MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - Dcoa93
Hi all,

I posted on here recently, about used cars to buy for a small ish budget of £5K. The replies were helpful which is great, it did leave a few questions in my mind and they are purely economical and largely based on petrol vs diesel on ‘older’ cars, typically 2010-14 depending on what brand or model I’ll get. They are all family hatchbacks, and the following are in the running: Ford Focus, VW Golf, Seat Leon, Kia C’eed, Hyundai i30, Mazda 3, Toyota Corolla. Obviously years and mileage vary plus specs available. I’ll focus on the Golf figures, as it’s been the leading candidate, but thinking about others now. I’m a new driver with limited car experience, so apologies if basic questions.

I should also add, I expect to drive at least 10000 miles a year, possibly up to 15,000. This is due to commuting 36 miles a day, between 3 and 5 days a week. That’s approx 9K at the top end, plus some personal miles. The commute is City briefly , A&B roads - no motorway miles. I doubt I will do much motorway driving generally, unless a weekend trip out.

I’ve been looking at running costs, which are very important to me, although driving it enjoyably is also important- I don’t want it to be underpowered.

Tax can vary between £0 and £170 between diesel and the petrol versions of the above. Whilst annoying to pay it is a known cost.

Insurance is broadly similar, maybe slightly higher for diesels -repairs cost more?

What I struggle to quantify is MPG, petrol vs diesel. I’ve used the real world MPG figures on HJ, but how can I ascertain how dramatic the differences will be? Comparing a 122TSI Golf vs the 140TDI, implies 43 vs 55MPG, so about £300 a year more for petrol over diesel (current prices)
. I assume this is increased by current fuel prices. What I am asking is therefore, how noticeable can the difference be? Is it true that a diesel needs a long run to get to those ‘top’ end MPG figure anyway? Aside from my commute, if most journeys are local, will I see these figures around town?

I should also note the extra costs that are of concern below.

Whilst traditionally diesels have cost more,for used cars this doesn’t seem to ring true. I see more diesels available in this limited market. I assume depreciation may be a bit higher, too when I do get rid of it.
Are the servicing costs higher on a diesel car? What about consumable items I assume they are the same either way ? There is also the dreaded DPF/DMF/EGR issues, or are they overrated?
I should add, not in a ULEZ zone.

What I am therefore asking is; where does MPG rank in the overall costs of ownership? Is a diesel as economical as they sound for MPG?
If you were in my shoes, would you go petrol or diesel.

Thanks
.

Edited by Declan Coates on 12/11/2021 at 16:58

MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - Andrew-T

All else being equal, I think you can expect to get 20 - 30% better (i.e.more) mpg from a diesel than the matching petrol. Downsides are [a] the engine takes several miles longer to warm up, which you may find a bind in winter, [b] several big cities don't like diesels any more, [c] they can be noisier than petrols, [d] they have depreciated faster recently because of the NO2 emission problem - which should mean you can get a bargain ... :-)

Servicing will depend on the model. A diesel should have oil changes more often than a petrol (and probably more often than the handbook suggests), but it doesn't need plugs, and its exhaust should last the life of the car. I have owned my present diesel for 13 very nearly faultless years and it should last for several more.

Some say that you should stick to petrol unless you do over 15K miles a year, tho just now the price difference is only 4-5p a litre. Also modern diesel engines have complexities (such as a particule filter) which can cause problems. I find that occasional doses of super-diesel keeps the engine happy.

MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - SLO76
Your £300 per annum figure is accurate considering 10,000 miles at 43mpg v 55mpg. However I can’t stress enough that this saving won’t cover the additional repair costs you’ll encounter with an older DPF equipped diesel. A single injector for example is around £250 (there’s 4 of them) a fuel pump is £700 plus, a DPF £600 plus, a clutch and DMF around £1200, EGR valve issues are common and costly too particularly on the Golf and Leon 1.6 TDi’s and again will rapidly burn holes in your wallet.

I understand the thinking here, it’s all numbers on a spreadsheet but take it from those of us who’ve spent years selling cars, reliability and ease of maintenance are far far more important than a few extra mpg when it comes to overall running costs and I’m not even factoring in the likely additional cost of the vehicle being off the road for repair.

Stick with petrol and forget that Golf unless you’ve another £10k to add to the pot.
MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - _

SLO,

Magnificently clear.

OP please note the words of wisdom.

MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - Dcoa93
This is extremely clear - thank you. I will stick to petrol. £300 is not a lot compared to expensive repairs as you’ve listed.

On the last point, what should I get instead?
Why would a £15K budget be the minimum for the Golf?

Edited by Declan Coates on 12/11/2021 at 21:23

MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - Big John
Why would a £15K budget be the minimum for the Golf?

I think that was if you really wanted the diesel Golf £5k probably just buys you a money pit wheras £15k would get you a much better newer car. Early implementations of a DPF should be avoided. Also you'd get a much better value car compared to any Golf. £5k in my eyes is a difficult budget - it's at the level where you can easily buy a lemon but it's still a lot of money to loose.

Re your original query re mpg comparison I did a similar thing in 2015 (pre dieselgate) when buying a nearly new Skoda Superb mkII. I used the HJ real mpg figures at the time which at the time were 41mpg for the 1.4 petrol and 52mpg for the 2.0 diesel - I ignored the 1.6 diesel as I hated the drive. I decided to buy the petrol as it was £thousands cheaper and drove way better than I expected and was so quiet compared to the diesel(especially around town) - the projected extra cost in fuel was more than offset by the extra cost of the car (probably not so relevant now post dieselgate)

The reality, actually was the 1.4tsi is way more economical than I expected. Day to day commuting and some around town driving averaged about 46mpg and it frequently betters 50mpg on a long run. This was only slightly worse than the diesel mkI Superb that preceded it.

The real issue you'll have is used car prices especially petrol are currently over inflated due to the chip shortage knock on and the ULEZ expansion in London and other cities where many relatively recent diesels now have a problem (Most 2015 and earlier are not euro 6).

Edited by Big John on 12/11/2021 at 22:42

MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - Terry W

Diesel is more dense and has greater energy value per litre than petrol by ~15-20%.

If they sold diesel by weight rather than volume, diesel would be around £1.70 per litre compared to petrol at £1.45.

No surprise that diesel gives a better mpg - fuel taxation policy is daft!

MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - SLO76
“On the last point, what should I get instead?
Why would a £15K budget be the minimum for the Golf?”

Ford Focus 1.6 petrol
Mazda 3 1.6/2.0 petrol
Honda Civic 1.4/1.8 VTEC petrol
Toyota Auris 1.33/1.6 petrol

£15k? Well, the Golf doesn’t have a good reputation for reliability. The early chain driven TSi petrols which are within your budget are miserably unreliable and the 1.6 diesels are a never-ending money-pit of warning lights and pain. £15k buys one young enough not to be a problem… yet. The later belt driven 1.4 TSI is a good engine however but you won’t find one outside of a scrap yard for £5k.

Edited by SLO76 on 12/11/2021 at 23:39

MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - Dcoa93
Again, very clear.
What about the 2.0 TDI’s?

I have heard the above about those engines too.

It’s a bit of a shame about the current market, might have been able to stretch to a MK7 (with the belt driven TSI engine).

Edited by Declan Coates on 13/11/2021 at 07:53

MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - SLO76
“Again, very clear.
What about the 2.0 TDI’s?”

A better engine but again for this money it’s going to be 10-12yrs old with 100k plus, right at the age/mileage where it’ll regularly be costing money where a 1.6 petrol Ford Focus for example will be several years younger with 20/30k less miles and it has a far better reputation for reliability.

The Golf also requires a costly timing belt and water pump change every 5yrs or 100k (the Focus is 10yrs or 125k and much cheaper) and you can bet that any you’ll be looking at will be well overdue. If there’s no receipt to prove it’s been done then have it carried out before driving it anywhere. Costs around £400. Timing belt fails and the engine is dust.

The Golf will also have been affected by the emissions recall which caused Merry mayhem will the EGR, DPF and fuelling system. VW offered a post “fix” two year warranty knowing this as cars which were recalled were almost all afflicted by issues afterwards. I recently sent two work colleagues suffering EGR issues to a local VW/Audi specialist who mapped out the EGR to (hopefully) get rid of the warning lights permanently - it’s worked to date with no adverse running issues. Cost £300 rather than the £650 he wanted to replace the awkward to get to EGR.
MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - pd

I am not as down on diesels as others.

My choice out of that lot would be a Focus 1.5 or 1.6 TDCi. Good to drive, does 50-60mpg all day long and costs about £1 a month to tax.

If you go VAG diesel then I'd agree go 2.0. as it doesn't use any more fuel Cambelt is due at 140k on them, at least on all the ones I've seen.

MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - SLO76

I am not as down on diesels as others.

My choice out of that lot would be a Focus 1.5 or 1.6 TDCi. Good to drive, does 50-60mpg all day long and costs about £1 a month to tax.

If you go VAG diesel then I'd agree go 2.0. as it doesn't use any more fuel Cambelt is due at 140k on them, at least on all the ones I've seen.

The 1.6 diesel in the Focus is known to be troublesome as it ages, earlier versions are notorious for turbo failure and at the money we’re talking about here you’re right at the stage where expensive problems are due. It’s known as the diesel of doom in the trade. The larger 2.0 PSA diesel is much better but less common in the focus. The 1.0 Ecoboost is extremely fragile and to be avoided at all costs as is the Powershift automated manual gearbox. The 1.6 petrol is however bulletproof and will do 45mpg easy enough. The timing belt interval you quote misses the time element, it’s officially 5yrs or 120k but is recommended at 5yrs or 80k by most. Whichever comes first. The reason why belt failure is such a common reason for engine failure is that people ignore them or get the time element and mileage mixed up. More often than not it is the tensioners that fail and shred the belt which destroys the engine in most cases. I wouldn’t recommend a diesel to anyone on such a tight budget, it is almost certainly a false economy and you’re almost guaranteed to suffer problems.

Edited by SLO76 on 13/11/2021 at 10:48

MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - Dcoa93

Thanks again, I have heard a lot about the common issues of modern diesels - it is somewhat off putting, as some of the repairs are very expensive and can make MPG differences look rather small.

Out of interest, on the older 1.4 TSI engines, would an example with a 'new' timing chain be a better 'bet' or is that irrelevant? I assume the engine itself generally is 'OK' it is just this common flaw? Whilst I like the look of the GT Spec cars, I am totally avoiding the 160HP petrol version in my searching/previous shopping around, as I have also heard this can be much worse. Its a shame because aesthetically, they are very nice cars.

Out of interest how much is a new timing chain/replacement? Parts & Labour, obviously. I have seen it quoted at £500 to £1500+ so wondered what was actually correct. I guess it depends on damage done to the engine/if any?

I have looked at Ford Focuses (1.6 Petrol) and there are some good examples in the same money as the VW Golf's above - is mileage as important as choosing a car that is deemed reliable/bulletproof? Would there be any concerns over say, a 100K mileage Ford Focus (1.6 Petrol)?

Any thoughts on petrol Kia C'eeds? I believe they are also chain driven, but it works on this car!

MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - SLO76
“ Out of interest, on the older 1.4 TSI engines, would an example with a 'new' timing chain be a better 'bet' or is that irrelevant? I assume the engine itself generally is 'OK' it is just this common flaw? Whilst I like the look of the GT Spec cars, I am totally avoiding the 160HP petrol version in my searching/previous shopping around, as I have also heard this can be much worse. Its a shame because aesthetically, they are very nice cars.”

It’s a flawed design, new chain or not I’d forget it. It is however your money to spend as you wish and if you absolutely must have a high spec Golf on your £5,000 budget then go for it, you’ll learn many a valuable lesson and the simple petrol engined (likely Japanese) car you buy to replace it once it has expired will be bought with reliability in mind.
MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - Andrew-T

I have heard a lot about the common issues of modern diesels - it is somewhat off putting, as some of the repairs are very expensive and can make MPG differences look rather small.

The trouble with studying failure stats is that it can cause intense risk aversion, which may then lead to spending several £K more to get a low-risk car. At your stated budget I fear you may need to take the plunge and use your skill and judgment looking for specimens with a good service history.

If the correct preventive maintenance has been followed, you have a good chance that the car in question will give you good service. You can compare the chances of expensive failure, but that happens to a minority of cars - most of them keep going if they have been looked after.

MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - Engineer Andy

Of of the major problems with buying a second-hand modern diesel-engined car is that its future longevity/reliability is as much dependent upon how it was used (especially the last owner) as it was maintained/serviced, and unless you personally know the last onwer very well and trust them implicitly, it is not easy to get any or an accurate picture of how the car was used.

What I mean from that is that diesels do not like repeated short trips from cold, which will likely lead to cumulative damage to several systems (like the DPF) as mentioned by SLO earlier.

The annual mileage isn't much of a guranatee as how it was driven - it could just as easily be made up of lots of short trips from cold as it could be from less, but longer ones where the DPF passively regenerated, nor will you know if the owner had a bad habit (assuming they knew at all what was going on) of stopping the car during an active DPF regen, which is very bad for the unit.

With petrol-engined cars (at least the standard configurede ones), up until very recently (and still for some) there are far less conplex bits to go wrong that are significantly affected by the usage pattern than for a diesel equivalent.

You pay less for one, at the expense of some mpg (more so for cars over 10 years old), likely around the 20% - 30% mark, but the fuel is on average cheaper and, as SLO said, the likelyhood of problems all other things being equal is lower and the consequences far less of a strain on the bank balance.

For petrol-engined cars, I'd tend to go for the proven examples SLO has given (I've onwed, for example, a 2005-built Mazda3 1.6 petrol from new with [thus far] no issues of note).

The KIA C'eed and sister car the Hyundai i30 are decent cars, though if I recall some did have some underbody corrosion issues, but then the Mazda for example does on some (earlier examples mainly, mine's fine) have some rust issues around the wheel arches. At this age, condition and a good full service history (preferably with proof, e.g. lots of dealership receipts, etc, not just a service book which can easily be faked).

The Mazda and Ford are the best handling wise and cheapest to buy, the Civic and Auris the most reliable/hardy but more costly to buy/service (at a main dealer), the Civic 1.8 the nippiest in 1.8 form. As I said, condition and history etc is the key here.

If a car has had few, preferably one owner from new who has kept all the receipts and presents a well-looked after car then that may be the one to go for - say a retiree who is buying a replacement (because they can rather then because the car is giving them problems) or giving up driving, perhaps.

Worth having a check done on the battery or getting it changed in case it has been terminally damaged by a lack of use over the past 18 months due to the lockdowns. Luckily replacing such batteries on older cars is less of an expense than newer ones which would have hybrid systems as well.

Sometimes these cars do end up as PXes on garage forcourts, and in normal times at least, dealers like to get rid of them asap without needing for it to go to auction. At the moment with all the new car (component) shortages, the second-hand market is very bouyant and thus what you'd get for your £5k is a good bit less (or older) than a couple of years ago. It may also take longer to find what you want due to the significantly increased demand for second-hand cars at the moment.

If you can, best to make sure that you know what you want buy (where possible) test driving some, getting to know the interior, driving position, etc. Not always easy for older second hand cars, especially at the moment.

It may mean some 'window shopping' - i.e. pretending to be a genuine buyer but are really interested - at first - to get a good perspective on what driving a particular model would be like - driving experience, comfort, etc. You can always say that you're checking several cars over a week or two to compare them - it's sort of the honest truth.

I would try and narrow it down to 2 or 3 models of car and then do as thorough checks/sit-in/test drive of them to see which is bast, then find the best but affordable examples you can, but don't just jump at something because there's not much in your area, at least not before checking its history and condition.

Edited by Engineer Andy on 15/11/2021 at 17:29

MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - pd

It isn't know as the diesel of doom. The old 16v 1.6 PSA/Ford units certainly gave some issues if not serviced well but the 8v and subsequent versions found in the Mk3 Focus onwards have proven to be a tough old engine.

VAG don't actually state any official time element on the cambelt change although oddly VW say 140k miles and Audi 133k miles for basically the same engine and it was that engine being discussed.

I'd agree avoid the Powershift and the 1.0 has had reports of issues (mainly failed coolant pipes) and wouldn't be my choice (even if it is the nicest of all to drive).

The Mk 3 Focus is an all round decent car. The door seals always fall off and they can be tough on engine mounts for some reason but whether a 1.6 petrol or 1.6 diesel they are usually OK.

MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - SLO76
“ It isn't know as the diesel of doom.”

It is according to every mechanic I know. Yes, the earlier 16v version was far worse but even the later 8v versions are regarded as soft engines by the trade and the taxi trade. I know many cases of engine failure on these and I simply won’t recommend one beyond the later 1.5 and even at that I wouldn’t advise keeping it beyond 80,000 miles.
MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - SLO76
“ VAG don't actually state any official time element on the cambelt change”

Wrong.


“We recommend changing your cambelt once every four years for cars registered before September 2009, and every five years for cars registered after. If you reach the recommended mileage limit before 4 or 5 years, you may need to change the cambelt sooner. For more information, contact your local retailer.”

VW UK

www.volkswagen.co.uk/en/need-help/need-help-faqs/c...l

Edited by SLO76 on 13/11/2021 at 17:05

MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - SLO76
Declan, where roughly do you live in the UK? Give me an idea of a search area and I’ll take a look at worthy options nearby. We could give you recommendations all day long but it’s not much use if you can’t find one for sale. Condition is more important than make and model when shopping on a tight budget, I’d sooner have a tidy, well kept Fiat than a neglected Toyota for example, though you can remove a great deal of risk by keeping things as simple as possible mechanically. Give me a region to search and I’ll go online car shopping.
MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - Dcoa93

Hello - that would be very helpful actually - it would certainly give me a better idea. The budget is 5K, but would be quite happy if it was less (given its a first car). Quite happy to spend at least 4K though, I think going too cheap bring other issues into play, plus I have 2 kids so I want it to be safe.

I live in the York/Harrogate/Leeds area, if you want a post code to search from - HG50AD should do the trick :)

Should add, will need to be 5 door, some creature comforts would be nice.

Edited by Declan Coates on 13/11/2021 at 21:00

MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - Dcoa93

Here is a few Mazda 3's I have found, they are below the overall budget (albeit they are a bit 'older' cars), though I don't necessarily think that is a bad thing. Not the biggest fan of the interiors on Mazda's but they seem decently specced for the trim and seem good value?

www.motors.co.uk/car-61465493/?i=16&m=sr

www.motors.co.uk/car-61209076/?i=0&m=srf

www.germanmotorsleeds.co.uk/used-mazda-3-leeds-wes...8

I guess price wise I benefit as they aren't not as 'fashionable' as a VW Golf?

Edited by Declan Coates on 13/11/2021 at 21:34

MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - SLO76
The Mazda 3 is a great option here. They’re great to drive, cheap to buy and the chain driven 1.6 petrol has no real vices. The first and last examples are worth a look but the grey 11 plate has had poorly repaired front end accident damage which can be seen from the way the front bumper is sitting and the bonnet shut line. It may be worth viewing as minor damage isn’t a disaster but I’d probably leave it.

I did find a very clean looking private sale not far away. I like a private buy as you get to meet the last owner face to face at their address rather than listening to a salesman’s lies. There’s no comeback or warranty but you’ve more room to negotiate and this is where the real gems are to be found and guarantees on older sub £5k cars tend to be poor anyway with very limited claims limits and loads of exclusions in the small print.

www.gumtree.com/p/cars-vans-motorbikes/mazda-3-gli...l


These are good used family cars. Very practical, good to drive and mechanically very robust. No mention of service history in the advert so you’d have to ask if it has a full record, if not or very near to full then leave it.

www.gumtree.com/p/cars-vans-motorbikes/ford-c-max-...l


Not exactly fashionable but these are reliable and this one is barely run in. Mostly owned by the elderly so they don’t get abused which is obviously a positive when buying used.

www.gumtree.com/p/cars-vans-motorbikes/suzuki-sx4-...l

Another low miler with a reputation for reliability. Parts can be pricey though.

www.gumtree.com/p/cars-vans-motorbikes/mitsubishi-...l

Edited by SLO76 on 14/11/2021 at 00:06

MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - Dcoa93

Hi SLO76,

Apologies for the delay getting back to you on the recommendations - thank you again for doing some online car shopping for me! :)

Some nice ones in there, particularly the Mazda in Manchester - looks a solid example.

One thing I don't really fully understand with any purchase, is how do I see the red flags that should make me walk away. If viewing, what am I looking at, whether its a Seat Leon, a Kia C'eed or a Mazda 3? How do I spot evidence of a shunt, etc (other than the real obvious ones such as panelling).

I have also heard you can get the AA to have a look, but that is £199 I think. Not too bad, but if I don't proceed, that is still £199.

Are there any other models that spring to mind as fitting my requirements?

Also, as a general question again - at what point do you think these older diesels have a place? What sort of mileage is required, or would you just not get one at all? This applies to the older questions on VW, but also any car - are there any new diesels you would trust? Generally looking at cars between 2009 and 2013/4 due to budget.

MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - SLO76
Here’s what I spotted at local dealers.

This looks quite fresh but no mention of service history. With a Mazda of this age however there’s no service book, it’s online so if the last owner hasn’t kept the receipts call your local Mazda dealer to see if they can access the online history.

www.gumtree.com/p/cars-vans-motorbikes/2012-mazda-...l


Ford Focus with the right engine and apparently a full history.


www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202110078233913

This sounds very promising. Older model but one owner, main dealer part-exchange (means they liked it enough to buy another one) a full history and a recent timing belt change. Below budget too. View this as soon as you can. Rust is the only fear so get a good look underneath.



www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202106254240512

Ah, cancel the above. Just checked its Mot history and the rot is well into it sadly. Be the reason it was traded in but then it could’ve been the main dealer who did it and they can be overly strict. No mention of rot on the latest Mot but again depends on who did it. Worth a look but take someone knowledgeable with you and you need to get it up on a ramp. The dealer should be happy to allow this.


One owner car again. Means it was good to them.



www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/20211110942014


Looks fresh.



www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202110228773481


One owner and good spec. 1.4 VTEC goes ok and is good on fuel.




www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202110228796955










Edited by SLO76 on 14/11/2021 at 00:41

MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - thunderbird

You don't need to drive a diesel car these days to get good mpg. Take our trip today. Garden centre and back, about a 40 mile round trip. The accurate dash display in the 2018 Fabia 1.0 TSi 110 showed 58 mpg, a figure I would have struggled to beat in a Golf TDi90 back in the 90's. The Fabia may seem to many to be a small car but dimensionally its virtually identical to that 96 Golf and is way quicker despite weighing far more.

But I accept that not all cars are equal. Our 2018 Nissan Pulsar 1.6 DIG-T would have struggled to better 35 mpg on the same trip. Its probably on its way soon, a Hyundai Ionic Hybrid looks to fit the bill perfectly, neighbours wife has one, very smart, but I suspect it will be no better than the Fabia.

MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - Andrew-T

I accept that not all cars are equal. Our 2018 Nissan Pulsar 1.6 DIG-T would have struggled to better 35 mpg on the same trip. Its probably on its way soon, a Hyundai Ionic Hybrid looks to fit the bill perfectly, neighbours wife has one, very smart, but I suspect it will be no better than the Fabia.

By way of comparison with more elderly cars, my Pug 207 diesel 1.6 has averaged just above 60mpg over the 12 years I have owned it, while my 1994 306 petrol 1.6 has managed 43mpg over the last 2500 miles. That engine is one of the earlier injection ones, not long after the manual choke disappeared from dashboards :-)

MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - badbusdriver

You don't need to drive a diesel car these days to get good mpg. Take our trip today. Garden centre and back, about a 40 mile round trip. The accurate dash display in the 2018 Fabia 1.0 TSi 110 showed 58 mpg, a figure I would have struggled to beat in a Golf TDi90 back in the 90's. The Fabia may seem to many to be a small car but dimensionally its virtually identical to that 96 Golf and is way quicker despite weighing far more.

While working at a VW dealer in the early noughties, I used a MK4 Golf GT TDI (this was the 110bhp, pre-'PD', 1.9 unit) to pick up a colleague dropping off a customers car about 25 miles away. It was a fine day and we were in no hurry to get back, so I reset the trip computer before I left to see what mpg it would do. I was deliberately driving with economy in mind but not being silly about it and the result when we got back (according to the trip computer) was 74mpg.

Also, the kerb weight of a MK3 Golf 1.9TDI is over 100kg more than a 2018 Fabia 1.0TSI.

MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - Dcoa93

That is interesting information above.

What I find hard to understand is the manufacturers MPG figures, I have just used honest johns real world MPG in my calculations, generally.

Is there a way to know the most fuel efficient petrol cars? I have tended to find that the family hatchbacks have all been around 40-50MPG as petrol. This is a bit lower than supermini's - I assume due to added weight/engine having to work harder as a result.

MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - thunderbird

Is there a way to know the most fuel efficient petrol cars? I have tended to find that the family hatchbacks have all been around 40-50MPG as petrol.

Think you are way off the truth there if its old school technology you are discussing. The patrol "family" hatches we have owned in the past have averaged in the mid 30's during our ownership which has been for normally about 6 years. Even the far more efficient turbo diesels diesels we have owned have only manage the mid to high 40's in the same use. Obviously they both do more on longer runs.

Petrol "superminis" we have owned have achieved the low to mid 40's but on longer runs unlike the "family cars" they have done little more.

These are all calculated on my spreadsheet and not taken from the dash display which is way off in many cases.

The Fabia is without doubt the best car (petrol and diesel) for mpg we have owned so far. Its averaged 50 mpg so far but due to the lockdowns we have done fewer miles and few long runs. In the same use as previous cars I would guess that it would be in the low to mid 50's average easily beating the legendary Golf TDi 90.

But many would not think of the Fabia as a "family" hatch but in reality its the same size for passengers and boot space as a Mk 3 Golf, cars have grown.

I have read posters on here saying that modern turbo petrols in larger cars can achieve brilliant performance and economy and having owned the Fabia I would not dispute that. The 1.4 TSi in the VAG range of cars seems about the best from memory.

But personally I do not get too bothered with mpg providing the car is comfortable and reliable. The difference between 33 mpg and 45 mpg over 10,000 miles at todays fuel prices is still under £500. Insurance, VED, servicing, tyres etc cost more than that and if its a newer car take depreciation into account and that £500 a year is peanuts.

MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - Andrew-T

<< These are all calculated on my spreadsheet and not taken from the dash display which is way off in many cases.

I prefer to draw a graph, which is how I arrived at the figures for my Pugs above. In fact the readout from the 207 is pretty accurate.

<< The difference between 33 mpg and 45 mpg over 10,000 miles at today's fuel prices is still under £500. >>

No doubt true, but while COP26 is still in the news we should also be factoring in our CO2 footprints. Fuel can only be burnt once, so using less makes sense for that reason alone.

MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - Andrew-T

Is there a way to know the most fuel efficient petrol cars?

Basically the lighter the car and the smaller the engine capacity, the better the fuel consumption - as wind-tunnel testing optimised car shapes long ago. After that it comes down to how you drive the car, and whether it is used more for long runs or short trips.

MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - badbusdriver

That is interesting information above.

What I find hard to understand is the manufacturers MPG figures, I have just used honest johns real world MPG in my calculations, generally.

Is there a way to know the most fuel efficient petrol cars? I have tended to find that the family hatchbacks have all been around 40-50MPG as petrol. This is a bit lower than supermini's - I assume due to added weight/engine having to work harder as a result.

Using the real world mpg figures on this website can be interesting to look at, but maybe not a good idea to put much faith in them. In order for them to be properly valid, you'd need to know how and where the car is driven.

What Car's real world mpg figures are much more representative, at least as far as the difference between one car and another as the cars are tested under identical conditions.

I tend to take the opinion that all cars within a given size category using engines of a similar size, power output and torque figure are going to give broadly the same mpg (if driven in the same manner) regardless of manufacturers figures. There may be small differences due to one car being heavier or another having lower gearing, but those differences are going to be so small they are hardly worth consideration.

MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - Dcoa93

Do you have a link to WhatCar's figures, out of interest?

I did have a quick look, but couldn't see any list/able to find specific models.

MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - Engineer Andy

You don't need to drive a diesel car these days to get good mpg. Take our trip today. Garden centre and back, about a 40 mile round trip. The accurate dash display in the 2018 Fabia 1.0 TSi 110 showed 58 mpg, a figure I would have struggled to beat in a Golf TDi90 back in the 90's. The Fabia may seem to many to be a small car but dimensionally its virtually identical to that 96 Golf and is way quicker despite weighing far more.

But I accept that not all cars are equal. Our 2018 Nissan Pulsar 1.6 DIG-T would have struggled to better 35 mpg on the same trip. Its probably on its way soon, a Hyundai Ionic Hybrid looks to fit the bill perfectly, neighbours wife has one, very smart, but I suspect it will be no better than the Fabia.

To be fair, the Pulsar with that engine is far more powerful than the Fabia's 1.0T, so 35mpg ain't that bad, all in all. Does it get anywhere near the 7.8sec 0-60 time in real world driving? Quite decent performance on paper for what was considered to be a 'meh' car by journos.

MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - thunderbird

You don't need to drive a diesel car these days to get good mpg. Take our trip today. Garden centre and back, about a 40 mile round trip. The accurate dash display in the 2018 Fabia 1.0 TSi 110 showed 58 mpg, a figure I would have struggled to beat in a Golf TDi90 back in the 90's. The Fabia may seem to many to be a small car but dimensionally its virtually identical to that 96 Golf and is way quicker despite weighing far more.

But I accept that not all cars are equal. Our 2018 Nissan Pulsar 1.6 DIG-T would have struggled to better 35 mpg on the same trip. Its probably on its way soon, a Hyundai Ionic Hybrid looks to fit the bill perfectly, neighbours wife has one, very smart, but I suspect it will be no better than the Fabia.

To be fair, the Pulsar with that engine is far more powerful than the Fabia's 1.0T, so 35mpg ain't that bad, all in all. Does it get anywhere near the 7.8sec 0-60 time in real world driving? Quite decent performance on paper for what was considered to be a 'meh' car by journos.

The Pulsar gets down the road very well when you give it some right foot but so does the Fabia. No idea what a "meh" car is.

Simple fact is from A - B the Fabia is just as quick on public roads (as would any car you could buy today if you observed the limits). When we got the Pulsar what struck us was its overtaking ability with little need to use the gearbox especially compared to a N/A Focus petrol and Focus 1.6 TDCi. When we bought the Fabia about 18 months later we were amazed that despite having only a 1 litre turbo under the bonnet it felt just as lively as the Pulsar unless you were absolutely booting it.

My point was (probably not well put) the journey we did in the Fabia and managed 58 mpg the Pulsar would have managed about 35 mpg driven at the same speeds. If I had driven the Pulsar and used the extra power lord knows what mpg it would have done.

When we bought the Pulsar it was not the power that was the main attraction (it was a plus point to be honest), it was the package and price. Compared to the 1.8 petrol Focus with a lot less power 35 mpg is really good, that's about what the Focus would do and shows how things moved on in the 10 years between the cars.

The Pulsar will be going early next year, fingers crossed, but its a difficult act to follow. Nothing wrong with it and its been totally reliable but we only intended to keep it 3 years then Covid got in the way. Need to start drawing up a short list to make sure we get an order in for March delivery. Fancy a Hybrid but having tried a Corolla last year (supposedly the best of the bunch) we both came away with painful right ankles (don't wish to do an ORB) plus the Continuously Vocal Transmission whilst fine in town and on the motorway was a real pain in the Peak District. The Hyundai with a DCT box might be better, we need to try one.

However, when you look at prices another Skoda might be a better buy. Great deals on the Scala, a 1.5 TSi DSG might be better buy for us. Next car has to be an auto due to the Mrs arthritis getting worse.

Still fancy an XC40 and it drove really well but prices are stupid.

MPG Petrol & Diesel Figures/Car Economics - Big John

However, when you look at prices another Skoda might be a better buy. Great deals on the Scala, a 1.5 TSi DSG might be better buy for us. Next car has to be an auto due to the Mrs arthritis getting worse.

I've also half had my eye on the Scala - big issue for me though is primary functions (eg climate control) on the central touch screen