Cheers, DD!
If ayone hasn't seen them, they are truly amazing.
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These cats eyes are used on a very bendy and dangerous unimproved section of the A590 in Cumbria.
Unfortunately, young drivers use this section to do what you RECKLESSLY did - ie driving through it with your lights off, to get some kind of thrill ride - a real-life version of a video game perhaps?
One recent occurence resulted in three teenagers being killed instantly.
DON'T ANYOBODY ELSE TRY IT!!!!!!
Thankyou.
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longdriver,
i drive that stretch of A590 regularly, and think that the cats-eyes on that 1-mile section of road are perhaps one of the best road safety improvements the council ever have implemented in my local area of cumbria!. I.M.O i would like to see these installed on every road, especially on the rural unlit roads (like A595 ). such a pity that reckless kids can abuse them,(and get themselves killed). read recently (thurs/fri) that because of this, the council are now considering removing them and re-installing the standard head-light activated ones. pity really, because this is like a step back in time (like the demise of concord) i think a lot more lives/injuries would be saved by continuing and extending their use.
billy.
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Yes it's very sad isn't it that good ideas such as this are ruined by the actions of morons and we therefore all have to be treated as potential idiots.
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There are some on the A420, between Longcot and Great Coxwell. If you look in your door mirror as you go past them, you get a strobing effect.
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I saw them on a TV program years ago - some road safety type thingy with, I think, Penny Junor (SP?). The ones shown changed colour if the temperature was below freezing as a warning.
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The A24 South of Dorking has had them for many months.
Nothing special about the dual carriage way.
They are certainly impressive but just a little disconcerting first time as there is no warning.
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When I first saw these I found them very disconcerting. In fact they probably made me more dangerous because I was frequently looking out of the window to my right and in the mirror to see if the cateyes were lit rather than concentrating on the road in front of me.
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They have installed some near The Belfry on the A446 north of Birmingham between the A38 and the M42.
I personally think that they are superb.
Paul
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As cats' eyes don't actually emit light, merely reflect it, presumably these things aren't correctly called catseyes any more? So the original Mr Catseye, whatever he was called, is going to start losing some of his famous penny an eye royalties if these catch on.
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Liverpaul - I use A446 a few times a year and noticed these about 12 months ago. I used the road about 8 weeks ago and nearly all of them are missing, resulting in no cats eyes whatsoever - result dangerous road!
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So the original Mr Catseye, whatever he was called,....
Percy Shaw from Halifax.
WE've had these as an experiment for a couple of years on a local dual carriageway.
The whites and greens are OK, for some strange reason the ambers were still the old style reflective studs last time I looked.
The reds seemed to be not that bright nor particularly reliable.
However they've almost all been changed back to reflectives which are nowhere near as good IMO.
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Workmen have started installing these solar "catseyes" on the M8 just approaching Newhouse Junction 6.
Felt like I was driving down a runway. Expected to see a 747 in my mirror!
Interesting however, when you do a forum search for something like this, you find it has been introduced elsewhere, in some cases problems found, in others replaced back with the reflective type, but here we are just installing them for the first time up here! Wonder if they have been improved any!
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>> >> So the original Mr Catseye, whatever he was called,.... Percy Shaw from Halifax.
>>
I saw a TV documentary about Percy Shaw some years ago. Even though he was a millionaire at the time, he had no lounge carpets so that visitors could stub their cigarettes out on the floor and he had no curtains because they would have harboured the cigarette smoke smell. Honestly ~ they actually showed him in his lounge. If I remember correctly, he had several televisions in his lounge and they were all on at the same time so that his visitors could each watch a different programme if they wanted to.
Eccentric or what?
--
L'escargot by name, but not by nature.
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The story goes that Percy Shaw was so impressed with the way light reflected back from his pet cat's eyes that he set to to replicate the effect for road safety.
If the cat had been going the other way he would, of course, have invented the pencil sharpener!
Terry
"Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand"
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quite a few countries in Europs have no cats eyes, old or new type, on their main roads .....
makes for 'interesting' driving at night - especially through a tunnel we drove through in Bosnia - no cats eyes, no illumination inside (long tunnel so no visible light) ..... v. scary and makes you appreciate all the British councils that fit them onto our roads.....
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L'escargot - I remember that programme as well , it was Alan Whicker.
His favourite TV programme was the wrestling and he had crates of brown ale scattered around his lounge.
Old Percy was a true tight wad Yorkshire character and IIRC he used to run a Rolls Royce as his only extravagence.
He was not a businessman and although rich he could have been a lot richer if he had developed and marketed his ideas to other countries. He would not let anyone else manufacture the cats eye anywhere in the world. He wanted to retain control.
When I worked in Civil Engineering we had to go to his company whenever we tendered for a major road contract.No one else could supply.
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It's OK if the Council remember to put them back after resurfacing: one bendy bit I use was resurfaced a year ago: reulting in catseyes on the straight bit and nothing on the bends.
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This all good stuff and very helpful to road safety! I do recall that when they were first proposed there was also a scheme to put optical speed recording devices in them as well. Did anything ever come of that "cunning plan", does anyone know?
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>>Percy Shaw from Halifax.>>
Percy Shaw died in 1976 at the age of about 86 - he patented his self-cleaning "cat's eyes" back in 1935.
Apart from the theory that he got the idea from observing a cat's eyes shining because they reflected light, there's another one that it was the fact that he could see tramlines for some distance even in fog.
Shaw himself gave another reason when appearing in an Alan Whicker interview. He said: "I saw this reflecting road sign one foggy night at Queensbury when I was coming out of Rose Linda?s pub and I thought to myself: ?We want those things down on the road, not up there.?"
"So I pinched two or three reflectors, took ?em home and laiked about with them. I must have mucked ?em about hundreds of times before I got ?em right and saw what I could do with ?em."
I think every motorist must have been delighted that he did, indeed, muck them about.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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i think he died some years back with no family inheriting i could be wrong on the no family bit but i know thats what i heard some time ago.
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www.theherald.co.uk/news/14493.html
above article in today's paper is a follow up to my earlier post discussing these cats eyes being installed on the M8. It would appear that these lights are more clever than I first thought...
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After a bit of a break i come back to fnd there are still stupid people out there!
I quote "They have the capacity to measure a car's speed but details would be used to slow down traffic THUS IMPROVING ROAD SAFETY"
No, no you're wrong. Completely wrong. Slow traffic does not equal safe traffic! Accidents will never be reduced when we rely on this fallacy for safety. Where does this kind of 'misinformation' come from?
Hmm, gunna take me the rest of the day to cool down now, :'(
Kev
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Hmmm, won't be long before they make some that CAN read number plates
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Wake up: this camera exists, and it's being trialled.
They are only at the development stage, but the latest traffic cameras are here. So Charles Arthur takes a little peep
20 April 2004
enjoyment.independent.co.uk/images/editorial_image...g
It sounds like the speeder's nightmare. A speed camera accurate up to 150mph which can be concealed in road studs as small as a cat's eye indicator, and which can also - as you're passing - cast a glance at your tyres to see if they're a bit bald.
But the anti-camera lobby can rest easy for a while. The Department for Transport says that there is no way that these cameras, designed and made by a British company called Astucia, will ever be used for "enforcement" to level fines and penalty points. However, they will start being tested around the country later this year, as part of the wider efforts to encourage motorists to respect speed limits.
Martin Dicks, the founder of Astucia, previously worked for the Fire Service, where he says that he saw so many "grisly sights" from the results of road accidents that he became determined to find effective ways to reduce them. The camera is just 130mm in diameter, and can protrude from the surface by just 5mm; and it is linked to a computer that, says Mr Dicks, can read and decode number plates written in both italic and cursive scripts.
"The idea is that you would use it in the approach to somewhere with a lower speed limit," explained Mr Dicks. "The camera will look at each oncoming vehicle and measure its speed. Then you'll have illuminated road studs [also developed by Astucia] that will light up on the approach to a pedestrian crossing, say, and a sign that could light up with the number plate telling people to slow down."
The camera is a logical follow-on from Astucia's self-lighting road studs, now being trialled in Hampshire. These are intended to give motorists advance warning about traffic lights they might be unable to see due to fog or high-sided vehicles ahead. When the lights ahead were green, the studs would remain dark. But as the lights turned amber, so do the studs, flashing twice a second until the lights turn red. The studs marking the lanes would also flash.
Used in the US, the studs are claimed to have reduced accidents by 80 per cent. The tiny speed cameras would be the next step on the road to safety, and the Scottish Office is understood to be testing them in Motherwell.
But Mr Dicks said that he completely understands those who might feel that their driving enjoyment is impaired by the prospect of more, and tinier, cameras to monitor them.
"There are different aspects to speeding. If you're doing 70mph in a 30mph limit, then I think everybody would agree that that's wrong. If you're doing 35mph in a 30mph limit in the country, then I can understand people getting upset if they get nicked.
"But the whole principle around speed cameras is that you don't want to get nicked. So you want to light the road up to say that you're entering a speed limit zone, and that there's a reason for it being there, such as a pedestrian crossing, where there's the possibility of serious injury. Let's face it, anyone who goes through 200 metres of flashing lights and a sign showing their numberplate is definitely in the wrong."
The mini-cameras are also so accurate that they can assess the tread of your tyres, he says -- although this would be more useful, he thinks, as a system that car dealers or garages could use to warn customers than for police enforcement.
In fact, it's the crossover from advice about speeding to enforcement of speed limits that defeats most technologies, because they can't meet the multiple requirements of providing evidence that will stand up in court, and of providing sufficient warning to motorists.
Astucia's cameras haven't been tested to see whether they would produce evidence that would stand up in court, because they don't -- and probably can't, without a change in the law -- meet the requirements of visibility.
Asked about the possibility of the tiny cameras being used for speed limit enforcement, a Department for Transport spokesman snapped: "Not a chance. They don't meet the requirements for enforcement cameras, which have to be visible from at least 60 yards."
Certainly the Government is sensitive about reaction to speed cameras -- a sensitivity that hasn't been helped recently by a critical, negative campaign in the News Of The World.
In December 2001, mounting public annoyance over the suggestion that cameras were only being introduced to raise money through fines led to new rules about the cameras' visibility.
Introducing those rules, which mandated bright-yellow covers as well as the visibility requirement, the then Transport Minister John Spellar said: "Cameras are there to save lives at places where there is a history of speed-related accidents. They are not there as a means of raising money." Making them more visible was intended to "ensure motorists are not caught by surprise".
Yet despite tabloid campaigns, it seems that making the cameras so visible is helping the Government to win the argument among the wider public.
The lobby group Transport 2000 points to a number of surveys that indicate that people actually like speed cameras; the most recent being a 2003 study by researchers at Napier University which found that 75 per cent of drivers thought them "a good thing". Even the 2003 Used Car Market Report found a 62 per cent satisfaction rating for speed cameras.
And the reality is that speed is the biggest factor in road crashes, implicated in one-third of the 3,400 annual deaths. When speed reduction measures such as cameras or traffic calming are used, deaths can fall by 60 per cent, and casualties by 50 per cent.
The Department of Transport says that the 3,500 fixed cameras around the UK, and more than 2,000 sites where mobile cameras can be used, have led to a 35 per cent fall in deaths and serious injuries.
For Mr Dicks, prevention has to be better than cure. "I spent 10 years in the Fire Service. I attended every case where we had to cut people out of cars. But we can save a lot more lives with this. Anything that improves road safety has to be good."
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Now if they used this technology to enforce the distance between cars and prevent tailgating, that would be a safety improvement.
Imagine these things linked to an enhanced m-way matrix system. First infringement on a given motorway journey, your number plate flashes up on the matrix with "keep your distance", second infringement warns of imposition of points if distance not increased, third and you get a slap on the licence.
Of course there's one big flaw with this. How do you persuade the pfd in the outside lane to move over when there's nothing on the inside if you can't drive 6" from his bumper with your lights on main beam? Unless the system monitored traffic location within lanes and instructed miscreants to "keep left" on the same basis.
Ooooh, motoring nirvana as defined by life president mad Tony. Scary thing is, it's probably already in development.
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This technology is potentially fantastic - a real life saver. If EVERY catseye was replaced by one of them, then every speed limit could be enforced properly and rigorously.
I'm serious, for once, btw.
Speed limits could be set in the knowledge that they would be obeyed, not set [x]mph too slow because "everyone will ignore them". Danager spots could be flagged up in advance allowing us to take account of them. Persistently aggressive drivers and tailgaters would be highlighted. Untaxed/unregistered/uninsured cars could be located to a few metres within minutes and the nearest plod car alerted.
All we need is a government with an intelligent approach to design, installation and operation. One with a good track record of major IT projects.
Anyone know how to design one of those?
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Wouldn't the cost be prohibitive? I know technology is getting cheaper and cheaper, but the installation and maintenance costs would be vast.
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I thought GPS would be suitable for this.
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Say half of them weren't working. So, on average, they're now 6 feet apart instead of 3. I can cope with that.
How much do cameras cost? And lovely red tarmac and chicanes and roadside signs and bollards and nice white gates and so on? And what would happen to my insurance premium if I could show a clean record despite cameras every 6 feet? And how much would I pay to get the tailgaters/uninsured etc off the road and stop 80-90% of all accidents?
I agree it seems frighteningly expensive but it's not open & shut that it would cost too much.
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It will take a brave government to go down this route (so that's this lot out of the equation) as to gain broad public approval they will have to admit that the trunk road and Mway network in this country is woefully inadequate and simply won't get any better. That way they can "sell" the system as the only way to maximise road capacity and improve journey times.
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Rigidly enforcing speed limits might increase road capacity but I doubt very much whether it will improve journey times.
Also a relatively short term fix - car ownership is still on the increase, so once the new system reaches capacity you've got no room at all for expansion.
About time the major motorways were widened to 5/6 lanes, this will undoubtedly cause local capacity problems but you've got to make a start somewhere.
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Malcolm - as I have said before, speed has an odd relation to road capacity. Assuming for argument that all cars obey 2-second spacing (or 1.5 or any other number), that means 30 (or 40 etc) cars per minute (1800 per hour) per lane, whatever the speed. But the faster they travel, the fewer there can be per mile of road, which is why the variable limits on M25 can be made to work, partly by reducing the pulses that develop when drivers brake unexpectedly.
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I quote "They have the capacity to measure a car's speed but details would be used to slow down traffic THUS IMPROVING ROAD SAFETY"
Kev,
You appear to be taking this quote totally out of context. Totally. Previous paragraph in same article is:
"This trial is aimed at improving safety by detecting slow and queuing traffic. Flashing studs in the road will warn approaching drivers about potential incidents."
Make any more sense? Slowing traffic down that might be about to round a bend into the back of a queue not a good idea?
V
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Setting the issue of cameras in road studs to one side.
A trial of road studs which change colour according to certain circumstances is about to commence. Details as far as I know follow.
Placed at light controlled junctions. Placed along the stop line and lane / carriageway separation lines.
Lights @ green road studs switched off.
Lights change colour road studs follow suit and flash 2 x per second.
Lights @ amber studs = amber
Lights @ red studs = red
Studs have own power source so still operate if lights are out.
Don't know where this will be trialled yet but if / when I find out will let you know.
FiF personal opinion follows.
Not sure about this as I suggest this has not been thought through fully.
Someone seems to have forgotten that some of us, and most of the Backroom I hope, actually understand the current system of coloured road studs. Red, amber and green studs have specific meaning in my book.
I can see confusion if the lights are round a bend yet the studs leading up to the junction are visible. Also in poor visibility.
I know here's a novel idea, why don't we get drivers to understand and obey existing rules and drive such they can stop in the distance they can see to be clear.
FiF
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the recently re-surfaced A12 Witham by-pass in Essex is awash with these things..
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There's an interesting article on The Register about intelligent road studs. See www.theregister.co.uk/2004/04/22/transport_tech/
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Kev,
"Slow traffic does not equal safe traffic! "
I would suggest that, all other thngs being equal, slower traffic DOES equal safer traffic - especially if there's a stationary queue just round the next bend.....
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Stationary queue round the next bend? On a motorway [the M8?].
Yes by all means use these fancy things on dangeour bits of road instead of cameras as people will probably respect them instead of feeling like it's a game of hide n seek. But on motorways? If you can't see the traffic slowing/stopped further up the road you shouldn't be on the road, you shouldn't need cat's eyes to tell you about thr queue 1/2mile up the road.
More observant traffic = safer traffic.
A kid hit at more or less any speed, aint gunna just get up and run away, but if the [observant] driver avoids the kid, the kid learns a lesson and need only change his pants.
The slow speed brigade seem to be saying how can we slow down cars so they hit people at a slower speed; whereas it should be how can we avoid hitting someone in thr first place?
Kev
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Kev, to be fair, the part of the M8 at Junction 6 is quite dangerous. Although its not a bend, its a steep uphill followed by a relatively steep downhill which then leads into a more "urban" area with quite a few slip roads on and off. So ,having travelled this many times, I don't think it would do any harm to flash or whatever to warn drivers of slowing traffic.
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the first set of road studs were installed just outside headcorn kent .The company is based in kings hill ind.est this is mainly r&d work.The tri colour units were being tryed in the USA when i left in 2002.THE speeding/traveling to close stud were meant to flash red in front of the car ( this is only a ruff guide to speed )
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Regarding cats-eyes and lack of in European countries. A chap I know was hosting a Norwegian friend, and drove him at night on a lonely country road. The Norwegian was very impressed and amused by the cats-eyes but commented that they wouldn't be much use in Norway under a foot of snow. Additionally, when the roads were cleared by snow ploughs they would be at risk.
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New cat's eye 'could trigger fit'
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/essex/6226285.stm
This problem has taken a long time to emerge or has it been ignored or is it the spacing of the cat's eyes?
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Well, the LED lights on all cars and most signs also flash at 50-100 times per second, they do this as you can overdrive the LED making it appear twice as bright, but really it is twice as bright but only on half the time. The newer LEDs used in these applications include a driver chip and heatsink on the base, the heatsink is for the chip (which regulates voltage and flashing).. Arrays of LEDs have one driver for many LEDs,
eg.
tinyurl.com/yxs38c
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So what about LED traffic lights/over head gantry signs/etc?
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Surely if a flickering can induce a fit (even driving between street lights on the motorway etc), someone shouldn't be driving anyway? Sounds harsh, but I wouldn't want to meet them on an a-road with both of us doing 60mph and no control on their part.
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I have a different theory.
It may not be the 100 times a second flashing of an individual LED that is the problem. This, by and large is imperceptible to the human eye.
The problem may be that when you have a series of flashing LEDs as you would in a line of road markings, the flashing is synchronized just so that the 100 times per second is reduced to something much less. The foreshortening effect of distance would make the flash appear to be from the same source.
I don't understand why the LEDs cannot be on all of the time in adverse weather or the dark. A flashing LED has to be brighter (and use more power) than one that is permanently on, but slightly dimmer.
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The driver is not fit to be on the road and her license should be revoked.
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Small point: wouldn't the risk be more to passengers in the car and not drivers?
IIRC you are allowed to travel in a car/bus with epilepsy!
Snide comments about "license[sic] should be revoked" doesn't help anyone who has foolishly decided to travel in someone else's car... ;)
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Dear Mr Burner of Oil.
Reference your comment:
Small point: wouldn't the risk be more to passengers in the car and not drivers?
IIRC you are allowed to travel in a car/bus with epilepsy!
Indeed one is allowed to travel in a bus or car even though one is pre disposed to bouts of epilepsy, however as passengers have not crashed cars, buses or trains then, with all due respect, I feel your comment is fatuous and without merit.
Snide comments about "license[sic] should be revoked" doesn't help anyone who has foolishly decided to travel in someone else's car... ;)
Let us examine how my statement could be defined as "snide" The driver suffers from
a medical condition, that by law, has to be notified to the DVLA. The regulations state that one has to have:
Been free from seizures completely for one year or
Only experienced sleep seizures for a period of at least three years and
The DVLA/DVLNI is satisfied that as a driver you are not likely to be a source of danger to the public
Clearly as the driver does not meet these criteria then her license should be revoked. It is not a snide comment, but simply a matter of fact. The cause of the seizure is not relevant.
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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The trigger to any attack is likely to be the stroboscopic effect (akin to the apparent slowing down of a spoked wheel when filmed) which will be a function of the flash rate, spacing, and speed of the observer. Probably if a ' mesh' of suitably spaced elements eg wire fence or similar is placed between the observer and source the effect will become more noticeable, although being 'noticeable' and having an effect are not necessarily linked, since the triggers for epilepsy are at very specific low frequency band.
IIRC the eye is much more sensitive to flicker at the limits of the visual field and it is possible that spacing of windsreen/A pillars are having an effect. I find that driving the convertible under a canopy of trees when the sun is directly above can under some certain conditions produce noticeable flicker effects from 'above' and wear a baseball cap for this reason.
Somebody who has a better understanding will come along soon.....
--
pmh (was peter)
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They use flashing LED cats eyes in Israel across pedestrian crossings. Very effective.
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It appears that only a small percentage of people with epilepsy suffer from photosensitivity (flickering) as a trigger but there are some unlikely sources of problems. Dont drive too close to the cyclist at the traffic lights! I wonder whether this applies to modern generation of LEDS in Brake lights?
I quote from
www.epilepsy.org.uk/info/photo_other.html
Bicycle lights (red light emitting diodes)
There have been cases where red flashing lights (used on the rear of bicycles) have triggered seizures in people with photosensitive epilepsy. This happened when the people were close to the lights as they were setting them up.
--
pmh (was peter)
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But some of these rear cycle lights are obviously flashing. I would challenge anyone to detect a single diode that flashes at 100 times per second as opposed to being permanatly 'on'. 100 times per second (or 100 Hz) is what some of the clever Philips TVs refresh at. Do epilepsy sufferers complain about these?
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LEDs have instant on/off response unlike LCD TVs. The problem with LEDS that are multiplexed (flashed) are they are much brighter in the on period than the off period, so when one of these move across your field of vision they leave a series of dots or dashes which persists much longer than a equivalent "constantly on" lamp. In short they leave blind areas on your retina for much longer. I also find I experience a strange (hypnotic) effect, when driving past these - in my peripheral vision at least - the multiplexing frequency can interact with the "shutter effect" of your side window ( the old wagon wheel in the movies) effect.
Although I think that use on dangerous bends, blackspots etc is generally good, I suspect that widespread use may actually see accident rates increase instead of decrease.
And I think LED brake lights are rubbish, for all the above reasons plus their instant on/off, in your face nature, their monochromatic colour, their inconsistant (particularly side on) optics, and a number of intense points opposed to a flat consistent surface luminosity.
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I always seem to find LED tail lights very harsh on my eyes, to me they seem to have a look to them that I can't quite describe but I guess it's the shimmering of the on/off driver. That said I find CRTs at 60Hz painful too but strangely enough I'm OK with fluorescent lighting.
Makes me wonder how LED headlamps will seem.
Steve.
---
Xantia HDi.
Buy a Citroen and get to know the local GSF staff better...
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Interesting topic.
Streetlamps also flash at 50Hz, if you're in a dark area and look at some distant streetlamps, then move your eyes around, you will notice instead of seeing the lights streak across your latent vision, they form a dotted line like - - - - - - -
Flashing LEDs are brighter and use less power, as the latent vision of the eye means you don't see the off period unless your eyes move. The advantage is that they can be given a higher voltage which makes them brighter but they won't be damaged as the junction cools during the off period.
Maybe these cat's eyes are not synched and produce a sort of mixed-up mexican wave effect.
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Don't know who got Percys money - what there was of it - but he had 13 siblings including the 'steps', and several cousins (which I have on good authority being married to one of the distant cousins!).
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A trial installation of LED cats eyes was carried out olast year just up the road from me (on the A327 about half a mile from J4A of the M3). They were on a bend, and continued about 100 yds either side of it.
They looked amazing when installed, but almost all of them had packed up within a few months. None work now.
Cheers
DP
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Its like some 1980s computer driving game going through the led catseyes.
First time I came accross them I thought eyes where dodgy lol
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