What Offence? - Cardew
The scenario:

Busy traffic light controlled crossroads in London. As no right turn permissible many cars turn left and then U turn thus achieving their objective of, effectively, turning right.

The more considerate of these motorists execute their U turn at the back of the queue waiting their turn at the traffic lights. However many attempt to U turn immediately and try to muscle their way into the queue. To achieve this they have to cross double white lines and a slight hump down the centre of the road(put there to prevent such a manoeuvre.) Not unnaturally most in queue resist the barging in and chaos results with junction grid locked by cars backing up behind offender.

I spoke to police about these offenders. Apparently they had prosecuted motorists for driving without due care and attention. However a motorist was found not guilty as he successfully argued that he carried out the manoeuvre deliberately i.e. WITH due care, and it was not dangerous, merely selfish. The police apparently now take no action.

With what offence could they be charged?
What Offence? - CM
crossing double white lines?

I seem to remember this was against the law and was myself pulled up by a very happy policeman about 15 years ago and being given 3 points and a fixed penalty.
What Offence? - Dwight Van Driver
I am having difficulty visualising this. Correct me if I am wrong.

You say a driver travelling 6am to 12 noon cannot turn to 3am because of a No Right Turn Order. To make this turn they travel 6am left to 9am then 180 degree to travel 9am - 3am. In doing so they do conform to the No Right Turn Order. No offence here, unless of course they do not enter 9am road.

But you say the cross roads are controlled by traffic lights so presumeably when green to 6 - 12 then red 9-3 so if they do a 180 then they fail to conform to a traffic signal?

You mention \'barging in\' Possible other offence of driving without reasonable consideration depending on the strength of the manouevre and the weight of the evidence.

Double continuous white line only applicable when travelling 6 -12 and turning straight off to 3 (or 12-6 and to 9) as the line will crossed or straddled.

What Offence? - Flat in Fifth

I interpreted Cardew's description as the double white lines in question being around the little "hump" in the middle of the road which heads away the lights in the 9 o'clock direction. ie ghost island surrounded by solid whites perchance.

In which case this area should not be entered except in emergency or to avoid an accident.

I would say definitely an offence. Unless the U turn takes place beyond the white lines and without "barging" in and carefully simply a case of making best possible progress.
What Offence? - Dwight Van Driver
Thanks FiF.... think I am now getting it.

DWL on 9am road at junction extending back with hump. So when they 6 into 9 then 180, unless they go back to the end of the queue they cross the DWL, in which case offence and collect 3 PP.

Maybe stretching it but to be looked at on case law - unneccessary obstruction.

What Offence? - Cardew
You now have the picture.

View of the police is that crossing a DWL in these circumstances would not lead to a successful prosecution attracting penalty points. Once a case had been before court and defence lawyer had obtained a successful outcome a precedent had been set and they could not pursue other cases with similar circumstances.(case law?)

I suspect most cases of crossing a DWL involve an overtaking manoeuvre and hence it is considered that there is an element of danger.

What Offence? - neil
Police are wrong. Magistrates courts do not set any precedent, crossing DWL's collects points - period. No danger required. If there's barging in and gridlock, its driving w/o due consideration for other road users... period. Same 'Sec.3 RTA' as drive w/o due care, and same penalties.

Give the police another poke. Can't see why they wouldn't want to deal... except that it may require a lot of time there if its an everyday occurrence. Amazing what a few conditional offers of FPN's for crossing DWL's would do though!
What Offence? - Sooty Tailpipes
Double white lines where the line nearest you is solid. This means you MUST NOT cross or straddle it unless it is safe and you need to enter adjoining premises or a side road. You may cross the line if necessary to pass a stationary vehicle, or overtake a pedal cycle, horse or road maintenance vehicle, if they are travelling at 10mph or less.
Laws RTA sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10 & 26

I suppose if they said they were ajoining premises but when they got there there were none, and the view was blocked by the queue of opposing traffic, they would be let off, and the POLICE know this so don't bother.
What Offence? - Cardew
"crossing DWL's collects points - period."

Are you saying that it is mandatory that the offence 'collects points?'If so I cannot see it.

Clearly the situation should be an offence with a common sense application of Section 3 of the RTA. But someone more famous than I said "the Law is an Ass"


What Offence? - Dwight Van Driver
Neil is right C...

Schedule 2 Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 - fail to conform to Traffic Sign - Endorsement Obligatory - 3 Points.

I should know - my one and only sin....so far.

What Offence? - pdc {P}
Have the Government thought of Double White Line cameras yet?
What Offence? - GJD
From a different point of view ...

Is there a good reason why turning right is prohibited? If lots of people want to turn right, there ought to be a good reason if you're not going to let them. If allowing a right turn causes fewer problems than prohibiting it, then it should be allowed. This does of course assume a proactive and constructive traffic authority.

I don't know the junction, so there may well be a valid reason for no right turn. In which case, enforcement of the law - now we've worked out what the law is ;-) - is the answer.

What Offence? - Dwight Van Driver

Still not understanding why Police don\'t stop the practice you describe by dishing out a few FPN\'s.

Again reviewing what you say:

Are the white lines either side of the hump in the road and
cross diagnonal lines between the two?

Go to www.tinyurl.com/b9kq (Traffic signs and General Directions 2002)

First part - Regulations.
Middle -details and description of signs
End -Directions.

the first part at Reg 26 tells you what the line mean.

Go half way through the Reg and pick out sign 1013 which should be down. Does this conform with what is on the road? If not then illegal.

FiF will have an interest in this:

Now go on to virtually the end -DirectionReg 48 and note that sign 1013 has to be accompanied by sign 1014 (left direction arrow). Is one present? From what is described doubtful because of the space required. If not then DWL is not legal as it is not in accordance with the Regs. so Plod can take no action.

What Offence? - Cardew
I am going abroad until the end of Nov and will not be in London until then. From what I recall the marking is as shown in 1013.1(b). eg diagonal lines. I am not aware of sign 1014.

Wading through Reg 26 you get this:

"6) Nothing in paragraph (2)(b) shall be taken to prohibit a vehicle from being driven across, or so as to straddle, the continuous line referred to in that paragraph, if it is safe to do so and if necessary to do so
(a) to enable the vehicle to enter, from the side of the road on which it is proceeding, land or premises adjacent to the length of road on which the line is placed, or another road joining that road;"

Could that be loose enough? Particularly the last 6 words.

What Offence? - Dwight Van Driver
No way.

The manouevre is virtually a U turn on the 9am road and in doing so crosses the DWL without going off the 9am road into another.

Why do I get the feeling that the arrow is missing?

Enjoy the trip abroad and don't worry about it.

What Offence? - Flat in Fifth

"Why do I get the feeling that the arrow is missing?"

Worth a bluey that you are correct. Unless perchance arrow is on the other side of the junction, ie the 3am road and they have utilised the bit of the regs which allows the white lines to be considered continuous if interrupted by a refuge or junction.

The regs also allow the arrow to be missing if the white line starts after the point where the road leaves a roundabout or a central reserve ends. So was there a central reserve in place or was it a traffic island? Been here before haven't we, but that's another thread, literally. DOH!

You do realise I'm going to be looking for these dam' arrows on every journey now don't you? Thus getting even more distracted away from the Mrs Fif discussion about vertical blinds! Sorry DVD the blame will be all yours if I order the wrong colour.


What Offence? - Dwight Van Driver
......I'll draw a line at that Fif


Value my car