I'm a bit annoyed. I try to do the right thing when I'm driving and one thing that bugs me is people who abuse disabled parking spaces. So this has one has got me.
Sign as follows:
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Disabled
badge
holders
only
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8am - 6pm
3 hours
No return
within 1 hour
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Now I, and everyone I've subsequently spoken to, interpret this as meaning that this parking bay is reserved for disabled badge holders between the hours of 8am and 6pm. I parked there at 19:40 this evening.
The ticket I got on my car earlier suggests my understanding of the sign is incorrect.
I've checked the highway code and there are no examples that have this kind of ambiguity that I can see. Is there anyone here who can explain why my interpretation is incorrect? It strikes me that if a sign is subject to "interpretation" then it has no validity.
I know I'm not alone in my interpretation as I asked a number of passers by what they took the sign to mean. I also asked the doorman at the pub and he said he's not seen tickets issued there before.
Before I send a "you can stick your ticket up your local authority multicultural all loving single mother biased backside" letter to the local council, can someone tell me I'm wrong IN LAW, not opinion, and back it up with the relevant detail? If it's so obscure that only a traffic cop might know it then I'd argue that no reasonable person could be expected to understand the sign.
Then again it my just be a yawning chasm in my understanding and I should never venture from my driveway again.
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If I saw that I'd assume that only disabled people were allowed to park there, and only between 8 and 6.
Just shows how ambiguous/bad signage translates to big bucks for the local beaureaucracy.
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"only" is the key word here.
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Having studied your thread's Notice details again, I'm also convinced that it IS only for disabled badge holders at any time and that the three hour limit is, as suggested by others, to prevent spaces being tied up for long periods and allow other disabled drivers the opportunity to use the space.
But it is ambiguous.
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What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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It's possible to read the sign as quoted meaning disabled badges only 24/7, with a time restriction to prevent the bay being used for (disabled) work/commuter parking.
The authoritative statement will be the Traffic Regulation Order made by the local authority, ask for a copy.
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It's possible to read the sign as quoted meaning disabled badges only 24/7, with a time restriction to prevent the bay being used for (disabled) work/commuter parking. The authoritative statement will be the Traffic Regulation Order made by the local authority, ask for a copy.
I agree it can be interpreted in the way you describe. I also agree the TRO is the definitive statement. I don't agree that it is reasonable for someone to have to request a TRO in order to understand a blinking parking restriction!
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When read in order ...
"Disabled badge holders only. 8am - 6pm 3 hours No return within 1 hour"
... it seems very clear that Disabled badge holders only may park here.
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I'm afraid I tend to agree with cheddar - that's how I interpreted the sign, but I do see your problem and agree that the sign is pointlessly ambiguous.
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I agree there is some ambiguity, might be worth a letter.
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I believe this is classed as a sign giving an order. If that order is, as David so succinctly put it, pointlessly ambiguous, it's hardly an order, is it?
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Sorry, I know I'm being pedantic here but I'm rather mortified to have unwittingly used a disabled space, if that is indeed what I have done.
For everyone's sake these things need to be absolutely clear I feel.
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$$,
I wish you the best of luck. It doesn't matter how hard you read into it after the event. It's a roadsign. You don't spend hours with your mates scrutinising it. The information should be clear from the start.
That's why I don't feel you've done anything wrong (even though yes I suppose you may have parked in a wrong space;-))
Good luck,
--
Adam
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Was it two plates?
The first bit is clear. The second bit is not. Does i tmean disabled badge holders can only park for three hours between the hours and as long as they like outside the hours?
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The key seems to be where the full stop is. It actually says "Disabled badge holders only." It then informs these badgeholders that they can not park for more than 3 hours during the day.
It doesn't say "Disabled badgeholders only from 8 am to 6pm" (or whatever)
Mind you, it takes some figuring out and is ambiguous (as, I find are many parking signs).
I don't suppose the authorities will have any sympathy - though I think most of us will understand your problem in interpretation.
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It is a single plate, albeit double height with a thin black line between the sections, just as portrayed above.
Full stop? Punctuation? On a local authority sign? That would make it clear and that would never do.
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Now I, and everyone I've subsequently spoken to, interpret this as meaning that this parking bay is reserved for disabled badge holders between the hours of 8am and 6pm.
Correct. It means exactly that.
www.westbournemouthukip.com/badge.htm (scroll down towards the bottom of the page in this link) "Your vehicle was observed in Yelverton Road which is clearly marked a restricted parking area, disabled badge holders only between the hours of 8am-6pm."
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Dont know what area/location that is involved but would presume some larger connurbation that has a Permitted Parking Area and Special Parking Area Order in force.
Also has not the sign with a small blue P with orange wheelchair under. Script in black letters which to me means that parking allowed only to the disabled in the times and conditions mentioned. Elsewhere parking prohibited and at that area other than disabled in the times mentioned also prohibited. which is why the ticket issued outside the times mentioned.
Before firing off to the LA you may consider visiting them and inspecting the Restriction Order for that area which should give chapter and verse of who can and when.
dvd
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Elsewhere parking prohibited and at that area other than disabled in the times mentioned also prohibited. which is why the ticket issued outside the times mentioned.
Sorry, but I don't follow you there. Would you mind clarifying please? Cheers.
Before firing off to the LA you may consider visiting them and inspecting the Restriction Order for that area which should give chapter and verse of who can and when.
But surely if you need to read the RO in order to be confident you have understood the sign it's akin to the Vogons declaring it acceptable to destroy earth as the plans were in a basement somewhere on Alpha Centauri.
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Looking at the Highway code online it would seem you may be able to suggest that the sign is confusing.
"The times at which the restrictions apply for other road markings are shown on nearby plates or on entry signs to controlled parking zones. If no days are shown on the signs, the restrictions are in force every day including Sundays and Bank Holidays."
"Waiting is limited TO the times and duration shown."
"Parking is limited AT the times for duration shown."
Regardless of what the council rules say & what the council says at the first or second appeal.
The fact remains most appeals succeed at the third appeal & the council has a duty to place signs which do not confuse & which conform to the law, so unless the parking bay had disabled parking only on the road the sign is open to interpretation.
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www.westbournemouthukip.com/badge.htm (scroll down towards the bottom of the page in this link) "Your vehicle was observed in Yelverton Road which is clearly marked a restricted parking area, disabled badge holders only between the hours of 8am-6pm."
Oh lordy, she's so blind and frail that she can't tell if a blue pass with a picture on it is upside down or not....
AND SHE IS STILL DRIVING?????
I'm going to find a quiet place to lie down for a few minutes.
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Oh lordy, she's so blind and frail that she can't tell if a blue pass with a picture on it is upside down or not.... AND SHE IS STILL DRIVING?????
It is not a requirement that a passenger has to be able to see properly.
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We have a similarly confusing sign in the street outside our office.
Residents Parking only 4.30pm-9.00am
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8.30am-5pm Business Permit Holder or pay at meter.
The area is mixed use and has a few residents, but very few have cars parked on the street. There are plenty of spaces and not at all simialr to other inner costies where cars fight for every available space.
There is a theatre down the road and the people attending performances are very confused as it appears from the sign that public parking is unauthorised ater 4.30pm when this is not the case. I've been to meetings where it has been discussed and at each one the Highway Engineer refuses to accept the sign is a problem when even he agrees what it says is not what is intended and anyone can in fact park free after 5pm!
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Having been for a lunchtime stroll round Breams Buildings and Fetter Lane (City of London)I've found two examples similar that in the OP. Contain the same top section "Disabled Badge Holders Only" accompanied by the P for parking logo. Two further boxes prescribe "At any time" for holders of City Disabled badges and time and duration limits in peak hours for holders all other disabled badges.
To be honest its difficult to read them as anything other than permanent disabled bays with supplementary restrictions.
If there's a discounted penalty I'd pay it now to avoid being "More $kint"!!!
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Does the appeals process stop the clock on parking tickets or do they just laugh as the 14 days pass by and up the bill? The local council parking website doesn't give any clues on this.
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You could always send then 30 separate cheques for £1 whilst they're going through the appeals process. The cost of them processing these and the bank charges they'll incur may make them decide to either not cash the cheques or to reurn them to you and admit that you are right.
--
I read often, only post occasionally
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$$
I think the answer is "it depends". Strictly speaking the penalty is (say) £60. The offer of 50% discount is to encourage the guilty and those not prepared to fight to settle early and without the Council incurring expense chasing them.
Some Councils will still allow the discount after they've rejected informal submissions from the driver. Most take a firmer line after they've served a notice to owner and you can't kick off the formal appeals process to the independant adjudicator until they've done so.
Ther's more useful information on the adjudicators websites at www.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk/ (for London) and www.parking-appeals.gov.uk/ outside London.
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I would take it up with your local newspaper - it's one that's quite likely to create quite a bit of controversy and that will go down well with the news editor, especially as it will doubtless feature a big pic of the sign.
It will also highlight your position as well as help other motorists in the future and you could well miss out on paying a parking fine...:-)
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What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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I have NO intention of placing myself in the hands of the local hacks and aiding them in circulating their dire rag in any way shape or form. But I can see some might appreciate the opportunity to have their picture taken, looking suitably glum, whilst stood under the offending sign.
Thanks for the link to the parking regs website. The first appeal to the council stops the clock but as soon as they say "no" it starts ticking again. You can only escalate the matter once it has gone past the 14 day period.
Not exactly an incentive for them to be fair and impartial, especially in the matter of a sign they commissioned!
Ah rats. I'll pay the blooming thing.
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Most appeals fail the first time, it's called bullying.
The council has put the signs up, it enforces the rules & over See's the first appeal.
Take it further & they then start to become more accountable & surprise, surprise. They, like most bullies, start to loose when it comes to justification of that behaviour.
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>>I have NO intention of placing myself in the hands of the local hacks>>
Your loss not theirs - your story wouldn't alter the circulation figures by much more than the number of your friends and family...:-)
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What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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Forgive me if this has already been mentioned, as im very tired.
The sign says to me:-
Disabled badge holders only can park in the space (any time), and between the hours 8am-6pm disabled badge holders are limited to 3 hours with no return for 1 hour.
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Seems clear to me. The first bit says it is a disabled parking space, the second stipulates some restrictions between certain hours.
If you saw a sign saying "Car Park" and then some time restrictions, would you take that to mean it was OK for lorries, caravans, etc outside the restricted hours?
Or "Tesco Car Park, limit 2 hours between 9-5" to mean it was anybody's park outside those hours?
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$$
May I suggest you appeal, let us know how you get on and if you're successful, give the money to the Safety Camera Partnership:)
H
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to mean it was anybody's park outside those hours?>>
Our main town centre supermarket car parks (free parking) in all cases stipulate a maximum parking time allowed of two hours or face a hefty fee.
The reason is simple. It stops town centre workers parking their vehicles all day and blocking the parking spaces for genuine shoppers.
Before the measure was introduced it was often impossible to find a parking space in order to go to the store despite the many parking spaces available.
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What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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IMHO It is a 24/7 disabled parking bay with restrictions (for the
Disabled) between the hours shown.
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I have been reading this article for several days now. You talk of disabled parking spaces and the road sign. However you have failed to clarify if the road was clearly marked as a bay with the word disabled on the road as well. This could have a major implication on the interpretation of the sign.
Personally I believe it is meant as a disabled bay at all times, but between 8am and 6pm no disabled driver is allowed to park for longer than 3 hours, on any day of the week.
I agree the sign wording could lead to ambiguity, but my policy has always been to be cautious with any specialist parking bay (including Doctor, Nurse, Disabled, etc.). I always believe that a short walk is better than a possible fine.
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