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I was going to suggest that the cause of the problem may be that when you get to the M25, the inside lane becomes the slip road for the junction, therefore to stay on the M3 you have to filter across to the middle lane, and people are obviously making sure they do this early - very early. But then I realised that no-one ever stays on the M3 at the M25 junction, so that's that theory out the window.
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I like lane 1.
Bags of space and room to dodge things "in extremis".
Some nights on the M1 J22-30 it's as if the whole lane thing has been turned around. Traffic crawling in Lane 3, moving nicely in Lane 1.
(do most shunts happen in lane 3, I wonder?)
And does anyone else think that this got worse in the last five years, or is this the effect of age?
rg
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ND,
I've just read on page 38 of the 5's manual. "Should your new BMW have been delivered in any of the many silver hues, featured in our catalogue, need you ever bother to drive in lane 1. This just confuses the lower orders."
(Fireball that's another joke btw)
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[grinding teeth]
It was just as bad on the way home tonight......
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Wait until the M25 has been widened to the supposed 5 lanes each way between M3 and M4. What chance of correct lane useage?
My bet is that all but the 2 outer lanes will move relatively freely.... until they all clog up.
Why is it that on the few occasions that I use the M25, 90percent of people seem to want to join then get straight into the "outside" lane?
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M25 is a bit of an oddity. DoT actively encourages you to "Stay in Lane" on the M25 as the sheer volume of traffic negates any benefit from the "keep left" school of motoring.
In other words, it's the only motorway in the UK where undertaking is actively encouraged. It's great!
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Spare a thought for some of us peasants who do not always have the luxury of a medium sized vehicle to scoot from A to B at speed.
Try driving in the truck ruts of the M25 in a old Uno with skinny tyres (and I do not mean low profile). It is quite worrying and hard or even dangerous work so I for one will ignore lane one on some sections and you can flash your lights (HWC says it is to say "I am here") to which I can wave back to acknowledge.
If the road surface is OK then I will happily plod along in lane one.
If I am in a faster vehicle then I totally agree the sentiments expressed by others. Nothing legal can make them move over.
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Right, off to give it another go......
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What you guys have missed is that these people actually don't know how an engine works .But since as children they played with Scalextric, they guess that if they move from the centre the car will stop .
In fact the only time they dare move is when traffic queues and they experiment with pointless lane changes then.
There is an even more dangerous type about, who thinks his car will only work in lane 3. I saw some one join a busy motorway recently who went straight from the slip to lane 3 . Happily for him his engine kept going and the 20 or so other drivers he caused to brake were alert enough to read his problem
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Muppet on the M60 this morning, in the rain, just outside Stockport. I'm trundling along in lane 3, and muppet has just joined the motorway from the M56. Comes straight over into lane 3, just about 10 feet infront of me. I had no option but to move into lane 2 and undertake, and quickly had to pull back into 3 to avoid traffic ahead. Muppet who caused the manouvre then had the cheek to mainbeam me for about 1/2 mile.
I despare!
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Sometimes people flash me with their headlights at times like that too.
It makes me think that there is a danger ahead that I haven't seen. So I have to slow down. They usually appreciate this so much that they spend the rest of the journey flashing me whenever they see another danger that I haven't noticed. Sometimes these invisible dangers come thick and fast.
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Yes, and putting your fog lights on, while letting your auto-dimming rear view mirror deal with their mainbeam, doesn't seem to get the message through that they have accidentally knocked their main beam on.
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Or perhaps they can see the magic fog that no-one else can?
Anyway, as its clearly there, best I turn my fog lights on to help.
Sorry - was that fog or just (red) mist?
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Just for fun I decided to make full use of lane 1 at 70mph whenever possible this morning. Oh the gesticulation, the howling, the swerving in from lane 2 to block my impudence. Whenever a truck appeared in view (not that frequently) I would signal and patiently await a space. Mysteriously they would all shrink as the numbskulls drove to within feet of each other to stop the new boy from changing the rules of their game.
After about 5 incidents like this I took to accelerating to 90 and then jamming on the brakes as I indicated (two flashes only)and rocketed across to lane 2, then back into lane 1 straight afterwards. This is considered acceptable, although the return to lane 1 can be considered a little flamboyant.
Tried flashing lorries/vans in lane 2 from lane 1 in case they were awaiting the universal signal for \"I\'ll do your driving for you and tell you when it\'s ok to pull back in\" but this failed as well.
One bloke in a Vecta estate (dodgy headlamp, but it showed up his nice new blue sidelights, so that\'s ok) took serious umbrage at my temerity in using lane 1 and at one point was within 4 ft of the van in front at 80mph with no clue what was happening ahead. I\'m delighted to report that the van driver was a late and violent braker.
Oh, and then I had to endure 55minutes of London Underground where today I was invisible and could be crushed, bashed, sat on, prodded and used as a paper stand by all and sundry. I got to work and had to check my coat for a target roundel!
I think I may have to rely on standard London Underground trick \"A\" for a peaceful journey. When it\'s warm, wear an extra coat and just one wollen glove and spend the entire journey talking to it. Guaranteed a seat. Obviously when it\'s cold you remove all coats and repeat the glove trick.
....Tonight I go shopping for sharp knives and heavy armaments. Or maybe valium.
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For the motorway I would recommend blue lights to flash to make the stream of vehicles part like the red sea. On the underground I would recommend bouts of extreme flatulence which will guarantee lots of personal space without having to appear mad. You may even wish to use one of those remote control wind noise machines rather than run the risk of making your own eyes water.
teabelly
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But at least talking to my glove offers the benefit of not having to read yesterday's evening standard regurgitated as "Metro". The alternative of using my PDA and having it nicked by a bunch of teenagers at Wembley Park also lacks appeal.
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"Guaranteed a seat"
Yes, but why do you always sit next to me?
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I have, on the odd occasion, become so fed up of the awful driving style of some people on motorways, that I have decided to stretch the meaning of the undertaking exception (you can do it if you're all caught in queues)
This usually comes about when there is a vehicle in lane 2, usually a muppet driving there for no reason. This then prompts a huge crown of further muppets. Rather than use all three lanes of the motorway until a need to move over occurs, they turn into lane 3 as early as possible, a huge distance behind the lane 2 obstruction. Following muppet traffic see this, and even though they themselves are so far back they can't even SEE an obstruction, also move into lane 3. Result? A 3 mile queue in lane 3, all travelling at 0.0004mph faster than the lane 2 obstruction, meanwhile lane 1 and 2 are empty.
Well, they're in a queue, aren't they? Even if it is of there own making. So I sail past, in lane 1, at a steady 60 or 70 mph, whichever I decide is reasonable for the time, and will cause no danger. When I get to the obstruction, THEN I move into lane 3, once I'm past it, back to 1.
Although sometimes, when it's a muppet obstruction, I must admit, I stay in lane 1, and carry on past.
And yes, I know it's probably wrong, but the alternative is to join in the mass idiocy.
Occasionally, I see a car on the motorway which has no outward signs that it's being driven by a muppet. Doesn't convince me though.
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I had a situation last night on the M25 (anticlock on the bit on the South stretch that's 4 lanes and quite steep uphill), where I was in lane 3 and predictably I approached the car in front which was overtaking nothing but thin air. I gave her (it was a her, I am not just assuming) a flash or two and she moved over. After I had passed, I looked in my mirror only to see her return to lane 3 - presumably to give herself a nice 1-lane cushion between her and the nasty trucks that were struggling up the hill in lane 1. Unbelievable.
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Not sure I like this "I am a fantastic driver and anyone who doesn't drive like me is a muppet" attitude really.
I hate driving in lane 1 because of my small car in the lorry tracks. (Also because Polo is happier at 80 than 65mph).
I hate driving in lane 2 because of the spray and the proximity to the lorries in lane 1. So, even if the motorway is quiet, I prefer to drive in lane 3, assuming there's noone else trying to get past, in which case I'll move over.
Do my life and car preservation techniques make me a muppet?
But then, I hate driving in lane 3 because I'm paranoid a car on the other carriageway will come flying through the crash barrier and hit me. Rock... hard place..
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I do see your point PoloGirl, and for what it's worth, if I were to see your driving manner, I wouldn't feel you a muppet (although, I'm not sure if I would have worked out your reasons, without this explanation). The point being that you do pay attention to what's behind, and do move out of the way of faster traffic.
What makes a muppet is the people who by their driving manner, unnecessarily delay others, and themselves for that matter, via lack of attention, lack of manners, lack of intelligence, whatever.
And yes, you're quite right, I'm probably wrong to call others, I'm sure there are things I do that annoy other people on the road.
Lane discipline is something that annoys so many though, and it's so, so easy to do right, just common sense, yet so many people don't.
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Yes, you are a muppet driving like that! You are just the kind of person ND is referring to, no lane discipline at all.
If you are scared of lorries and some spray, I suggest you don't take the motorway but maybe settle for back roads, or even public transport!
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I personally prefer the inside lane, (although I am a regular user of both middle and outside lane as well), as I feel safer having the hard shoulder to use in the event of an emergency....also handy to be here if stuck in the 'giant-car-park-which-moves-occasionally' that is the M25 watching as your temperature gauge starts creeping up to the 'hot hot hot' end of the scale and your bonnet starts emitting steam/smoke etc!!
The way to avoid all the lumps and bumps which occur in the inside lane is to stick to the right hand side of said lane...at least it works on the bit of the M25 that I drive most regularly.
Have we mentioned the drivers that see a lorry in the far far distance and decide to move out right there and then to overtake without adjusting their speed at all???
;o)
Fill what's empty, empty what's full and scratch where it itches!
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I think there should be an express statement by The Powers That Be that \"undertaking\" is permitted. This would suddenly increase the country\'s motorway capacity by 1/3 and the dual carriageway capacity in many places would double.
But no. Instead the police (and of course, traffic wardens etc etc) will now get the power to confiscate the cars of \"undertakers\" snipurl.com/3y65
since - guess what \"Police says they will target drivers who undertake....\" but of course that rule about returning to the leftmost lane after undertaking is never enforced!
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A few months back I followed a police motorcyclist on the M4 who was waving centre lane hogs into lane 1. First and last time I've ever seen that tho.
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I suspect most of the muppets either don't know (think slow lane/fast lane) or don't think. Need for driver education, public information films etc. Should have been covered on the Great British Driving test, or perhaps have Ken Barlow stopped and fined for the offence?
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Wouldn't it be great if patrol cars, instead of creating a hazard by doing 60 in lane 1 thereby causing needless breaking by scaredy cats too afraid to go past a police car at even 71mph, travelled the mways at 70. This would get them out into the middle lane every now and then and might prompt some action against those who are too good for lane 1.
Actually, aren't police cars like taxi's? Either going really fast or really slow - never just getting on with it like the rest of us;-)
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On the trip home last night I encountered another member of the great british public who was out to take my life.
Accelerating down the slip to join the motorway, I check over my shoulder to see what the traffic is like on the main carriageway. Just one car is going to be at or near to the point where I join the main carriageway, and it's in lane 2. Keep an eye on the car and estimate that I will join just as it is passing. Not a problem, as car is in lane 2.
Then at the critical moment, about a second off me joining lane 1, muppet moves over into lane 1, without any indication, thus putting us on a course to meet our maker.
Two choices, either brake hard, in the rain, and risk a pile up with those behind, or use the hard shoulder. No brainer really. Hard shoulder and hard on the horn. The other drivers response? A flash of the main beam, to chastise me no doubt.
There was absolutely no need for that car to have moved into lane 1. All 3 lanes were clear both infront and behind it. Obviously just a total lack of observation on their part.
And PoloGirl, sorry if this is confrontational, but if you are not confident driving on a motorway, then you shouldnt be on a motorway. Yes, I know you have as much right as everyone else to be there, but there are plenty of A, B and C roads on which you would feel confident.
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Just before Xmas, I was coming up the A2 towards London, just having joined from the M25. Lots of traffic in lane 3 (it's a three-lane dual carriageway), none in 2 and in lane 1, only one black sedan about half a mile ahead. So I go leisurely up lane 1 at about 77mph (indicated, so about 73 real). The black sedan is not going fast, probably about 50. But quite a while before I catch it up, it suddenly moves into lane 2, for no reason whatsoever - there is nothing ahead of it in lane 1, no obstruction - nothing.
Well now, there is still quite a lot of traffic in lane 3, moving a bit slower than I am in lane 1. So - I undertake, quite undramatically. The black sedan is perfectly aware of what I am doing and makes no attempt to block my progress. Strange, I think, and carry on. Then my neck-hairs rise (literally!) and I take a long look in the mirror - yes, there, quite a way back but in range to have seen the entire procedure, is one of the Kent Force's finest.
Uh-oh, I think, and slow down to the polite 69.5mph (indicated, so in reality about 66) which is recommended for these circumstances. The police car approaches but stays quiet and about 100 yards behind me (in lane 2 - what was he overtaking? nothing). I carry on. Eventually I catch up with some traffic in lane 2. Although there is nothing in lane 1 I avoid undertaking. Still can't go into lane 3 (no, that would have been "swerving in and out of traffic") so I just have to slow down to the speed of the lane 2 occupiers. Police car also slows down and stays in lane 2, obviously wondering what I am going to do. (He's still not overtaking anything - what's he doing in lane 2?) Finally I approach the next junction. This game of nerves is no fun any more so I slow down even more, making the police car approach, still in lane 2 - and then, just as the off-slip is beside me, I indicate and immediately disappear up the ramp to the roundabout above the junction. The gallant officer sails on in lane 2.
I consider rejoining the A2 immediately but on second thoughts delay (by making a small detour). When I eventually rejoin, what do I find on the hard shoulder shortly after the junction? Yes, quite right, the black sedan deep in conversation with my friend from the constabulary...
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I have been told (unofficially) by a traffic plod that they would not regard passing a vehicle on the inisde, when that vehicle was clearly failing to return to the left after some time , as an offence.
Also, he reckoned that if you were already in the lane to their left and just continued on a straight course up their inside (as opposed to moving from immediately behind them in the same lane to immediately in front), this would not be regarded as an offence in itself.
However, he cautioned that if the worst happened and an accident occurred, the "undertaker" could/would be blamed. That's why I only ever do it if there's a spare lane/hard shoulder to my left as an escape route, and I keep a very close eye on the offending vehicle.....
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I was pulled 2 years ago for undertaking. 6 am, saturday morning, very empty M56. I was leaving at J7. Car ahead had been in lane 2 forever, as I closed the distance in lane 1. I indicated to come off and passed the car at the 300 yard marker for the exit.
Plod behind followed me and pulled me. Normally I am very polite when stopped, but this time I mouthed back. I quickly backed down when jobsworth told me i could explain it to a judge if I wanted to.
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My comments were ever so slightly tongue in cheek by the way!
It is annoying when people dont move over but I can't see it's worth getting this annoyed about. Sing along to a CD or something and let your blood pressure go down a tad.
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It is annoying when people dont move over but I can't see it's worth getting this annoyed about. Sing along to a CD or something and let your blood pressure go down a tad.
No, far better to focus your anger on summoning small demons to loosen various bits of trim in your nemesis' car. Until the use of anti-tank weapons on the queen's highway is legalised.
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My comments were ever so slightly tongue in cheek by the way! It is annoying when people dont move over but I can't see it's worth getting this annoyed about. Sing along to a CD or something and let your blood pressure go down a tad.
Isn't there a law in Italy stating something along the lines of you are legally allowed to *nudge* the car in front of you gently on the rear bumper if you feel that he/she is in your way or not moving fast enough and holding you up.
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Didn't witness it myself when over there this summer, but then the car was still bedecked with wedding ribbons for the duration of our time in sunny Italy.
Still think Anti-tank weapons are the answer.....
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Went to Milan once and asked local colleague how they extricated cars which were boxed in by double parking (the norm in Milan). Acceptable methods are to either use the pavement until there is a gap big enough to join the road, or nudge other cars out the way. Apparently it is customary to leave the handbrake off when parked to facilitate the maneouvres.
Not sure how much of this is truth and how much is laugh at tourists expense. But frankly not sure how else you could do it!
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I often, when driving along the M3 see the traffic flow inverted: that is the outside lane the slowest, middle the second slowest and inside the fastest. It is common to obsreve frustrated folks overtaking on the inside which of course is illegal in this country. In the States this practice is allowed and leads to less frustration, do you think we should adopt that approach here?
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This happens in heavyish traffic due to the bunching effect of the number of cars in each lane. There are twice as many cars in the fast lane as they all want to go faster (but can't). When the fast lane comes to a grinding halt, drivers bale out, often dangerously, into the middle lane. Allowing overtaking on both sides would probably be safer as there mould be no need to bunch up in the fast lane.
In light traffic, however, I think our system is better - otherwise you'd get 100mph drivers weaving all over the place when they find slower drivers in their lane.
By the way, can anyone define "undertaking". It can't simply mean passing someone on the left, as in the situation above thousands would be guilty. I think the rule says something about the varying speeds of lanes in traffic and that it is OK to pass in these circumstances. But what if you legitimately change lanes (to the left), the lane you are in then travels faster than the middle lane, and then 5 minutes later you move back into the middle lane. Have you conducted an illegal manoeuvre?
Perhaps you need to make a note of the car you were behind before you changed lane, so that you only change back once that car has moved ahead of you?!
Mattster
Boycott shoddy build and reliability.
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Had another classic day on Friday. A316 from Hammersmith down to M3 then on down to M27, then A31 and home.
Middle lane full of cruisers doing 65 or so and refusing to move into a completely empty left lane. I made a point of correctly overtaking each one before returning to the left lane and leaving my indicator on for a couple of extra flashes to make the point. Not one person took the hint.
Prize wally goes to the driver of the overloaded and underpowered C200 merc estate, sat in lane 3 at exactly 70, no rear visibility due to the boot of the car being loaded to the ceiling. Didn't move over once in 40 miles, but was repeatedly undertaken. At all times there was a minimum of 10 cars stacked behind this moron. I watched all this from the comfort of lane 1.
OK, so the limit is 70. That's one law. There's another requiring you to pull over when you complete an overtaking manouvere, so their little bit of self-policing really didn't add anything to road safety.
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first of all, no dosh, the M3 IS two lanes only most of the way between Winchester and Basingstoke - isn't it?
I agree about the driving, it seems that there are hot spots:
1. around Southampton on the M27 between the end of the M3 and the M271
2. the hill through the historic ridge up to the A272 junction
3. between Camberley and the M25
But then when it was the A33 it was much worse wasn't it?
I find myself that if it is at all possible to avoid rush hour traffic and London weekenders the M3 is transformed into a gorse-lined cruise. But if you can't change the time you drive please just nibble a Caramac and say in your best Dorset voice "These grockles in the outside lane just can't drive for toffee can they? Ah well, up to me to drive safely then..." I have seen a couple of unpredictable nasty crashes on the M3 and want all Backroomers to stay safe!
pat
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first of all, no dosh, the M3 IS two lanes only most of the way between Winchester and Basingstoke - isn\'t it?
One lane and a mobile crane as a rule, but technically, yes.
But then when it was the A33 it was much worse wasn\'t it?
Yes, I remember how awful it was when you still had to negotiate the Hockley lights at Twyford Gap and the miracle of concrete known as Spitfire Bridge
I find myself that if it is at all possible to avoid rush hour traffic and London weekenders the M3 is transformed into a gorse-lined cruise.
Sadly not possible, but I only do the run twice a week and stay up in London for the remainder of the week.
But if you can\'t change thetime you drive please just nibble a Caramac and say in your best Dorset voice \"These grockles in the outside lane just can\'t drive for toffee can they? Ah well, up to me to drive safely then...\"
I think it\'s pronounced \"Darrrzzet\"
I have seen a coupleof unpredictable nasty crashes on the M3 and want all Backroomers to stay safe!
Ditto, hence my returning to lane one at the earliest opportunity. A much prefer 3/4mile of braking distance to 76inches!
ND
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and long may you continue not to have to try out your braking distance!
pat
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You are obliged to drive in lane 1 unless overtaking, staying out in 2& 3 restricts the traffic flow and annoys folks intensely
I drive the M3 every day and it is getting much worse.
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Yup, and you\'re obliged to stick to 70 as well.
Sadly the disrepute that law 2 has fallen in to means that law 1 is universally ignored.
As an aside (moderator hat on), I moved your earlier post on undertaking v. overtaking to this thread as it was on an identical subject. Your new thread will be appended to this one shortly for the same reason.
No Dosh
mailto:Alan_moderator@honestjohn.co.uk
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Many drivers ars now overtaking on the inside lanes on motorways. This practice is allowed in the USA and once you are used to it seems perfectly ok. Do you think this should be legal in the UK.?
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We have all come across someone driving in the fast lane slowly. You can either sit behind them and wait/hope they will pull in and you can pass. You can sit behind them and flash your lights and prepare yourself for the abusive gestures and the brakes bieng slammed on. Or you can gently manouvere down the inside lane and wait for them to suddenly swerve into you.
Years ago I did a lot of driving around California and thought the idea of underaking was great as long as you were aware of what was happening around you.
Some people in this country will never get used to the idea and I feel it could get quite dangerous as some people would think it gives them a right to swerve in and out of lanes at high speed whilst others try to slam into you as you legally undertake them.
Not sure if it should be legal, it would be nice to hear the Police's attitude towards this subject.
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I asked my Police class 1 Ride & Drive instructor about this and he said there was nothing wrong with an undertake as you describe in his book providing you weren't aggressively weaving in out of the lanes at ludicrous speed. Problem is, the time you try it you might come a Trafpol with a different view.
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Can somebody explain an increasingly frequent observation.
Middle lane numpty trundling lane 2, eventually comes up to overtake someone in lane 1.
Numpty moves to lane 3 naturally without signalling thus leaving one clear lane between them and slower vehicle in lane 1.
Any ideas what prompts this behaviour?
Saturday night M42 that happened to me. The fact that I had not long before signalled and moved into lane 3 and had about 20 mph differential speed on the pair of them was seemingly of total irrelevance.
As an aside I have had to make a mental note to avoid any road within 10 miles of Ikea on a Sunday morning. Cannot recall such a concentrated exhibition of totally moronic mindless driving in one 30 minute period as seen on M5/M6 last weekend.
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Undertaking was suite for the 5, 6 and 7 lane highways in the states but not here. Regards Peter
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"By the way, can anyone define "undertaking". It can't simply mean passing someone on the left, as in the situation above thousands would be guilty."
I think it is important to make this distinction. My own interpretation is that undertaking means manoeuvring past another vehicle ie changing lane to get past. If you are travelling at a steady speed in a single lane you will be "passing" slower moving traffic in another lane.
A common misconception but it is not legal in the US to undertake. However it is perfectly legal to pass on the inside.
There is same provision in our own Highway Code for passing on the inside, however the rules are so vague concerning relative speeds and/or moving in queues that I would be very reluctant to test it out in court.
A traffic cop with good common sense should have no problem if you pass on the inside in the right conditions. However, common sense these days is in short supply and there a too many jobsworths around.
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Uneventful drive home (one p****** with only one headlight and no functioning sidelights) with plenty of lane changing.....
And then I get to Southampton and find a Mondeo and a 740 estate half way up the embankment having somehow passed over the armco. The fact that they were both facing back towards the road (well, what was left of them, which was a suprising amount given their location) having skipped the barrier gives an indication of the type of accident. I suspect a fair amount of spinning was involved, so perhaps a lane change that went wrong.
Ambulance was in attendance, as were the boys in blue.
If you know anyone involved, pass on best wishes for a speedy recovery. It could have been any of us.
ND
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