The Speed Camera Thread - - Volume 10 - Mark (RLBS)
For the continued discussion of all things pertaining to Speed Cameras.

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"The Speed Camera Thread - Volume 11"



Mark (RLBS)
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mailto:mark_moderator@honestjohn.co.uk
The Speed Camera Thread X - Nortones2
I liked the point about "unintended consequences". I think you can tell now who 1. is observant of speed cameras (if nothing else) and 2. has a Morpheus. They drive at whatever speed they wish in built up areas.

Marking the speed cameras in all circumstances seems to me to be a dereliction of duty. We now have the clear message that if there is no yellow peril in sight, and the Morrpheus isn't triggered, there is almost no chance of being caught. Observing overtakes into 30 limits etc and subsequent speeds, shows how many only comply when there is an overt threat. Better a mix of permanent marked, in high risk areas (salutary fine for ignoring the message/being blind?) with a mix of unmarked and mobile cameras to tackle the defiant!
The Speed Camera Thread X - Morris Ox
Here's a real Big Brother suggestion. Instead of speed cameras, why don't we have speed governors in cars?
The Speed Camera Thread X - Dave_TD
Because (and I know the IAM people will back me up on this) sometimes you need to exceed the limit to complete a manoeuvre (ie overtake) safely. And a whole host of other reasons besides!
The Speed Camera Thread X - smokie
which means it's probably a manoeuvre you shouldn't have got into in the first place...

That's the theory anyway...
The Speed Camera Thread X - smokie
Regarding the Morpheous points at the end of the last SC thread...

I have recently bought a Snooper Neo 6RS GPS camera locator (with radar and laser detector). £420 from eBay (new) + £100 to cover 1st 3 years subs. I'm don't care much for the radar/laser stuff, but the camera locator is a boon, even in areas with which I am familiar.

I have it set to bleep only if I am exceeding the speed limit for the imminent camera, and honestly, it rarely goes off around town. But it has alerted me that I am up to 33 in a 30 (Oh No, string him up, I hear you say) and might help avoid getting a penalty for a small margin of error.

You can program a speed into it, and when you hit that speed it gives you warning bleeps (set to 90 on mine, for motorway use!). In a series of SPECS cameras it will tell you which camera you are at, in the sequence. It is also directional in theat it will only warn you of cameras which threaten you - i.e. not ones which are fixed (as opposed to swivel) in the other direction.

I have found four cameras not in it's database which is a little worrying, but you can add them manually (one button push) to get your warnings, then upload them to the main database when you refresh your data.

Laser isn't much use as by the time you have responded to a ping you have already been caught. Radar actually isn't working right on my unit yet, but I am expecting false alarms from shops etc, and UK police use less radar than they used to anyway.

I think the downside is that if I ever get stopped for anything, although the device is not in any way illegal (in the UK), the police might be more inclined to "do me".
The Speed Camera Thread X - TrevP
"And a whole host of other reasons besides!"

And these "reasons" would be?


The Speed Camera Thread X - HF
A question that goes right against what most people believe on here - but how on earth can such a device be legal here?

Don't want to get into argument, but surely anyone that uses this is going to be quite regularly breaking the law, and wilfully getting away with it through the use of this device?
HF
The Speed Camera Thread X - Dave_TD
surely anyone that uses
this is going to be quite regularly breaking the law, and
wilfully getting away with it through the use of this device?


Yes, and by the same token surely all speed cameras are at the side of the road to make every car slow down, and not to raise money at all.
These detector devices are allowed to be sold on the strength of the assumption that if they tell you there's a camera up ahead you will know it must be a dangerous stretch of road and therefore you will exercise greater caution against potential risks.
The Speed Camera Thread X - smokie
HF - there is nothing illegal about GPS camera location, and radar and laser detection. Only laser jamming is illegal. Radar USED to be illegal but following a test case is now legal.

I can't completely disagree with you regarding breaking the law. Personally I try to drive within speed limits in restricted areas, but on motorways where traffic conditions permit, I tend to travel somewhat quicker than the limit. However, the device is much less useful on motorways as there are not many speed cameras. Around town, as I think I mentioned, it helps remind me to keep my speed down.

I know there will be many here who say that that indicates lack of concentration, but I wouldn't agree. Many people would, however, agree that in a modern car it is easy to be doing (say) 35 without really realising it - my car is barely ticking over when doing that in 5th.

So my purpose in buying the device was 1) to soak up some "windfall" money on yet another gadget but also 2) to assist in avoiding getting a fixed penalty for the sake of a small infringement.

And of course it doesn't help at all if you are caught by any of the other means at the disposal of the police.
The Speed Camera Thread X - Dave_TD
And these "reasons" would be?


The original question was:

Instead of speed cameras, why don't we have speed governors in cars?

The other reasons would be:

For a start, we can't even catch people who drive without tax, MoTs or insurance, so how are we supposed to enforce the fitment of speed governors?
Secondly, what happens if the governor malfunctions and cuts all power from a car carrying a family of four on a motorway, in heavy 70mph traffic, in the dark, in the rain?
Also, how could we be certain every car's speed governor was set to precisely the same speed, not even varying by half a mile an hour? You've all seen what happens when you get lots of lorries on a motorway with their limiters set to 90km/h, 90.2km/h, 89.7km/h etc.

If fitting speed governing devices to all cars was a feasible proposition, it would have been done a long time ago.
The Speed Camera Thread X - tone
I remember reading an article about governors somewhere, where in simulated trials, people just kept there foot to the floor because the car kept them travelling at a 'safe speed'. One person drove into the back of a queue of stationary traffic in fog without even touching the break because the was safer, its a good job it was only a simulator.

My opinion of some new 'driver aids' is that they'll work fine if you replace the drivers with robots. But until then your going to have to many people thinking that there car is intelligent enough to let them get away with anything
The Speed Camera Thread X - Thommo
On the legal front. Radar detectors were never illegal, the police assumed they were and prosecuted but the courts decided otherwise. In order to try and deem these devices illegal plod tried to use existing law that says you need permission to TRANSMIT.

GPS locators do not transmit, radar and laser detectors do not transmit (they receive), laser jammers do transmit.

The Speed Camera Thread X - Altea Ego
>plod tried to use existing law that says you need permission to TRANSMIT.

Dont want to appear pedantic, but that is not quite true. You need a license or permission to receive. In particular the percieved offence was "acting on information illegaly received" However the landmark court case hinged on the fact that no data or information was transmitted by radar speed detectors. Thats why it took such a long time to sort out and was such a grey area for a long time.

Still an offence to use detectors in some countries, France is one I think. The GPS position/data base type of devices are legal everywhere.
The Speed Camera Thread X - smokie
From the Speedtrap UK site... www.speed-trap.co.uk/Avoid_Home/Avoid_Gadgets.htm

"This act prohibits you listening in on emissions not intended for you, and acting on information contained therein. Up until March 1998, this was what the police would argue when they found you with a radar detector. They'd say that you were listening to police information and then acting on it to reduce your speed. However in a landmark case on March 30th 1998, High Court judge Lord Justice Brown threw out a claim by the police against a motorist who had been caught using a radar detector. The police claim, as usual, was that under the 1949 Act, the motorist was illegally using the device. The judge applied some common sense, and pointed out that radar actually contains no intelligible police information at all. As this was the case, the 1949 Act simply did not apply because the detector was merely picking up the presence of radar, not any information within it. This case set a precedent, making detector legal, and opening the floodgates to claimants who have been prosecuted for using radar detectors in the past.
If you want the technicalities of this ruling, it goes something like this (thanks to Steve Warren for the words):
In the past a few prosecutions have been brought by claiming the use of radar detectors was contrary to section 5(b)(i) of the Wireless Telegraphy Act 1949 as amended by section 3 of the Post Office Act 1969. However the Acts refer to the interception of wireless communications for the purpose of obtaining information as to the content, sender or addressee of any message. The Court concluded that the radar transmission was not communicating a 'message' and therefore equipment designed to detect the presence of the transmission could not decode any such message.
It was further stated that section 1(1) of the Act, which requires a licence for the reception of radio signals, has been superseded by the Wireless Telegraphy Apparatus (Receivers)(Exemption) Regulations (SI 1989 No123) which exempts radar detectors and similar equipment from the need for such licenses."

I have also heard radar detectors are illegal in France and that they will be confiscated if found. And the GPS database does not, to my knowledge, include France anyway (are they using speed cameras?)
The Speed Camera Thread X - smokie
btw the speedtraps page above also says "If you pass through a GATSO at over 154mph it seems to confuse it"....

Is that why many cars are limited at 149 - 154? :-)
The Speed Camera Thread X - terryb
The GPS position/data base type of devices are legal everywhere.

Try convincing a flic of that when he tells you to run over it!
:o)
Terry
The Speed Camera Thread X - Altea Ego
Oh forgot to add, if you use jammers i understand thats a whole new ball game, transmitting without a license is the least of your worries, the criminal offence of perverting the course of justice comes into to play there.
The Speed Camera Thread X - Armitage Shanks{P}
In the 'rain forest' of weekend papers there was an item, which I now can't find, which dealt with offences under the Wireless Telegraphy Act of 1984(?). The article was about the use unlincenced devices by mobile telephone companies to re-route calls and reduce costs and there was a throw away line saying that this could also apply to speed cameras or hand held 'guns' using radio waves. I take this to mean that such devices, used by the police or Local Authorities, must either have a licence issued under the Act, to be used legally, or must have a certificate saying they are exempt from a requirements to hold such a licence. As I recall this was the Act that was used to prosecute the owners of radar detectors. Would any of our legal members care to comment, please?
The Speed Camera Thread X - Podge
Sorry to go off at a tangent, but has anyone noticed that all the gatso cameras appear to have been realigned? Lancashire is knee deep in them and I noticed in the last few days that instead of pointing across the road at a slight angle they all appear to have been realigned so that they are now facing parallel to the road they are supposed to be monitoring. Am I imagining it or is there something going on?

Podge
Speeding ticket - Mutterer
No 2 daughter got a FP notice from Kent Plod for doing (they claim) 67 in a 50 limit on the A2 near Bloxley (East of the Medway bridge & up the hill).

She claims she kept within the limits at all times, mainly because of the volume of traffic.

We also cannot believe that she got from the Black Prince interchange (Bexley) to the camera in about 17 minutes ( this is a Hydunai Accent for heaven's sake!).

Is she within what few rights we have left to demand a copy of the evidence?

Sorry if this is an old topic, try a search on Speed cameras and see just how many answers you get.
Speeding ticket - Tom Shaw
If there is any doubt in her mind as to her guilt in this case she is perfectly entitled to ask for a copy of the photograph.

Worth doing as these devices and the people who adminster them are not infallable.
Speeding ticket - Armitage Shanks{P}
How was the information obtained which led to the issue of the notice? Was it from a GATSO or a hand held device? If the latter, was the officer operating it standing in the open wearing a fluorescent jacket? Was the notice issued within 14 days? See recent discussion on this site re sending the notice back with the driver named but without signing it. I think that they may not supply photos or calibration details unless you indicate that you will be appearing in court and pleading not guilty but I am not sure on this. It is a minefield but there is plenty of help out there. Slightly off thread I just read a Clarkson article in which he said that as 90% of all burglar alarms going off were false the police would no longer respond as they didn't have the manpower. Doesn't stop then standing by the road aiming devices at motorists, 90% of whom aren't speeding though does it? Minimal manpower, good clear up rate, looks good on the 'performance indicators' etc!
Speeding ticket - Mutterer
She claims she saw no flash, and she has been in cars that have been flashed, it is very noticable, does not remember seeing anything unusual, however traffic has heavy, especially over the Medway Bridge. The ticket does not specify a device, only that it was a camera, radar or other device.

There are several Accents in this area, all sold by the same dealer and all are white with reg. nos. in the range P9xx etc.

We are hoping for mistaken ID, fingers crossed.
Speeding ticket - Altea Ego
I sympathise with your plight, but surely you are deluding yourselves? Your daughter was on THAT road at about THAT time in THAT car? Get the photo sent, its your right
Speeding ticket - Mark (RLBS)
just to let you know that this thread will be moved to the Speed Camera thread.
Speeding ticket - Mutterer
Wrote to KP & got the photo today. It was taken from the front so I assume it was a mobile camera/radar thingy.

It is most certainly her so she had paid up today.

She has also taped the picture to her dashboard, not sure why.
Speeding ticket - smokie
Truvelo static cameras also take pics from the front. Saw some in Bedforshire the other day.
Speeding ticket - Obsolete
"Because (and I know the IAM people will back me up on this) sometimes you need to exceed the limit to complete a manoeuvre (ie overtake) safely. And a whole host of other reasons besides!"

Don't think this is true. I think the official position of such people is that you should never exceed the limit. I think they would say that if a manouevre means that you have to speed, then you should not carry out the manouevre.

However, being less than perfect, I tend to floor the accelerator if and when I do an overtake, on the grounds that it reduces the danger period. I am not too concerned about watching the speedo, preferring to watch the road ahead, behind, and to the sides. Of course I would never overtake like this in an area with lots of hazards e.g. residential.
Speeding ticket - chris2
middle lane of motorway going past a HGVs etc I always accelerate if safe to do so and then slow to the correct speed.

I've done this on several occasions with marked police cars in lane 3 watching and they've not done anything (yet). If I do get stopped then the reason will be the simple " I would rather have a gap in lane three into which I can move if the vehicle to my left pulls out into my lane" something that has happened on numerous occasions.

\'Mobile\' Speedtraps ie in a van ? - Mr Fox
The Crafty pink fluffy dice round here have got a white Peugeot Partner Van with no markings on it, but which contains a camera, they park up, one rear door open beside a busy dual carriageway (A61) which has a 40 limit, but which leads to the Bypass (70 limited section), and is downhill, naturally everyone is gaining speed. and Plod sits there all day coining in the money, what is on the statute book about these devices ?

I always blow my horn when I go past, as a mark of disrespect, but I really don\'t think most motorists know what is going off, judging by the speed they are going. . .

Marc
'Mobile' Speedtraps ie in a van ? - volvoman
The answer's simple MF - if all the people you say were driving by unaware of their speed, paid just a bit more attention to it the police wouldn't be sat in their van by the side of the road all day and would be free to do other, more important, things.

It's easy - if you don't want to get fined don't break the speed limit. If you don't know what the limit is, you should do and if you don't know what speed you're doing you should be paying more attention.

It amazes me how many people think speeding is ok but I wonder how many would stick to that view if one of their loved ones was mowed down by a speeder. Can't help thinking that in such circumstances those same people would be demanding the courts to throw the book at the offender and for speeding.
'Mobile' Speedtraps ie in a van ? - HF
V, for once, I'm with you 100% on that one.
HF
GATSO Once Again. Anyone Nicked? - rg
Folks,

I post this with trepidation. Please accept my apologies if there have been recent posts on this topic.

However, I would be interested to know if anyone has got nicked by a forward-facing GATSO in recent days.

See thread

www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?v=i&t=35...9

for "a fight in the playground" on this one.

I got flashed face-on inbound to Berwick from Edinburgh on the A1. No markings on the road as I recall. Hoax?

rg
GATSO Once Again. Anyone Nicked? - smokie
See tinyurl.com/b164 for details of different types of camera (scroll down the page). Note it faces the oncoming traffic, uses undersurface wires and needs no road markings.

A Google search on Truvelo and Berwick gave this page www.speedcamerasuk.com/database/NEN/NENAD.htm - probably not much use though.

Good Luck
Caught speeding, but how? - Phil P
I received a notice of intended prosecution yesterday from Dorset police for travelling at 71mph in a 60mph zone on the A35 nr Bridport.

The letter states that "this allegation is supported by photographic and/or videographic and/or radar evidence" however none is provided.

I'm pretty sure I wasn't flashed by a fixed speed camera, Gatso or otherwise, and can only guess there was a squad car hidden at the side of the road.

Basically though before I accept the £60 fine and 3 points I would like to know how they caught me and see the evidence.

Do I have the right to ask to see this without going to court?
Caught speeding, but how? - borasport20
there are many types of speed camera, and not all of them flash

check out HJ's recommended websites and look for the speed camera bible

Caught speeding, but how? - Dynamic Dave
This is another post that'll get moved to the speed camera thread later.
Caught speeding, but how? - Phil P
I am well aware of the various flavours of fixed speed camera and stick to my line that I was not caught by one of them.

This is not a question about speed cameras so please do not move it to that huge thread where it will be lost forever, I simply want to know where I stand getting hold of the evidence without actually going to court.

There is no photo or any other evidence provided with the letter.
Caught speeding, but how? - smokie
I'm with Phil, this doesn't belong in the SC thread. Though I'm sure I've read answers here before about asking for the evidence - a thorough search might yield something
Caught speeding, but how? - Mark (RLBS)
Though I'm sure I've read answers here before ....


Can you guess which thread you've read them in ?

Sorry, it will move to the Speed Camera thread. Although to help I won't do it until this evening.
Caught speeding, but how? - Altea Ego
Is this the declaration of "who was driving" form or the NIP?
Yes you can request the photo if there is one.

But I have to ask, were you bowling along on that road, at about that time, if so you have been nabbed bang to rights.
Caught speeding, but how? - Altea Ego
DD, I am with the rest of them, this is not a speed camera thread, its about a bloke asking about his specific NIP
Caught speeding, but how? - Dynamic Dave
OK, OK, it can stay here and everyone can post the same repetitive stuff that has been previously posted.

Mark however may have a different view to me though.

Update. He has. See above.
Caught speeding, but how? - Altea Ego
DD,
soon as it gets degenerates into the same old blah about cash cows, its not legal, and how do I cheat prosecution then move it by all means.

Caught speeding, but how? - roscopervis
I am in a very similar situation and I too would like help with this specifc issue. I have trawled through the speed camera threads and it is hard to pick out the information required.
Caught speeding, but how? - Phil P
Well sorry to cause so much ruckus but instead of this becoming a debate over where this thread belongs can someone provide a helpful answer to the question?

The letter I have received is the NIP.

Yes I was in the area and probably doing the speed indicated, but believe I have a right to see the evidence or so I would think before accepting the inevitable.
Caught speeding, but how? - jonesy127 {P}
Why don't you ask the author(s) of said NIP if they can provide evidence? Surely they need to sometimes when there's a dispute over who was driving the car at that time (SWMBO, etc.) ;-)
Caught speeding, but how? - Altea Ego
Have you not been asked to state who was driving the car?
Caught speeding, but how? - J Bonington Jagworth
Ask for evidence, both of the offence and that they calibrated the equipment. This will both put them on the spot and identify you as an awkward customer, to be put to the bottom of the pile.

Also, you will have to identify yourself as the driver - do this (it's a legal requirement), but do not sign the form (this is not a legal requirement, but renders the form inadmissible as evidence). That should do it.
Caught speeding, but how? - Altea Ego
Nice one JBJ, Bloke admits he was probably speeding, on that road, at that time and just wants to find out how he was done,
and you instantly push the thread into "how can we cheat the system mode"
Caught speeding, but how? - Dwight Van Driver
Philip P

Write to the address that sent you the NIP/Conditional Offer asking for clarification of the points you want and ask for a reply within 21 days. No better make it less than that 14 days as time has passed since you got the forms and you only have 28 days.

Now I specifically address the following to Midlife Crisis and/or Full Chat:

North Yorks did not and as far as I am aware still have not speed cameras. MC/FC may well serve in a Force which has an abundance of these devices. If so, because what PP raises often appears on this site, could either of you find an answer as to ACPO(Traffic)/Force policy in releasing the evidence and especially photographs. It seems to me that none exists and release on an ad hoc basis which I think is wrong.

I have some empathy with PP as if I was ever in his position I would want to know how and in these days of ever increasing cloned VRM's evidence of the Photograph etc. If it was a Court case then you are supplied with a Statement of Facts outling the evidence.

DVD
Caught speeding, but how? - Fullchat
DVD

On with the job straight away! Pity I did not have this yesterday as I have been working in the same building as the Fixed Penalty Process Unit.
Humberside does not have Gatso fixed sites but has of last week increased its mobile units from 2 to 6 with all the vehicles and dedicated officers to go with it. Extra funding has been provided by the local authority.
I do have some sympathy the author of this thread in that if in the same position I would also like to satisfy myself that it infact was me that had been recorded , particularly with the increase in use of cloned plates. However the other side of the coin is the integrity of the process and because of all the procedures in place it should be taken as read that it is a "fair cop". However the system has proved fallable and I can understand genuine doubts.
The Lancs website gives clear guidelines and alas I have searched the Humberside website with no success. I shall make the necessary inquiries for my own benefit as well a contributors.


Fullchat
Caught speeding, but how? - martint123
Fullchat - 6 ???, what happened to the much publicised 4.5 million quid and 64 mobiles??. No wonder I've not seen one yet.
ISTR that one of the local freebies from the council said the funding was from central coffers rather than East Yorks, Hull and North Lincs. ???

Martin
Caught speeding, but how? - Godfrey H {P}
It seems to me that cloned plates and procedural mix-ups are now so common that unless you remember being flashed by a Gatso you have just got to ask for the evidence. The more people that do this the better so that we can get more traffic cars back on the road and catch the real culprits, tail gating etc, rather than the easiest revenue earning culture we have at the moment.
Caught speeding, but how? - Flat in Fifth
Just one further question on this referring to the Lancs Police link.

In the situation where one does genuinely believe or categorically know that the vehicle is not yours, yet the vehicle details correspond, presumably VRN make and model, Lancs police require written evidence that your vehicle was somewhere else.

What would be considered as suitable written corroborating evidence? Any opinions from the team?

Obviously it would be handy to have, for example, a client statement Mr X visited us on date/time etc but what are the chances of that?

If the only evidence is for example the missus saying he was out digging the garden, or colleagues saying he was in the office, how much credence would that really have?

Just seems to me that the fabled golden thread running through British justice is in danger of getting somewhat tarnished.

Caught speeding, but how? - joe
Unfair comment. If we are to be caught, tried and convicted by a machine, we are entitled to know that the machine was working. This is not "cheating the system".
Caught speeding, but how? - J Bonington Jagworth
>you instantly push the thread into "how can we cheat the system mode"

And you would just pay up, I suppose? If the law is badly framed (and it is, because the ID business was rushed through when it was realised that it contravened the right to silence) it should be tested. That's what courts are for.
Caught speeding, but how? - Morris Ox
Nice one JBJ, Bloke admits he was probably speeding, on that
road, at that time and just wants to find out how
he was done,
and you instantly push the thread into "how can we cheat
the system mode"

All in the grand British tradition of jousting with officialdom, RF. Acid test of any law is how much respect people have for it, and while no can really argue with the logic behind speed limits the underlying belief that there's something sneaky and underhand about cameras has spawned a whole culture of avoidance.

Whether all speeders are Robin Hood is another matter.

Caught speeding, but how? - pdc {P}
Nice one JBJ, Bloke admits he was probably speeding, on that
road, at that time and just wants to find out how
he was done,
and you instantly push the thread into "how can we cheat
the system mode"


Cheat the system? Surely the law must act within the law to uphold the law?
Caught speeding, but how? - smokie
Phil - doesn't quite answer your question, but this link is to Lancs police policy on seeing your picture. presumably a similar policy to your locals.

www.lancashire.police.uk/s10.html
Caught speeding, but how? - Dwight Van Driver
DVD

Cheers smokie - seems we were working in tandem and you have the faster finger. Adds to my education.If this approach was adopted universally then it would help..

Presume you get the cash back if they find it is not you?????

DVD
Caught speeding, but how? - Dogbreath
I got photgraphed by a hand held (and legal)camera held by a policeman on a flyover over the M20. Apparently these new hand held camaras are very high quality. I asked for the picture and got a perfect picture of me and my car!
Caught speeding, but how? - Dan J
Question for you DVD which stems from smokie's website link.

"How was I detected [speeding]

*. Police officer's expert observation - in or outside of car."

Now forgive me if I am wrong here but I find that hard to believe. The site states the same applies for a red light breach. I accept that - you either did or did not drive through on a red light, but speeding?

Now if I am passing through a 40 at 65mph, it would be obvious that I was speeding to a lot of people but how could I be prosecuted as such? Surely not on the fact that someone "believes" I was speeding?

Sounds like different rules applying to motorists again. A burglar wouldn't end up arrested or jailed because a policeman "thought" he was burgling a house!

Interested in your comments...
Caught speeding, but how? - Dwight Van Driver
Dan J.

The offence of speeding, unlike the offence of failing to conform to a Traffic Sign, requires by law evidence of corroboration otherwise proceedings cannot be taken.

My days with follows/VASCAR/Hand Held went like this. Initial evidence that I saw a vehicle going at what appeared to be a speed in excess of the limit. Now comes the corroboration i.e. followed at a constant distance over so many tenths of a mile and saw the speed as recorded by the speedometer/Vascar time and distances gave average speed / Handheld recorded a speed of...

Whilst having no indepth knowledge of Gatso's etc I understand that that initially speed triggers the camera
and the photo with the lines provide the corroboration.

In the very old days, when FiF was a lad and Toad a dot of spawn - and thats going back a bit and still held to be good law, sufficient to get a conviction if two Plods stood side by side on a main road and both formed the opionion that a vehicle was speeding then you were banged to rights. Each officer providing corroboration to the other. We have, thankfully progressed since then and we still don't like it.

DVD
Caught speeding, but how? - Dan J
Cheers DVD. Makes a big difference having someone "in the know" on here to put us right...

I can quite imagine your job is frequently very challenging!
Caught speeding, but how? - smokie
"sufficient to get a conviction if two Plods stood side by side on a main road and both formed the opionion that a vehicle was speeding then you were banged to rights"

My last but one offence happened exactly like this. I was admittedly over the 100 on the M4 lane 3 and a police car was out of view in lane 1 - until I passed him. When they stopped me after a few miles I thought I was safe, as no measurement could have been taken.

However he offered me a fixed penalty and said the alternative would be a court appearance where it would be their word (he had a coleague in the car) against mine, and who did I think the court would believe?

So I accepted the FP, and, wondering if I'd been bluffed, spoke to a legal friend (I don't have illegal ones!!).After a small amount of research he said that the police were right - the opinion that you were speeding HAS to be corraborated by another officer though, one on his own was not enough. This was about 7 years ago I would estimate, but as I've just this second discovered my licence is missing (!) I can't confirm that!!
Caught speeding, but how? - Phil P
They're not my locals actually, I live in Surrey.

I was actually on my honeymoon...
Caught speeding, but how? - Phil P
Oh should have added that included with the NIP was the form to name the driver at the time of the alleged offence...
Caught speeding, but how? - J Bonington Jagworth
"I was actually on my honeymoon..."

No wonder you didn't spot them! :-)
Caught speeding, but how? - puntoo
So if you are innocent according to the website you still have to pay £6 to prove it. No mention of a refund if found innocent.(Essex Police at least provide a picture).

In other cases there may be no photographic evidence at all so they dont have any evidence of your speeding at all (apart from a hand held computer that may have mistaken your number plate or captured a cloned number plate).

There should be legislation that compeles the police to provide photographic evidence. They would then do away with posts such as these.

Caught speeding, but how? - pdc {P}
Yes you are entitled to see the evidence. I was stopped by an unmarked car on the M56 2 years ago and accepted that I was speeding. When the court summons arrived 6 months later I requested the video and was told it had been destroyed. The CPS bargained with me that they would go for 3 points & £60 if I went to court. When I got to court the prosecutor said that it was only because I was in court to admit the offence, that they could prosecute me due to the evidence being destroyed.

checkout www.pepipoo.com (I am case study 8 in the case studies), especially the bit about NIPs. Looks like there is a loophole in the law. It is law that you must state who was driving, but it is not law that you must sign the NIP. When it goes to court the NIP will be inadmissable as it has not been signed!
Caught speeding, but how? - pdc {P}
Whoop, I'm case 9, bot that it's that important!
New speed camera - graham sherlock
I'm trying to find a website where you can add the location of a new speed/traffic-calming camera that has been installed local to me. It's a particularly nasty one as it is virtually hidden by the roadside undergrowth. Yes, it's painted yellow but you see it at about 5 yards away.

For those that want to know, it is on the Norwich-bound side of the A140 at Stonham Parva. It's about 15-20 yards inside the 40 from 50 limit just before the Old Forge garage, so would have to be doing 40 at the start of the limit.

I do not condone speeding etc, blah, blah, but this is a absolute cash cow if ever I've seen one.

Apologies if this has been asked before..

Graham Sherlock
New speed camera - Dynamic Dave
This will get moved to the Speed camera thread Vol X later today.
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?f=2&t=11...4
New speed camera - peterb
I thought you couldn't be done for speeding within a very short distance of a limit reducing.
New speed camera - TrevP
peterb -

Is that like being slightly pregnant?

I think you've been talking to your mates down the pub again.
New speed camera - Ian (Cape Town)
Ha!
I was recently 'flashed' by a camera mounted on the back of a 100km/h limit sign, coming out of a 120 zone...
Fortunately I was passing somebody at the time, so didn't receive a pic through the post.
We do things a little differently here ...
New speed camera - smokie
Some police force websites publish their own informations about speed camera locations, and update with where mobile cameras will be during the week.

See for instance www.bbc.co.uk/essex/travel/speed_cameras.shtml or www.bbc.co.uk/essex/travel/speed_cameras.shtml

There is also a database you can update at www.speedcamerasuk.com/
New speed camera - TrevP
Some police force websites publish their own informations about speed camera locations

Indeed. As do some local radio stations.

Bit diificult to twist that into "they are only there to raise money".
New speed camera - Altea Ego
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/shropshire/3037753.stm

Vandals who attempted to cut down a £25,000 speed camera in Telford have been condemned as "morons" by a councillor.

Firefighters were called out to Bennetts Bank, Wellington, on Saturday night, after reports of sparks coming from the camera following an attempt to topple it with a power saw.
New speed camera - Fullchat
Right!

In respect of DVDs request I have today made the inquiry. The mobile units record a constant video whilst the are positioned on site. For those vehicles that exceed the limit and fall within the process band a still photograph is generated automatically. As a result of that photograph NIPs are generated. If someone wishes to see the photograph and/or video they may do so by presenting themselves at the Fixed Penalty Process Unit. If they are from out of Force the photograph/video can be sent to their nearest station or viewing. A telephone contact appointment is then made to view by the nearest station.
There is no charge to view and whoever is supervising the viewing is not encouraged to enter into any sort of discussion regarding the merits of the case unless of course there has clearly been some form of mistaken identity.
If calibration certificates etc wish to be viewed then its a court case. Quite frankly I like the Lancs idea of a small charge for the picture ( refundable of course depending on the outcome! ) as this seems to be administrativly much easier.
Another point of note is that whilst all this viewing is going on and if it is found to be mistaken identity the NIP clock can have elapsed allowing the true offender to have escaped!

Martin 123 - My mistake , mobile units centrally funded. Still only 6 vehicles though and working shifts including weekends!


Fullchat
New speed camera - Dwight Van Driver
Thanks FC. Adds to my education.

Seems as I suspected there is no common policy as to viewing the evidence. Something I consider Blunderbox (ACPO Traffic N Wales) should be addressing if he so pro s.c's.

As to NOIP re mistaken ID, surely the Forms would be sent to the Regd Owner to name and shame driver which is good service. If false and true offender traced then police acted with due diligence unless of course they made an upright phallus?

DVD
New speed camera - pdc {P}
It's wrong for them to charge for you to see the evidence. In any other prosecution you have the right to see the evidence against you at no charge.

It is a rule of law that any party (including the police) who wishes to rely on evidence at a Court hearing must disclose the content of that evidence, whether written statement, photographic evidence or other, to their opponent. In the case of evidence to be relied upon in respect of alleged breaches of the Road Traffic Offenders Act or Road Traffic Act such evidence must be disclosed not less than 7 days before the date of hearing.

Check out more here:

www.pepipoo.com/Disclosure.htm
New speed camera - Fullchat
There seems to be some confusion hear between taking part in the Extended Fixed Penalty procedure and electing to have the matter heard before a court.
The Extended Fixed Penaly Procedure was introduced to allow speedier processing of minor traffic offences thereby freeing up both Police and Court time. The bonus for the offender was generally a smaller fine (no costs!) and a standard 3 points.
The system as it stands at the minute generates an NIP/name the driver form and then the option (depending on the overall speed) of paying a FPT. Thats it pure and simple. U puts your hand up and U get it smacked.
The court system is a much slower process relying on NIPs, summonses and then a court listing and finally an appearence. If you wish to argue the credibility of the evidence then you go to court and you can have all the disclosure you want- statements, photos etc. etc. If the case is proved then you pay probably more than the FPT would have cost (including court costs!)

What you cannot do is have all the benefits of the latter in the former process. That is not an option. What the Police do is entertain certain genuine queries as they understand that the system is fallible and some people perhaps need a little reminder of what they were doing and where they were several days previously. Once they see the photos they go away satisfied that they are 'bang to rights'.This can prevent not guilty pleas and save much time. If it can be proved that the alledged offender was not infact the person on the photograph then it can be speedily remedied. Its a two way street.

As I see it there are 3 types of people. There are those that take their punishment. There are those that that despite being in the wrong will argue that black is white and do anything to defeat the system as it is a game and a battle to be won and finally there are those that are innocent. Unfortunately those in the second group make it extremely difficult for those in the latter. What sticks is that collectively everyone who trys to buck the system causes endless extra work. "Good" I hear some say. But just remember that resources are finite and that ultimately the greater publc are the losers.

Believe you me I am not a speed camera lover!




Fullchat
New speed camera - martint123
Fullchat - thanks for that - I was wondering about the 'overtime' question of weekends - answered.

I've yet to see one in Leconfield (my abode), but I note the 121 bus now passes through at 30 rather than it's usual xxxx..

Martin
New speed camera - roscopervis
Perhaps, but when they say they will be on a certain road monitoring, yet they are on a minor road that looks onto the certain road JUST as a 60mph changes to a 30mph zone, and none of the drivers can see the van as it is hidden behind a blind corner by bushes and a house or the crest of the hill (depending on direction), and only appear on random days then I still think its for the money. On the days when they are actually on the road in question fully visible by drivers travelling in both directions well within the 30 mph speed limit then that is fine.
New speed camera - roscopervis
I am not sure why my previous post is all the way down here!

In response, I have received a NIP from a trap that was situated on a bend on which the speed limit drops from a 60 mph national speed limit to a 30 mph. The trap is situated of on a single lane track that overlooks the bend but is only visible for about 50 metres from the main road in the direction of the 30 mph to 60 mph change due to the hill crest. It is totally invisible from the main road doing 60 ? 30 mph as the single lane track is forking off to the right as the main road bends left and the trap?s situation is obscured by hedges and a house. It seems that as a money making site this takes some beating as everybody coasts to slow down to the 30 mph limit, so at the trap I have witnessed that most cars go through it in excess of 45 mph.

I must emphasise that the trap is almost immediately, less than 50m after the 30mph limit is in operation and is obscured from view. It is on the A476 Cross Hands to Llanelli road just outside Llannon. The site, in my opinion, is totally unrelated to road safety.

There is often another trap on the same stretch of road but this is actually on the main road, well into the 30 mph speed limit and visible for a good distance either side. As a deterrent and a site that is concerned with road safety, it works well.

I am wondering whether there are guidelines set that must be followed with regard to the siting of mobile speed traps and, if so, where I could view them.
Also, does anybody think I have a case or should I just cough up?
New speed camera - TrevP
"less than 50m after the 30mph limit is in operation"

Ah yes, the old "30 does not start at the sign, but at a distance past the sign" ploy?

(said distance of my choosing, of course)
New speed camera - Flat in Fifth
Not sure I have got a total picture of the layout but let me get this right.

Speed trap was situated in the end of a track off a 30 mph limit?

This is in a place where visibility is obscured by hedge, house, a bend and a brow? Thus making, you say, the trap totally invisible, perhaps rather like a vehicle about to emerge from the said track.

Yet the straight bit of road further down is the real safety issue, and not here where there is a junction and restricted visibility. Excuse me?

Also the presence of checks are known about as they "appear on random days" Double excuse me?

Just think about it will you! Visit the ACPO site and look at the guidelines, if you really must.

Then put your hands up.

Then put brain in gear.
New speed camera - roscopervis
No you can easily see vehicles exiting the single lane road as they have about 10 metres before that they would be obscured by the house, the trap is situated about 20 metres up that single lane road not at the end, obscured by the house and hedges. Exiting this road you have excellent visibility of about a kilometre up the 60 mph road and driving along the 60 mph road cars exiting this junction are visible for the same distance, the road is straight! Also, cars exiting the junction are looking straight onto the 30mph section though there is a brow which means they can see about 50-60 metres of that part of the road. The road at this point is very open, only 4 houses, set a good deal back from the road. The junction isn?t a safety issue. If you can find it, it is the A476/B4306 junction just north of Llannon, Carmarthenshire. It is hard to explain.

Yet the other site is situated about half a mile further into the 30 mph road south of (Becca Close) on a steep hill with an almost blind chicane, a housing estate and a staggered crossroads! That is a safety issue!


With reference to the random days part, the local newspapers say that in the next week, cameras will be situated ON said road, though obviously not what day.

Maybe not explained as eloquently as I might but as a revenue earner it certainly works, as a safety tool it doesn?t.
New speed camera - Flat in Fifth
I take it you mean here

www.streetmap.co.uk/streetmap.dll?grid2map?X=25400...3

New speed camera - roscopervis
That is correct, 60 mph to 30 mph is from NE to SW, camera van is parked up below the 9 on that map. The change in speed limit occurs just a little in front of the arrow. The good site I feel is the one just north of the church. I am not justifying what I did but I just think that the location of the minor road is a money making one rather than a road safety one.
New speed camera - pdc {P}
So how far before the 30mph limit can you see the sign. I take it that it isn't hidden around the corner, and you therefore will have ample time to have slowed up to the correct speed.
New speed camera - TrevP
May I commend to you Sir, FullChat's last posting on this thread, in particlar the para starting "As I see it there are 3 types of people . ."
New speed camera - Mark (RLBS)
thread closed, please see "The Speed Camera Thread XI"
The Speed Camera Thread X - Mark (RLBS)
Pulling the threads together
 

Value my car