL- Gas to Liquid technology. Converting LPG to diesel to produce a synthetic fuel. By Shell's own admissions, GTL produced fuel is less calorific than conventional fuel and you can expect a small hit of 2-3% in economy. However they do lob in a premium additive package, and older cars will benefit from cleaned up injectors over time. (Note it takes several tankfuls to clean badly coked injectors). This can lead to improved (more accurately, restored) power and economy due to improved injector pattern.
Shell are doing GTL as a "green" initiative and hedging their bets against future crude supply issues.
Dont confuse V-Power diesel with V-power Petrol, which is a high octance petrol for performance cars that are able to detect it and automatically adjust ECU parameters to use it. (i.e. only a few)
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BTW Shell V-Power, BP Ultimate etc are brands - the actual product may be significantly different in other countries and from what I gather even across the UK. I think it depends on the supplying refineries capability and local marketing requirements.
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