"I'm not sure what you mean about it being a basic car? Why is it basic? Just because it's 4.5 years old? Why would that affect me getting a hire car?"
I should clarify my earlier post here. What I meant was, if the dealer offered you a replacement car, I don't believe you would be in a position to demand another Clio Sport or its equivalent as the loan car. So long as you were offered a car to keep you on the road, that would be as much as you could expect.
But yes, I do mean that you can't expect the same customer service "perks" on a 4.5 year old car bought from an independent dealer as you would on a nearly-new car bought from a franchised Renault dealership. After all, the cost of those perks has to be factored in to the higher prices franchised dealers usually charge!
That said, any work done on a car sold by any dealer must be completed to the correct standard. So long as it is, though, the choice of where the work is completed rests with the dealer, as the cost of the work is coming out of his profit margin.
Give this dealer the chance to do the work correctly and stay calm and courteous in your dealings with him - chances are it was no more than a misunderstanding, and will be resolved much quicker if there's no shouting and ill-feeling involved from the outset.
PS: I'd ask for a new cambelt to be fitted when the tensioners are changed, for fear the current one got damaged on removal. It would be easy to nick or stress the belt and you won't be able to tell just by looking at it.
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I would just try and get money off the seller, the seller may prefer this anyway, as they are then resolved of any responsibility and know you can't come back again saying it wasn't done properly. It's best to do this when selling a house or car. just give discount for anything that needs doing, as you could spend money and the the buyer will claim the wrong typre of wood was used, or not all parts were replaced etc...
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Ok thanks for all your comments.
I emailed them, and have sent a copy in a letter recorded delivery also.
So will wait their response.
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We had a cambelt done on our Clio RXE at Renault Minute, Renault fast fit attached to the dealer, for £200 inc an oil change, perhaps a Sport might cost £300 to do on that basis.
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Difficult job on the Sport, big engine in a small car and all that.
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Right, they recieved my letter, and have read it.
I spoke to them on the phone a minute ago. Basically, they agreed with me that one of the conditions of the sale was that they change the cambelt and associated tensioners.
The garage that they took it to, inspected the tensioner and rollers etc, and said they didn't need replacing. Now, I'm not quite sure how you can say this, an inspection with the naked eye is not good enough. There could be a hairline crack in them.
Renault insist that they are changed at 72k / 5 years, regardless.
I have told them this, and to please speak with Renault, as they will just repeat what I have told them.
The salesman I am dealing with, is going to speak to his boss and get back to me.
Where do I stand with this do you think?
I have it and writing, and admition on the phone that they were to be changed before I picked it up, but they were not. Renault say they should be changed. Somehow I don't think a garage that has no affiliation with Renault is qualified to say that Renault are wrong?!?!
Any advice welcome.
Many thanks.
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I would phone a Renault dealer an speak to the Renault Minute dept (fast fit, still Reanault warranted work, cheaper) and get a quote for cambelt and tensioners, I reckon £300 to £400, speak to the selling dealer and ask for that amount back on the basis that you will get the proper job done yourself. It might not be an issue for them, they may have knocked another £500 of anyway if you had haggled harder.
Good luck.
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They are point blank refusing to refund anything. They are happy for me to reject the car, and they will give me the money back plus my car I traded in, but will not give me any money towards the work.
They say as this garage say the tensioners "are service-able for the life of the belt" they think they don't need changing, regardless of what Renault recommend.
So I have a choice of returning the vehicle, or paying for the work myself. If I contact Trading Standards, and go through the small claims court, have I a good case, and how long will it take?
I don't really want to take the vehicle back, as I have the car I want, and I will have all the hassle / expense of going looking for another car the same.
They know this, hence why they are refusing to cough up.
I suppose it's whether I think it's better to stomach the cost of getting the work done myself, or whether to swap cars back, and start over again looking for a new one.
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If I were you I would get the tensioners changed at a decent garage at your own expence, if you intend to keep the car. If the original garage do them, you will not really know whether they have done it properly.
Next time you need a car, you know where not to go. Tell your friends about your experience at this garage, bad news spreads fast.
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I feel, unfortunately, that this is what will have to happen. I will of course get some advice from trading standards, but I think that, as the garage have offered me my money and car back, they will say that this is good enough??!!
I will indeed tell everyone the name of the garage and not to go there, as soon as everything is settled. I would not like anyone else to be caught out.
What worrys me, is that if someone who has very little or no knowledge of an engine, and they thought that just changing the cambelt is fine, unaware of the other parts, they would be happy with the service. Little do they know that in a few months or a year that they will have a bill for a new top end of an engine. Shocking.
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I would now have it done somewhere myself, and then raise an application for the cost of this via
www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/
I have used them eight times, and it's an excellent service. I have no time for these rubbish companies nowadays.
You can also give the seller their belt back afterwards, so make sure you get this from the garage, this absolves them of any counter-claim.
I would claim something like...
The Claimant bought a motor vehicle, namely a xyz car from the defendant on xx xx xx.
The defendant was contracted to ensure that a new timing belt and tensioner kit was fitted as a condition of sale.
Upon delivery, it became apparent that the tensioner rollers had not been replaced, this was confirmed by garage xxx.
Replacement of tensioner rollers is required by the manufacturer Renault at the same time as the belt, failure to carry this out may result in a catastrophic engine failure and could cause an accident.
I gave the defendant two oppurtunities to rectify the problem, but they declined.
My claim is for £400 for the omitted work to be carried out by xxxx garage.
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Ooops!
I gave the defendant two oppurtunities to rectify the problem, but they declined.
My claim is for £400 for the omitted work to be carried out by xxxx garage.
would be better as
The Claimant gave the Defendant....
and
The Claimant's claim is for....
always use the third person when writing these, to remove any emotion and it is also better that the Defendant reads it this way.
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Replacement of tensioner rollers is required by the manufacturer Renault at the same time as the belt ............
Required or recommended?
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L\'escargot.
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They are happy for me to reject the car, and they will give me the money back plus my car I traded in, but will not give me any money towards the work.
I don't know much about consumer and human rights laws, but I have a sense of what is right and what is wrong. This appears a most reasonable offer from the dealer.
If you decide to pursue a claim against them, I know which party I will have sympathy for.
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I don't think they have got a leg to stand on. Trading standards may well be interested. Otherwise, I think you have a very good case for taking them to the small claims court (in my humble opinion). As it stands, you seem to be at an impasse. You have the car, they have your money. Advise them that you intend having the work done and will proceed to reclaim it via the small claims court - from what you have said, you have nothing to lose. The small claims court is usually biased in favour of the man in the street I'm told. You will also get your costs back. If they don't back down, go ahead with it - i.e. turn it into a reality not a threat. The only thing you need to be clear about is Renault's position - are you positive it is a definite recommendation to replace, not just an "inspect and replace if it looks like it might need doing"?
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Well, I need the work doing pretty soon really, as the tensioners are due now. I don't want to risk leaving it any longer than I have to.
I can have the work carried out next week, by a trusted garage, that specialises in Renaults.
If I do this, can I still go through the small claims? I can't really go without a car, I need it for work.
I like the idea of claiming the money back through that site. If I go that route, I take it I get the work done, and then start the claim that way? How much does it cost for the claims and warrants to be issued etc? Just so I have a ruff idea.
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But whatever you do they can just turn round and say that they gave you the opportunity to reject the car, take a full refund and give you your part exchange back. I'm not sure that you aren't on shakey ground yourself.
Don't get me wrong I'm not defending the dealer and he clearly hasn't kept to his terms of that sale, but if they are confident that the tensioners and rollers are perfectly servicable then they obviously don't want to pay for them to be changed just for the sake of it. If the belt breaks within the first 12 months, take it back to them and demand that they fix it.
Other than that is it actually fitted with a Renault belt or a spurious one? Are you going to demand that they use(d) genuine Renault parts because you don't seem to have specified this within the terms of the sale. Will a non genuine belt be any more reliable than the 'old' tensioners - discuss.
I hope you get the situation resolved to your satisfaction but if all else fails then just take the refund and find a different car that you are 100% satisfied with.
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I would get the work done and then pursue a claim against the dealer-they really are having a laugh at your expense. I wouldn't 'reject' the car, as this would give them too much satisfaction.
Objectively, I am sure you will have a valid claim-surely they are in breach of contract, and giving you the opportunity to give the car back and have your money back is not good enough for many reasons-i.e. as they are in breach of contract, are they going to pay your expenses involved in returning the car, the time spent toing and froing to collect the car? Are they going to pay the wasted insurance money i.e. the cost of an amendment to your policy etc? Thought not-
Think of it this way; you had a contract with them-they have breached this contract-is giving you the option to reject the goods and have your money back an acceptable way to make up for this breach of contract; if the builders of a new stadium, or hospital for example, were to breach their contract-using substandard bricks, for example, or they breached planning permission and this came to light after the handover to the owner, could the builders just turn around and say tough luck-give us the building back and we'll sell it to someone else?
Nah; you should be able to keep the car, get the work done and get them to pay. Their only option to deal with their breach of contract that they are offering is not reasonable IMO.
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Many thanks, and I agree with you totally. I feel I do have a valid claim, as they have broken the contract.
I never wanted to give the car back, as along with the cost, the time it will also cost me will be huge. It's a 90 minute drive each way.
I am getting the work carried out a week today (it's as soon as I can get time off work, and the car booked in), and I will claim against them for the cost of the work carried out as it should have been done first of all.
I will also get the cambelt that is on the car, incase of a counter claim, as mentioned, even though the cambelt is only £20 new. The tensioner kit and labour is where the cost is,
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If you are going down that route you really need to pay for some legal advice,beacause from my experience you are not going to win as the dealer has offered to refund your money and p/x.As a betting man,my money is on the dealer.
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I just read the whole thread. The sale contract said the tensioners were to be changed. As far as I'm concerned that's regardless of whether they need changing or not. If the contract said tensioners will be changed, that's what should have happened.
I hope you get your refund.
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xzibit I have read all of the thread and it is definitely a breach on contract. You should expect the contract to be fulfilled. The dealer has not complied with the terms of the contract and you have given him the opportunity to remedy the matter to your satisfaction. He decided that what was best for him was to reverse the contract, again this is not satisfactory to you - the other party in the contract.
Do get the work done and then use the small claims court to reclaim your cost. You should win as his case is very weak due to the fact you gave him the opportunity to fully complete the contract.
You asked earlier about the cost to use the small claims court, for this case it is about £50 - full details are on the earlier link. It is very easy and fairly quick to get the matter resolved. If agrees the claim he should pay immediately. If he denies the claim, it may be decided by the judge on the paperwork alone, or you may have to attend court. It is heard in a room, not open court, with a judge at one end of a table and both parties facing each other. You do not need a legal representative, if you decide to use someone then you will have to pay their cost whether you win or lose. Basically you will outline your complaint. The defendant can then ask questions. The defendant the puts his defence and you can ask questions. The judge may ask questions at any time and also gives guidence on the necessary law (an individual is looked upon more favourably than a businessman). Then both parties sum up their postions and the judge decides immediately. If you win you will be awarded the sum claimed and the court fees. If you lose then you have nothing more to pay. It is surprising how often the defendant fails to turn up and usually you will win automatically. Payment is then made by the defendant, usually through the court. If the defendant fails to pay, then there are processes the court can use to make the defendant pay, however remember some people are made of straw so cannot pay. How do I know all of this? Last year I won a breach of contract against a publicly listed company that was defended by a solicitor based in Mayfair - and I am a businessman with no legal training.
Hope this helps.
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Roger
A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well.
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I think the OP is in good shape here.
He made a contract. One of the terms of that contract was that the cambelt and tensioners would be replaced. Not replaced if needed, but replaced full stop.
They are offering to refund the money. That is irrelevant. You are entitled to enforce the deal that they struck.
The fact that they are refusing to do the job properly actually helps you, as it gives yu no alternative but to get the job done elsewhere and sue them for the cost.
The difficulty with these cases is usually about proof, but you don't seem to have that problem here.
Now, do you know sho you are suing? Do you know the name of the business? Is it a firm, a company or a sole trader? You have to get that bit right.
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Thanks Artful Dodger and Lawman!!! Excellent advice.
I have booked the car in to have the work carried out. I take it that all I need is an invoice of the work completed.
I have the proof in writing from them, and also they repeatedly admitted it to me on the phone, although I know this can be denied, as I wasn't able to recored the conversations.
I know who I will be claiming against, it's a company that buys/sells used cars, and is owned by one person, who also employs a salesman. I know the name of the business, and most details, as I went there to inspect and buy the car, they have a website, and I have reciepts for the car from them.
Once I have got the work carried out, I will proceed to the small claims court.
One thing I must ask is, do I have a time limit? I am away most of April as I have to visit relatives in Australia. Will this pose a problem?
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>>I am away most of April as I have to visit relatives in Australia.
Lucky you.
>>One thing I must ask is, do I have a time limit?
It is measured in years, not weeks or months.
>>Will this pose a problem?
No. On the court forms you have to state any periods you are unable to attend. So you can still start proceedings immediately.
It might be to your advantage to make notes of the phone calls you already have made as in a couple of months, backed up by any phone records you might have -presuming you initiated most of the calls. Also detail out the conversation with the garage that replaced the belt. All this is still fresh in your mind and it is easier to complete the court documents with these notes.
Best of luck, and do not forget to report back with any updates or further questions.
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Roger
A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well.
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Many thanks for your assistance Artful Dodger.
I have written down the conversations with the dates and times (were all stored on my mobile phone) and I will put this into clear type on the computer later on.
I will start proceedings soon after having the work carried out then.
Again, many thanks.
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Some people use the word "company" rather loosely, ie as in a "business"
I take your post to mean that you know the name of the limited company. You can check this on the companies house website, for no charge.
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Well I know the name the company trade under. It's the name of the company?? Or not? The name that is on the letterheads?
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It has been correctly stated that you, initially, pay your cost sof initiating a Smal lClaim Court action but you get these costs back if you win. I think that they might claim their costs from you if they win but I am not sure on that. Our learned friend DVD will probably chip in on this aspect if he reads this thread
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Well once you have had the work done and got the invoice/receipt for the work why don't you contact the people who sold you the car and give them one last chance to pay up and settle the matter. Tell them that if they don't then you are going to start procedings against them in the small claims court. It may just be enough to spurn them into action and pay up what they owe you so to speak. If not then start your procedings, because by then that will be the only was to get the matter sorted.
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>>I think that they might claim their costs from you if they win but I am not sure on that.
Armitage Shanks you should have read the earlier posts. Costs cannot be claimed by either side for legal fees - check the court service web site (link posted earlier).
In a small claims court, the only cost allowable to be claimed is the fee paid to the court to issue the summons, and this is only paid by the defendant if he loses.
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Roger
A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well.
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I am currently doing lots of consumer research due to my frail 87 year old uncle being, I believe, coerced into buying a £1600 mattress on the grounds that if he didn't he would end up in hospital again. Trading Standards are hopeless - haven't rung me back yet (it's been a week) but this site is helpful:
www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/ (it's not all about bank charges). They recommend a book called Small Claims Procedure by Judge Patricia Pearl (thinking of getting this). Good luck. Can someone clarify - if we went to the Small Claims Court what would it cost us if we lost?
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Sorry, didn't phrase that at all well - I've looked at the site mentioned but can't seem to find the info about costs and what happens if you lose. Obviously, my uncle is not in a position to lose any more money.
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I am shocked to find that everyone else who has spoken appears to support this claim.
Am I the only one to think that it is not the dealer who is being unreasonable here ?
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I think so!
Personally I think the dealership are in the wrong, they have failed to honour the contract and now they want to cause inconvienience and expense for the OP rather than just offering to rectify their mistake. Not very impressive really!
Blue
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........... and now they want to cause inconvienience and expense for the OP ...........
When you say they want to cause inconvenience etc are you saying that they are retaliating and being actively vindictive?
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L\'escargot.
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Looking4car, may i ask why you seem to think I am in the wrong?
I bought a car on the condition they changed the cambelt and tensioner kit as per the Renault service schedule.
They failed to do this as they promised.
I cannot see why you are questioning it.
Artful Dodger, I am getting the work carried out this week. After this has been completed, I go through the website you posted in a previous post to start proceedings through the small claims court and take it from there, am I correct?
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I have to say that on the facts presented that I think this seems a tad unfair on the dealer!.
He promised to do something and didn't.
He's not arguing about that - he's offering you all your money back, and your car back - he's prepared to undo the deal leaving you no worse off, other than a bit of inconvenience and time.
In his professional opinion he didn't need to do what you asked. In your opinion he did.
Fair enough - he respects your opinion and offers you a refund.
It might be nice if he were to offer you a bit for losst time etc, but in essence I think he's playing it pretty straight in the circumstances, unless I've missed something obvious.
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Dipstick, the dealer breached the terms of the contract he had formed with the buyer, not unfair at all. The dealer accepted the terms to get the job done as a condition of the sale, the dealer then saw fit to get the job done on the cheap, no doubt hoping the purchaser would not notice - so you are basically saying it is ok for the dealer to rip the purchaser off - and if he gets found out it is ok just to offer a refund and for the purchaser to have lost all the time, effort and money it has cost him to source the car and possibly take out a loan for that car etc. You sound like a scamsters ideal customer to me!
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That's another interpretation of events, sure.
My point is simply that there is in fact another way of looking at it, and if you are going to put this case in front of a judge then the nature of what he does is to look at it impartially from both sides.
So if the OP feels there is any chance at all that my way of looking at it might be argued by the garage, then he needs to get himself into a position to refute it.
He might not feel that, but that's my opinion, and opinions were canvassed.
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Dipstick. Why should I have to do all the following, just so the dealer can get away with not changing what he promised??
Arrange new insurance cover for new car
Re-Tax old car
Travel 45 miles to exchange cars
Travel 45 miles home
Change documents for both vehicles over again
Get a refund on tax for car exchanged back again
And then start the whole process of going round, looking for a new vehicle, and doing all the above AGAIN!!!
I'm sorry, but you may have time to do this, but I certainly don't. It would be a severe inconvenience, that I shouldn't suffer if the dealer had kept to his side of the contract.
Also, you state that in his opinion they do not need changing? He admitted he knows nothing about engines!! Renault, however, the manufacturers of the vehicle say the MUST be changed.
Sorry, but I feel myself, along with 95% of posters in this thread that he is in the wrong.
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All true, and I see your point.
I'm not arguing at all. I'm saying these are the questions the judge might ask, so be ready is all.
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xzibit,
Whatever your future course of action is, I think one thing you need to do is to be accurate and consistent about what has been said. For example ...........
You said ............ "I phoned the garage ???. and they said that they had only changed the belt, and not the tensioners / rollers, they never do unless asked to."
You then said ............ "They weren't even aware that tensioners needed to be changed on cars."
And then .......... "The garage that they took it to, inspected the tensioner and rollers etc, and said they didn't need replacing."
There are several inconsistencies in your statements as to why the tensioners weren't changed.
Finally, are you sure Renault say "........... they MUST be changed.? I can well imagine they recommend that parts other than the belt be changed but I doubt whether they use the word must.
If this ever gets anywhere near a court your case could get torn to shreds unless you are both accurate and consistent.
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L'escargot.
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L'escargot - I wasn't saying that they were trying to be deliberately vindictive at all, I think you've taken my words a little too literally! Although having worked in a garage I can assure you that it does happen ;-)
Blue
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L'escargot ............. I think you've taken my words a little too literally!
I always try to not put my own interpretation on what someone has said.
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L\'escargot.
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L'escargot, I think it is my poor typing skills that are the problem.
"they never do unless asked to." - refers to my conversation with the garage that was instructed by the dealer to do the work.
"They weren't even aware that tensioners needed to be changed on cars." - refers to the dealer not knowing.
"and said they didn't need replacing." - refers to the contradiction of what the garage told me. this is what the garage told the dealer, when the dealer phoned them,
Renault saying they MUST be changed. - Well, ok, they said they recommend they are changed and wouldn't leave them if they did the work. Again, my poor typing, and that fact I'm always rushing at work.
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Argh, can't edit, should read through before i post them.
L'escargot, I think it is my poor typing skills that are the problem.
"they never do unless asked to." - refers to my conversation with the garage that was instructed by the dealer to do the work.
"They weren't even aware that tensioners needed to be changed on cars." - refers to the dealer apparently not knowing they needed changing, even after I toldthem they do.
"and said they didn't need replacing." - refers to the contradiction of what the garage told me. this is what the garage told the dealer, when the dealer phoned them,
Renault saying they MUST be changed. - Well, ok, they said they recommend they are changed and wouldn't leave them if they did the work. Again, my poor typing, and that fact I'm always rushing at work.
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*UPDATE*
Hello again everyone.
Today was the day when I had the work to my car carried out. The garage said they couldn't believe the car got there!!!!!
They said that the cambelt was fitted incorrectly, it was loose, it hadn't been timed up correctly, and the rollers they replaced were on their way out, and would not have lasted much longer!!
They reckon that the belt could have came off the pulleys at any time, and surprised it had stayed on there as long as it had. If it had come off halfway round a bend, the force from the car slowing could have been enough to put it into a spin.
Basically, the car wasn't safe to be driven really.
So, what is my next stage. I believe that I should write the the dealers that sold me the car, stating the above, and give them one more chance to refund me, and if they are not prepared to do this that I shall be proceeding through the courts?
Are there any sample letters anywhere, as I do not want to mess it up.
I have the parts that came off the car, and they took a picture of how it was fitted, as they couldn't beleive it, I also have the invoice for £499.14.
Any advice on where I stand and how to proceed welcome.
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If the garage that did the work for you is a recognised specialist, get them to write you a one pageer on the problems they found.
copy that to the dealer with a request for the cash. If no good response then small claims.
imho
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I am glad that you seem to have got to the bottom of it at last.
I think that the moral of the story is, when buying a car from an independent dealer, just buy the car and get it fixed at a specialist in that particular make. You can make an adjustment to the price for any expected work. As you have posted, the dealer did a botched job which could have wrecked the engine.
I bought a car for my son when he was 18. The boss of the firm told me it would be serviced before collection. The service consisted of topping up the oil and nothing else. The brake pads had 1mm left., I was very cross.
I didn't think at first that it was worth going to court, but after reading of the disgusting job the garage had done, yes I would persue it.
I hope you let us know how you get on.
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xzibit I cannot believe the garage that fitted the cam belt could have done such a bad job. Thank goodness you have now had the job done correctly.
I would suggest there is nothing to loose in contacting the dealer you bought the car from to reclaim the £499.14. Keep the letter business like and mention again the terms of the contract on the invoice. I would also advise them that the condition of the engine was not fit for purpose as it would have failed in the very near future. Under the Sale of Goods Act any failure within 6 months would be their responsibility, so you have saved them several thousand pounds. You should mention that you have evidence (parts, photographs and statement) to back your case from the garage that has now correctlycompleted the work. Give them a specific date (about 7 days from when they should receive the letter) to settle otherwise you will be taking legal action. I would suggest you send it Recorded Delivery with Advice to ensure you can prove they received it.
By following the above will only mean you will be delaying your legal proceedings by just over a week, but it will show the judge that you have tried to get a satisfactory result but failed, so strengthening your case.
Do not worry about finding sample letters as they will not fit your problem exactly. Write a sensible letter and get someone else to read it to ensure you have expressed yourself clearly. This should avoid making any mess ups, but even if you did mess up a small detail it would not affect your case. It is surprising how many people have trouble in clearly expressing their thoughts in writing, so take your time and make sure you have covered everything before you send the letter. It might be better write it one day and then reread it the next morning and make alterations to improve it. Try keeping to the facts and keeping emotion out of the letter. Also try being concise by removing unnecessary words and phrases without changing the meaning. It would also be wise to use simple words with a clear meaning so there can be no missunderstanding.
If you would like me to read your letter then you can email it to me, my email address is in my profile.
Best of luck.
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Roger
A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well.
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Many thanks for your advice Artful Dodger.
I have composed a letter, and I will go over it again tomorrow, and I may well email you a copy of it to check over, which is very kind of you.
I too was shocked to see how the work was carried out. I just could not believe it.
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no reason in theory why you shouldn't charge for your out of pocket expenses in getting the car fixed as well (mileage/time off work etc)
Offer to waive these charges if they settle the bill, but say you will include these extra charges in your county court claim if they don't settle.
I agree that you ought to send one final 7 day letter.
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I have composed a letter, and I have sent it to Artful Dodger to check over, as he seems to know far more than me about this stuff.
I spent about £20 in petrol, did about 140miles, and had a day off work plus phone calls to the dealer etc. lol. Maybe I should put these in, though I would be happy with the £500 refunded to me.
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>>I have sent it to Artful Dodger to check over
Not received it yet. Have you used the correct email address? The correct address is {deleted at request of author of this post - DD}. I will read it tomorrow morning and reply with any suggestions before lunchtime.
You should advise of the extra costs and as The Lawman suggests waive them if they pay without legal action. Will only keep you looking as reasonable to a judge.
xzibit when you have read this please contact the moderators using the Report message as offensive button so they can remove my email address from the open forum. {Done -DD}
--
Roger
A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well.
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I wish luck here. It's important that the public persue their rights as so often they don't due the hassle of it all.
I once bought a car from an independent two man band who traded from home. The brakes were obviosley faulty and need replacing and I was assured they would be checked and replaced if required.
Sure enough came to pay, had new MOT and the guy says the brakes were ok didn't need replacing! Like an idiot I beleived him and had them indeoendently checked the following week and yes the disks were shot.
Guy i bought it from said nothing to do with him as garage checked the brakes and MOT it.
Garage said the brakes were ok when they did the MOT and didn't want to know.
I explained ti seller i would be contacting trading standards and they finally agreed if i bought the parts they would fit them. Not satidfactory I know.
The thing is most of these independent dealers have a prefered garage who gets all their work and that garage will often let a few things go to help the seller out.
Its very difficult to question a garage aboout an MOT after the event.
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The thing is most of these independent dealers have a prefered garage who gets all their work and that garage will often let a few things go to help the seller out.
Utter Rubbish!!
An MOT is an MOT, and garages will NOT do us 'favours' on items which might be failure points and neither would I expect them to. If something will not pass, it is marked as afail, end of!
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Utter Rubbish!! An MOT is an MOT, and garages will NOT do us 'favours' on items which might be failure points and neither would I expect them to. If something will not pass, it is marked as afail, end of!
C'mon, everyone knows that 'relationships' exist between certain traders and MoT stations, that's why VOSA have guys out monitoring VTS's and the odd one gets knocked on the head now and then.
I have been having all my MoT's done by the same guy for the past 18 years. Early in the month I had a car down to him with rear discs I knew were in somewhat poor shape, but I thought they would pass. Unfortunately they were a bit under (about 40% - min. is 50%), but the balance was OK. He has discretion and gave me a pass. He knows that I will immediately replace discs and pads (which I have). The other area that some VTS's will help out on is emissions - handy on a post-95 Jap import that won't quite make the limit.... ;-) They pop the probe into another tailpipe, run the test, and all is well..... (not saying I've ever had this done on a car of mine, but I've heard about it happening).
The overwhelming majority of testers are straight though, and wouldn't give a pass on something that was really dangerous.
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>> The thing is most of these independent dealers have >> a prefered garage who gets all their work and that garage >> will often let a few things go to help the >> seller out. Utter Rubbish!! An MOT is an MOT, and garages will NOT do us 'favours' on items which might be failure points and neither would I expect them to. If something will not pass, it is marked as afail, end of!
Sorry, but what you have written there is utter rubbish!
A few years ago I bought a car, a ZX TD from a dealer in Northampton, part of the deal was a new MOT. I collected the car and within 150 miles; literally, 150 miles; the exhaust fell off-the join at the backbox had rotten through and the pipe fell onto the floor. There is no way on this planet that any competent MOT inspector would have passed that car on the MOT-the slightest glance or the merest prod would have broken through the join.
So I can reasonably conclude one of two things; either the MOT the supplying dealer put the car through was done incompetently unwittingly, or the garage turned a blind eye to the faults. I firmly believe the latter.
I feel a fool in this situation as I never checked the exhaust properly-it was only a cheap car and it was on gravel when I looked. I stooped down and had a peek but never took a good old look and a prod or I would have discovered the exhaust was all but gone. I bet it's easier for a dealer to get a bent MOT than it is for a teenager to get hold of alcopops.
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Sorry, but what you have written there is utter rubbish!
I bet it's easier for a dealer to get a bent MOT than it is for a teenager to get hold of alcopops.
Are you saying I don't know what I'm talking about? - After putting about 300 cars through MOT's in the last 5 or so years, I should have an idea!
As for a 'bent' MOT, do you mean conterfeit, or stolen? I have never come across either and would'nt know where to look for them (that's not to say they are not out there though). It is not in the interests of any MOT tester to do the trade any favours, as it is their licences at stake at the end of the the day. All the places that I use are strict.
Sounds to me like you listen to far too much pub talk in my opinion.
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OK try going asking some independents to have the MOT carried out at another garage you know or a local main agent garage. Some won't want to do that because they don't want the main agent to be a spicky as their prefered MOT station.
Many have their cars done at garages that are miles away because "they know them".
You might say it just the price but you only talking max £20.
I'm not saying most do this but bet you behind there are reasons as to why there not carried out localy.
Yes I'm sure that you have MOT'd loads of cars and never run into this but that does not mean it never happens.
Like the other poster said, some are more flexible than others.
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By bent MOT I mean obtaining an MOT on a car that knowingly should not have passed, the person requesting the MOT (i.e. the Dealer) and the 'MOT Tester'. I'm not saying that we're talking about millions of cars all with dangerous faults etc I'm just saying I believe it is easy for your average car dealer, especially the non franchised and smaller ones, to obtain an MOT on any vehicle, almost regardless of condition.
I'm not saying you don't know what you're talking about; I believe the majority of MOT testers are honest and I can believe what you're saying. But I do believe what I stated in my opinion goes on.
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>>the disks were shot.
**If** the disks could not be seen without taking the wheels off **and** the brakes passed the efficiency test, it is quite possible for a car to legitimately pass an MOT, and when the wheels are later removed during a service or inspection for the disks to be found in need of replacement.
The MOT tester cannot remove any covers or panels. Behind a set of plastic trims, a wheel with a missing wheel nut would pass an MOT.
An MOT is not any sort of guarantee of the roadwothiness of a car - even at the second when the certificate is written! It is only a certificate to say that a prescribed set of checks have been passed, it is not a comprehensive safety inspection (if it were, the cost would be significantly more than the current £40 or so). In this way, an MOT is more like an independant check that the vehicles normal servicing routine (where covers and panels should be removed) is being carried out correctly.
A car which fails an MOT (on other than politically motivated emissions aspects!) is probably not fully safe.
A car which has an MOT may be, but is not necessarily, fully safe.
Number_Cruncher
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I sent it to you earlier using the email in your profile. I have also sent another to test to the address above. Check they haven't gone into your junk folder.
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so after all that hassle, whats the car like. has it lost its sparkle because of the problems or are you giving it beans now!!!
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Been reading this with interest. I had the same problem with my Mondeo when the dealer agreed to do a belt change as part of the deal. The belts were changed, but not the tensioners or more alarmingly the leaking water pump I discovered when I did the job again myself a few months later.
Unfortunately, the dealer I bought it from ceased trading. I say unfortunately, at least others won't have to deal with them (a car supermarket in a major town on the South coast).
The car itself has been otherwise brilliant in the time I've had it, and I don't regret buying it. What it did teach me though was that next time I buy a car with a job needing doing, I want money off rather than the job done as part of the deal. That way I can choose the DIY route, or a garage that I trust, and I know it's been done right.
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The car is fine now. That was the only problem with it. It was a bit sluggish do to the timing being out, but no lasting damage has been done.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by giving it beans lol.
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*******UPDATE********
I sent the dealer a letter on 27th Feb.
Basically, the letter outlined the following;
when I put the deposit down, I specified I wanted the cambelt and tensioner kit changed;
only the cambelt was changed, as the garage that carried the work out thought the tensioners didn't need changing;
that Renault recommend they be changed;
that I took the car to a specialist and they found the belt fitted incorrectly, timed incorrectly, tensioned incorrectly, 1 roller VERY worn, others needed changing;
that the specialist couldn't understand why the belt hadn't snapped or come off, and would do very soon;
that I have the parts changed on the car in my possession;
and that I would like them to refund me the money.
They replied to me today informing me today that they previously told me no authorisation would be granted for the work, the garage that replaced the belt felt the tensioners were servicable for the life of the belt (the same garage that incorrectly fitted the belt!!! Plus I have the tensioner and pulleys and can confirm they did indeed need changing), and they will not refund me, but I can have my old car back if I wish. They also included a copy of the invoice for the car, that I already have, stating I asked for them to be changed?!?!?
They did not even comment on the fact that the belt was fitted wrong, and would have failed very soon, and would have cost £1,500 - £2,000 to put right when it had. I feel they have ignored half of my letter!!!
I mean, what if I had left the belt on there, and a week later it snapped?!?! They would have to pay to fix the car!!
I feel like I want to write to them asking if they are stupid or just plain ignorant. Maybe I should have left it, and they have a bill for a few thousand pounds.
Do I write back to them, highlighting the fact that if I hadn't have had the work carried out, the engine would have failed. And that the same garage they are relying on to survey the condition of the tensioner and pulleys (they couldn't have as the bumper hadn't been removed!!) couldn't even fit the belt correctly in the first place?!?!? They were obviously not competent in doing the belt, so what makes them competent in saying some parts are ok for 5 years???
What do I do next? Write to them again, or just start court proceedings?
Edited by Webmaster on 26/10/2007 at 01:48
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What I want to do, is send them a letter, highlighting the fact that if I had left the engine, it would have failed, therefore they would have been having a bill for thousands, and also the mechanics they are trusting to tell them some bearings in a tensioner and pulleys will last another 5 years, are the same mechanics that couldn't fit a cambelt correctly, and to expect a court summos shortly.
Obviously a bit more long winded and proffesional than that, but is that ok??
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I'm not quite sure what you mean by giving it beans lol.
'Enjoying it's performance and potential' ;o)
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Ive just read this nightmare.. i purchased a clio from a major Renault dealer in the south of England...It was due a major service when i purchased it...cast iron guarantee...lol.. they did nothing apart from top up the oil over the high mark....the sales dept were seperate from the service dept and they obviously didnt want to take a hit......several visits later , alot of aggro..and oil change,new pads, top up washer fluid etc ....i have never touched Renault since....best of luck..bunch of cowboys...
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I don't think that you are going to get anywhere by trying to highlight that if you had left the belt it would have failed. As far as I can see it is a subjective opinion and not necessarily a fact. You can't prove that it was doomed to fail, so I wouldn't make too much of a song and dance over it.
You stated that the belt was loose and it was timed up incorrectly. Did the specialist who did your replacement check it with a proper guage, or was that opinion too? Also if was timed up incorrectly then you ought to have noticed a performance drop/gain before and afterwards. Has the specialist put these findings in writing for you?
As for the cambelt breaking and likely to send the car into a spin then that is just laughable. I have never seen a car accident purely due to the cambelt snapping, as the first thing that normally happens is the pistons smack the valves, bend a handful and all the car will do is cut out, lose its drive and coast to a halt.
You had might as well go ahead with the small claims court, as I don't think the dealer is going to budge. I'm still not convinced that you are going to win hands down, but I wish you the best of luck anyway.
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Well, the specialist said there was no tension to the belt. He also does about 2-3 cambelt changes a week on this engine type, so he must know something was wrong. The belt was also routed the wrong way, this is what I mean by fitted incorrectly. The belt literally "fell" off when they went to remove it, and it had been making contact with the casing. Maybe it would have lasted 5 years like that? My guess is not. Though it's all it is, a guess. The specialist said it wouldn't though, thats proffesional opinion.
I didn't notice a power loss before the belt was changed, as it was a new car to me, but I noticed a huge power gain after it was changed. He is also happy to put all his findings in a report for me if needed. They also photographed the belt in-situ before removal.
I'm glad you think it's funny about an accident happening when the belt snaps. Fortunately I do not share that kind of humour. I know what happens to an engine when a cambelt breaks. I also know what happens when you drive round a sharp bend at speed and quickly remove your foot from the throttle, the back end steps out. A similar force to the engine losing power when the belt breaks.
The main point I would like to point out, is the fact that they are going on a mechanics opinion about the life of the tensioner and pulleys, when the mechanic cannot even fit, tension and time a cambelt correctly. And the fact I have the tensioner, pulleys and cambelt that came off the car, and the bearings in the tensioner and one pulley are 'shot'. They do not spin around, they scrape.
I will go ahead with the small claims court, from the letter recieved, I too feel the dealer will not budge, as they think the legal action is an empty threat. Thank you for your kind comment, I also hope I managed to get the money back.
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And when I said no tension to the belt, I mean it was very loose. I am just reiterating what the specialist said, and not being a mechanic, I do not know all the correct terms. The specialists report will have though, luckily lol.
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>>I also know what happens when you drive round a sharp bend at speed and quickly remove your foot from the >>throttle, the back end steps out.
How does that concept work then?
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If you proceed with a court claim, be clear as to whether you are reporting fact or opinion.
If the mechanic who replaced the belt and tensioners measured the tension of the timing belt as fitted by the supplying dealer's garage and found it out of tension, it can be stated as fact that the belt was fitted incorrectly. If he thought from experience that the belt was too lose, you ought to report this as his opinion. Otherwise it becomes very easy to discredit your argument.
Likewise, you cannot know the tensioners were likely to fail (even if they were subjected to laboratory analysis and found to be worn, the most you could claim is that there would be a high risk of failure given their condition) so the best argument here is that the tensioners ought to have been replaced as per Renault's guidelines. Renault designed and built the car, after all, so the court will assume that Renault's engineers know best!
Good luck in your claim, but do remember that you are more likely to succeed in your claim by sticking to facts, and avoiding hyperbole such as your assertion that a snapped cambelt would cause a spin or crash. Maybe you believe it would, but again, you can't prove that these are inevitable consequences of a belt or tensioner failure. (When the impeller failed on my father's 34,000 mile Octavia, all it did was grind to a halt on the hard shoulder.)
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It's called lift off oversteer. Not very clever to try it on the public highway, but if you drive around a sharp bend at a reasonable speed with the power on, then lift off the throttle, the back end steps out and you need to apply opposite lock to correct it.
It's great fun, spent an hour on a track practicing it with an instructor, that was in my old 106 GTi, brilliant fun.
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>>I also know what happens when you drive round a sharp bend at speed and quickly remove your foot from the >>throttle, the back end steps out. How does that concept work then?
It is called 'lift off' or 'power off' oversteer. As you round the corner at speed and have passed the apex point, and are back on the power, the weight transfers to the rear of the car. If you suddenly lifted off the throttle, the weight would suddenly transfer towards the front, turning the car in more (oversteer), the back end would go light and want to swing round pitching you into a spin. In a front wheel drive car such as the Clio, this is corrected by jumping back on the accelerator which of course would not be possible had the belt gone. You would have to be very committed to the corner in terms of speed, so I'm not sure that Xzibit would be able to blame that on the supplying dealer; driving within conditions and all that!, but he is right in in saying that a sudden cambelt failure at speed whilst cornering quickly could cause a loss of control.
Personally If I were this dealer, I would just settle up on this claim ( I would have the job done right in the first place).
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Thanks zm thats a much better explanation. I know that I would have to be driving rather spiritedly to achieve this, but in a car such as the Clio Sport, this is expected surely? Where circumstances permit.
As per the above posts, the facts/opinions that I have are the following;
- Renault recommend the cambelt and tensioner kit changed at 72,000 miles or 5 years. The car is 5 years old.
- The cambelt was found routed incorrectly.
- The cambelt was making contact with the plastic casing.
- Specialist tells me it was at wrong tension (I will have to check whether a gauge was used)
- The belt was timed up wrong. They did not use the correct locking tools, they used tipex.
- The tensioner that came off the car is worn and does not spin freely compared to the new tensioner,
- Of the 3 other pulleys changed on the car, 1 of them would not spin freely, the others were better.
Obviously nobody can say for sure that it would have snapped. Proffesional opinion is that it would have, due to the way it was routed and making contact with the casing. But proffesional opinion is all that I have.
Also, nobody can say how long the tensioner and pulleys would have lasted. They may have lasted 5 miles or 50,000 miles. But this is why Renault have their recommended service schedules surely. Since I have been looking into this problem, I have discovered some of these Clios have had a tensioner break up at 3 years old with 33,000 miles on the engine, so it's all luck really.
I do not want to go ahead with court proceedings if the general consensus is I am in the wrong. But personally, I feel that I do have a case, as of the above facts. If anyone that can advise me either way, then I would be very grateful.
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>>I do not want to go ahead with court proceedings if the general consensus is I am in the wrong. But personally, I feel that I do have a case, as of the above facts. If anyone that can advise me either way, then I would be very grateful.
I would firstly obtain the report the specialist garage offered, even if you have to pay for it (but you can add this to your claim). This will only add independent proof to what has already been discussed between you and the selling garage. Forget about trying to expose that they employ cowboys to repair their cars, the selling garage use them because they are cheap - not because they do the job correctly or well. Too many customers will believe that the work would have been completed correctly because they said it had been, luckily for you you decided to check it out. You will know for the future that if you want work done on a car you are going to buy, get a price reduction and have it completed by someone you trust.
As soon as you have the report I would then start immediate legal action. The garage you purchased the car from are not interested parting with any money and are hoping you will just go away quietly. Personally I think they will either pay up on the court room steps or not bother to turn up for the hearing.
As I have advised before you it is up to you to proceed with the legal action. It is not difficult and from what you have said in open forum and direct with me, I believe you have an almost rock solid case and have very little chance of failure. Remember you have purchased a car in a condition that failed to meet the terms of the contract. It will cost you about £50 to £75 in court fees to regain the cost of the repair, incidental costs and the court fee. If you were a betting man then the odds look very good, so go for it.
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Roger
A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well.
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Although called the small claims court- it is not like the Old Bailey. It is handled by staff who are very geared up to the amateurs, and the decisons are based on clear legal principles. In my job we take people to the Court to recover debts, so are on the other foot to you, but the decions are always based on , so far, on sensible legal outcomes.
In your case breach on contract which was defined at the point of sale.
Go for it, they may try to settle out of court once the papers are lodged, but for less than your claim!
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Thanks to the above posters.
I am going to the Citizens Advice Bureau later today, to see if they have any general advice about how I best go about starting the process. I have also just spoke to the specialist I took the car to, and he is going to email me a report later on today.
I am going to send a quick letter to the car dealer, letting them know that I will not be accepting their offer of my old car back, as this would still leave me out of pocket, and is totally pointless now, as I have the new car to how I wanted it in the first place. I will also notify them that I will be starting legal proceedings in the next week.
Just want to say thanks for everyones comments and assistance so far, especially Artful Dodger for taking the time to check over my letter to the dealer.
Onto the next stage then. I could really be doing without this lol, I'm meant to be looking forward to my month in Australia in April, but I haven't even thought about it since I bought the car lol.
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Go for it.
I've used small claims twice but never had to attend because the other party paid up before it got to court.
They will get a copy of your submission with the court papers, when they see it laid out logically and your evidence they will probably back down. Expect an offer shortly before the case gets to court.
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don't get distracted by these side issues.
The garage made a contractually binding promise to you to replace teh belt and tensioner.
They did not do so. as a matter of law you are entitled to get this work done and present them with the bill.
You gave them the chance to do this work themselves and they declined.
End of story.
Worthe one more letter to them, along these lines. Tell them you will sue, without further written notice, unless they pay within 7 days.
Pop down to your local county court and pick up a claim form. you can also have aleaflet about how to start the process. It is simple stuff really.
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I am about 25 miles from the county court, so I think I am going to do it online at www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/
Just out of interest, how long does the process take from submitting the claim to the final outcome? I am flying out to Australia in 3 weeks time for a month, and don't want to start it before I go if it's likely to be going on still, as I will not be around to respond to any correspondance, and don't want them to think I am ignoring it.
Will it be too late to start a claim when I return at the end of April if it is likey to go on for more than 2 - 2.5 weeks? I did go along to the CAB at lunch, but they can't fit me in until a week friday, although they did suggest I phone up tomorrow and I should be able to speak to someone on the phone.
Also, the only doubt I have in my mind about the claim is the fact that they have offered a refund of the car, and my old car I p/x back. I refused this, as mentioned in this thread somewhere, as it would have cost me in administration charges changing over insurance, re-taxing the old car, travelling all the way to exchange the cars, plus I would have to start looking for another car, and then change over all of the documents of the new car. All because they didn't keep to their terms of the sale.
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re the timescales - ring the court and ask. Explain that you will be out of the country and ask their advice.
the garage will get some time to respond anyway. I cant remember how long, but it does take time.
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I rang the County Court, and enquired about the timescale.
Once I have submitted the claim, a pack should be sent out to them within a few days, and they have 14 days from reciept to reply. If they wish to defend the claim, they recieve another 14 days. Therefore, if they just pay up, I should be ok, but if they defend the claim (which I have a feeling they will lol) then I won't be present.
She said that I have upto 6 years though!!
So if I submit a claim as soon as I return from oz at the end of April, this will be ok? Please advise someone lol.
Also, I was going to send out a letter to the dealer, confirming reciept of their response, and inform them my intentions as posted by The Lawman above. I was intending on closing the letter "I will shortly be commencing legal proceedings to recover the cost incurred..... blah blah " but if I intend to start them when I return in April, do I disclose this to them? As it will be in about 8 weeks time. Do I change it to something along the lines of "I will be commencing legal proceedings in the next few months to recover the cost incurred......" ??
It's a bit of a pain, as if they were to pay up straight away, then there would be no problems, but it would just be my luck they defend it, and I won't be here. I leave the first week in April, so there is 4 clear working weeks (including today) until I depart.
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Hello again xzibit.
Personally I would not bother writing to the garage again as they are not taking a blind bit of notice to what has already been discussed and do not appear to what to settle your claim. You have already given them plenty of opportunity to re-pay you, but they are still suggesting swapping the cars back without any recompense to you for the work and additional costs you have incurred. Is that not a touch arrogant and unrealistic?
Knowing about your holiday commitment should not affect your actions. To sue someone does not mean you have to act immediately. In your case you could complete the court forms before you leave and hold them until you return, or you could get a friend to post them half way through your holiday or you could post them as you leave. In the last case you might return and find you need to complete a form for the court fairly quickly, may be not best with jet lag.
I would certainly suggest waiting, so do not send the court papers in now. It also will make the garage think you have gone away and are forgetting about the matter as legal action is too much trouble and effort. The court papers arriving will bring them back to reality with a bang (unless they are so used to receiving them).
Your case is a definite breach of terms in the contract, so they will have virtually no defense. If you are a betting man, you cannot get more certain odds to win.
So bide your time, enjoy your holiday and come back refreshed to finish the battle and win the war (in this case the money).
--
Roger
A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well.
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May I say thank you again Artful Dodger.
I think I will complete the forms in the next few weeks, and get my parents or a friend to put them in the post a week before my return. This way, I may possibly find a cheque from the dealer on or very soon after my return, or if not, I will be back in time to take further action. Plus I will not be rushing about and getting stressed (I will do, as I have no experience of this yet) before I go, and I can look forward to the trip.
I would actually like to see their reaction when they recieve the papers, they would have just presumed that I hadn't gone through with the legal action. Perhaps better on my half, as they would not want the subject to re-start, and probably forgotten all about it.
I have written a diary of all happenings and communications so far, from day 1 of viewing the car, so I have everything I need, and no chance of forgetting anything.
Well...........thanks then guys. Looks as though this is it for now. (I hear a sigh of relieve from the forum lol) I will reincarnate this post in late April or early May, to let you know how things go.
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