When is a New car not a New car? - boroboy
I have just picked up a new car from a well known supermarket (i wont mention their name at this point,but will be happy to do so if they dont give appropriate customer service).

I was a little bemused by the system they run and the fact that you sign documents before even seeing the vehicle. when you do see the vehicle you are pretty much rushed off the premises as there are so many other cars coming and going.

I accepted that my car was an import,but that was reflected in the price. What i couldnt accept was that the car was clearly not new. It had a number of blemishes and had obviously been cleaned up,but it smelt like it had been sitting around for months and did not have the new car smell or feel i was expecting.

My investigations with the makers confirmed my fears.The car was made in july 2001,ie that is the date it came off the production line.It was then exported from Ireland to the UK in October 2002. I bought it last week (March 2003).

So as far as i am concerned it isnt new and the age of the vehicle was not disclosed at the point of purchase.Had it been i would not have proceeded.

I would be gratefull if anyone could let me have their opinion as to my legal rights and/or any similar experiences and hopefully succesful resolutions.

sadly the car also came minus a proper service guide/booklet,radio guide,cigarette lighter for the receptical and a few other blemishes.

Thanks in advance.
When is a New car not a New car? - Ben79
Did you not notice the missing items when you took delivery? Before you take the keys would be the easiest time to reject.

Unfortunatly, new car refers to v little use and unregistered.

Ben
When is a New car not a New car? - boroboy
The keys were handed to me in an office where the payment was made,along with a bunch of documents,including extended warranty,car guide etc.The system operated by the supermarket was one were the salesman had crossed all the items and simply said i needed to sign.I thought they were reputable,so i stupidly signed for it with out even seeing it first,although this was never explained to me.

The certificate of conformity was written in Italian,so it was later that i managed to decipher that the car may have been built nearly 2 years ago and my enquiries confirmed this.

I cant believe this is legal practice and if it transpires it is i will publicise it to warn others.
When is a New car not a New car? - DavidHM
I don't mean to sound judgemental, but you made a mistake by signing for it unseen. However, given that this must be common practice, if you ever did sue them, the fact that you were not given the chance to see what you were signing for means that they could find it very hard to hold it against you. However, you would have to show that you had no way of knowing.

Is your car basically identical to a current spec version, or can you show that you're worse off by having a car that's nearly two years old? Obviously extra things *could* go wrong with it, and it may well be worth less when you come to sell, but is there any demonstrable harm to you at the moment?

Most people never know the build date of their cars so it would be very hard to imply into the contract that yours had to be, say, less than six months old. Assuming that the spec hasn't changed on a new one, a prospective purchaser would almost never ask about it.

As a general rule, it makes no sense to accept a car until you've inspected it, even if it's brand new. This applies particularly to supermarket cars, where the supplier won't be doing any warranty work and practically, though not legally, the franchise could be sniffy about working on an import.
When is a New car not a New car? - thebouncingbunny
buyer beware old lad.never buy wot you aint seen.i spose its easy to get bullied along by the sales people but where cars are concerned epecially i think the people selling em couldnt give a stuff once youve given them your money dealer or private.no car is a straight forward commodity like a hoover(this would be in a box ) or whatever.theyre to easily damaged in transit (and by clumsy tyre kickers employees etc)methinks.manufacturing date is something you wouldnt know tho.i hope you get it sorted tho,its sposed to be nice getting a new car.this is something others should be made aware of .good luck bunny
When is a New car not a New car? - Obsolete
I might guess that the car would corrode earlier than a more recent car but I am not sure. It could well be that the most significant cause of corrosion is salt on the road and damage to the paintwork and that sitting in a car park does nowt beyond make it a bit niffy.

As I understand it the used value of a car is based on date of registration rather than manufacture so I suspect you won't lose on that score.

I work down the road from Trade Sales and when I was in the market for a new car I walked down the road and had a look at the cars in question. (I bought from a dealer in the end.)
When is a New car not a New car? - henry k
I am appalled at what you have experienced.
I can only hope that others learn from your disappointment and anger.

For the future buyers:-
Try taking a note of the visible VIN and fire it at:-
www.autobaza.pl (from HJ Useful Websites)

It worked for my Ford but I have not tried it on any other make.
After I bought it (an ex fleet car) I was pleased to find it was at most only 6 weeks old when it was registered
When is a New car not a New car? - boroboy
Thanks for your comments/views.Having sent the company in question a couple of faxes this week i shall be phoning them on Monday to discuss and hopefully resolve. If they dont i will have no hesitation naming them and warning others.

In every note you have written you have stated that you will \"name & shame\". I am afraid that you will not be able to name them here. We are not willing to deal with the level of difficulty, includng legal difficulty, that can come from such a thing.

Please don\'t do so. Please also remember that if the company is identifiable, then it is the same as naming them. So clever use of asterisks, puns and mis-spelling will not help.

If you do insist on naming them, or obviously identifying them, then I shall remove the thread.

Thanks a lot. Mark.


When is a New car not a New car? - T Lucas
Why not take resposibility for your own actions,you did not read anything that was given to you to read and you probably did not listen to anything the sales person told you.With rights there are resposibilities.The car is 'new' in that it has never been registered/used prior to first registration in the UK.
If the CoC is written in Italian,does this mean you have bought a Fiat or Alfa,because if so,you really do need some help.
When is a New car not a New car? - Carmad 10000
Im sorry to hear about what you have experienced with this particular firm. The supermarket that i nearly brought a car to order from said that if i had any problems on 'delivery' i could reject it. I would imagine that this would be the same situation for yourself and provided you complain early enough you may get a result still. Most reputable companies will allow you to inspect a car and give it your approval, however the length of time to do this is varied.

We brought our scenic from a supermarket and they do hurry you along without easy inspection of the vehicle. This may be your strongest arguement.

Needless to say the company I was going to buy a fiesta zetec off was the same place as we got our scenic. I put a £300 deposit down on the car for delivery but days later circumstances changed after a close relative died suddenly. I decided to cancel and even though they had had the deposit for a matter of days and hadnt ordered the car, pocketed the money. I know they are legally entitled to do so, but I was angry due to the lack of work they had undertaken and their reaction to the reasons behind the cancellation in the first place. To put it mildly, i feel many big firms dont care about people provided that their shot of you - so i would make a fuss and dont settle for anything less than what you want....youve brought a car, the 2nd most expensive purchase the average person will make.

Good luck

When is a New car not a New car? - Obsolete
A colleague hates the main dealer I bought my car from. A few years back he put down a deposit, and then cancelled the order the next day. The dealer kept the deposit. Seems this is not just the behaviour of car supermarkets.

On a separate issue I am sure I posted a comment to this thread and it has gone without trace. Could someone please explain what happened to it? The language was not rude, it was on topic, and did not slander anyone.
When is a New car not a New car? - jd
Why should the dealer NOT keep the deposit ??

You've ordered a car, paid a deposit and then gone back on your order. The dealer is entitled to keep your deposit. In the hard commercial world if the dealer just returned all deposits if someone changes their mind, circumstances change, or gets a better deal elsewhere - they wouldn't be in business.

I'm amazed what punters expect from dealers as though they exist simpy as a service to car buyers rather than a commercial organisation which muct make profits.

I bet half the people moaning about dealers use the same tactics in their own businessess - yet when it comes to buying a car moan like hell because the 'seller' won't play ball.

Get real...

JD
When is a New car not a New car? - Carmad 10000
I think that considering we have brought 2 cars from the company before indicated we were serious buyers and potential long standing customers, exactly what a company like that needs, especially when imports are decreasing in demand. We had asked if we could select another vehicle in a few weeks and put our deposit towards that but they refused. The way we were treated was pretty shabby to say the least and I would not deal with them again.

I realise that companies have to make profits, but the value of long standing customers is in my mind much more important, and indeed much more worthwhile than £300.

When is a New car not a New car? - Obsolete
You've pretty much hit the nail on the head. If they don't want to see you again they keep the deposit. That's what happened with my colleague. If they want to see you again, and they have not incurred any costs/inconvenience, they refund it. Supermarkets are probably a turn 'em over quick sell 'em cheap operation so I am not surprised they didn't refund a deposit.

I didn't buy a new Nissan because the local garage had given me such poor service, despite the car being very good, so I went to Ford instead. It's called building up a customer relationship. Except the local Ford garage is even worse ... damn ...
When is a New car not a New car? - hispecgolfs
I think that considering we have brought 2 cars



I think you mean bought, not brought.


Regards

Andrew
When is a New car not a New car? - wemyss
Leif, If you take too long to type your message or delay posting for too long you will find that you are logged out.
For that reason many posters do it first in Word or similar and than paste it in to the message box.
alvin
When is a New car not a New car? - Obsolete
Alvin. I think it was removed by a moderator?

Leif
When is a New car not a New car? - daveyjp
I saw an ad for a car I was looking for which said it was brand new and £2,000 less than list. The supermarket wasn't far from me so I took a trip down and found the car. From a distance I knew it wasn't the latest spec as the wheels were an old style, no climate control, no CD player. A quick look at the info confirmed my suspicions, the car was built in July 2001 and this was November 2002! Needless to say I walked away and in to the main dealer next door where I picked up a three month old ex demo of the latest model for £3k below list.
When is a New car not a New car? - Oz
IMHO cars will lose newness and deteriorate either by usage, and in any case, with age. The quality of materials in the car (metal, plastic, whatever) can't possibly be expected to have remained 100% in their ex-works mint condition.
Oz (as was)
When is a New car not a New car? - DavidHM
I agree, but how do you put a value on the loss? And if you can't value it, how can you claim for it?
When is a New car not a New car? - joe
Surely Boroboy has a case? He made a contract to buy a new car and he has been given a car that will shortly be 2 years old. I appreciate that it is a new registration and hasn't been driven, but there must come a point when a car cannot be sold as "new"?
When is a New car not a New car? - Glutton
Why not take resposibility for your own actions,you did not read
anything that was given to you to read and you probably
did not listen to anything the sales person told you.With rights
there are resposibilities.The car is 'new' in that it has never
been registered/used prior to first registration in the UK.
If the CoC is written in Italian,does this mean you have
bought a Fiat or Alfa,because if so,you really do need some
help.


Ah, I'd missed your pious, sanctimonious posts.

If you don't have anything constructive to say, please leave the guy alone. He certainly doesn't need hassle from random strangers on the interweb.
When is a New car not a New car? - joe
Here here Glutton.
When is a New car not a New car? - Alan
Why should the moderator suggest deleting a message if the supplier is named if the facts are true and can be verified.
I have seen cars and manufacturers criticised on this forum before. Why sould it not be possible to criticise a car supermarket.
When is a New car not a New car? - DavidHM
Car manufacturers are generally not prone to suing small websites that might suggest their products are less than perfect. For a start, they'd have a lot to lose from the publicity that it would attract, purely because of their size. They'll also be much more circumspect about suing.

Certain small businesses will take the attitude that it's time to send the dogs in to protect their reputations. If they lose, it's a non story - a small case between two unimportant parties. If they win, they can get favourable publicity out of it.

Either way, a court case or an enforced settlement attracts serious risks and legal costs that this website isn't resourced to deal with. It's an invaluable resource for sharing information but in order to protect that, it's a judgement call for the moderators (of which I am not one!) as to when a product or a service should be named. In this case, I concur with the policy wholeheartedly.
When is a New car not a New car? - Obsolete
The posting from TLucas is rather confrontational isn't it.

But back to the thread, how do the web site moderators know that so-and-so is not a competitor trying to trash the competition? Curiously US web sites publish anything. It is quite ok to state that such and such a dealer is a diamond or a crook. I am sure this is good for both dealers and customers. Sadly UK law seems to make sites like this liable to legal action if they do likewise.

When is a New car not a New car? - boroboy
Thanks for the advice/comments,well most of them anyway.

I have tried to phone the company today,but the person that deals with such matters is on holiday and back tomorrow. They couldnt tell me if they had received my fax or letter as anything of this nature automatically go`s to the person who is on holiday.If he cant sort it out it go`s to a director. At least that proves they have a procedure for dealing with things-hopefully.

A bit surprised i cant name them to warn others,but i understand the rules of the game. I will be quite happy to name them if they resolve the issue.

My lawyer mate has told me to demand my money back in the first place and i am currently reviewing the procedures of other car dealers/manufacturers.My initial enquiries seem to suggest that this is not common practice and whilst a car built 20 months ago may be technically new,in the eyes of some,it seems that the manufacturer of the car i bought would not accept this of its dealer network.

I believe the date of manufacture should have been disclosed at the time i made enquiries and paid the deposit (by phone). The salesman at that time did advise re the alarm and warranty and i catagorically asked him to confirm that as i had upgraded on both fronts the car is the same as if i was buying as new from my local franchised dealer,to which he answered yes.i was keen to ensure it would be exactly the same as a UK car ie not imported,bought from a franchised dealer.

Of course now i know i should have had him put this in writing.But to be quite honest i bought an imported galxy from belgium a couple of years ago and everything was and has been fine.It was clearly new and had just come off the production line when it was delivered to me.I didnt see that vehicle either,so i disagree with some of the logice expressed by others.

Re comments from TLucas,well thanks a lot.My guess is that you opertate in the motortrade and think its fair game (the norm) to tuck someone up? Or, unlike the rest of us,have absolutely no faith in fellow man.

The car cost much nearer £20k than £10k,which in some ways makes it even more annoying. I will keep anyone interested up dated,without incurring the wrath of the moderator.

When is a New car not a New car? - Nortones2
Boroboy: did they lead you to expect a 2003 model year car, either overtly or by implication? If so, and it turns out it is an older series, then perhaps you have a lever to reject. May be worth getting some brochures/facts re 2001 m.y. Hope you succeed: sounds very dodgy practice by them!
When is a New car not a New car? - Godfrey H {P}
Boroboy there is no email address in your profile. I would quit like to know privately the name of the car supermarket.

GH
When is a New car not a New car? - T Lucas
I do not mean to sound confrontational or pious? but i do think that when you are buying something like a car,which for most people represents a large chunk of their money they might help themselves if they did a little bit of research first.If you do a bit of legwork b4 you hand over the cash it can save the tears(real or imaginary) later on and then you do not have to blame everybody else because you have made a poor buying decision.
When you give a deposit you should not expect to get it back if you cancel.Can you imagine the upset if a dealer took a deposit and then changed his mind and sold the car to another punter?
When is a New car not a New car? - boroboy
The thing is TLucas,i am not a regular car purchaser and having bought one as "new" i didnt think i needed to be an expert either. As i said above i had previously bought an import from belgium with no worries/hassle etc.

The fact is i simply did not see the blemishes and in amongst a pile of paperwork i did not notice the radio guide or service manual missing and had no chance of reading and understanding the certificate of conformity.

I asked as many questions as possible when i was enquiring about the vehicle, i also made enquiries re the supermarket group i bought from and considered them to be a decent outfit,hopefully they will prove me right.

A question to you TLucas. If you bought a car as a new vehicle,knowing it was an import and having done as much as possible to establish it was the same as if you had bought it from a franchised dealer,would you be satisfied if you later found out it was built 20 months ago and had spent those 20 months sitting in Ireland and the Uk,before you came along and bought it?
When is a New car not a New car? - jud
boroboy, There is nothing new about cars being stocked piled for long periods, this has been happening for as long as i can remember. When i buy a car deposit aside, i never hand any money over till i see the car and test drive it, i make this clear at purchase, i once rejected a ford mk4 cortina in this manner, on inspection the interior colour was different to what i ordered.
I also got my deposit back but only because ford had been on shrike for 6 months! so i had waited 9 months for the car.
When is a New car not a New car? - Rob the Bus
I do feel that a few people are being a little hard on boroboy. Yes, hindsight is a marvellous thing. Yes, some of us (myself excluded) may know exactly what to do. Yes, some of us know the exact ins and outs of the motor trade. But the vast majority of us are in boroboy's position. I know that, as I have never owned a brand new car before, I would be extremely excited when I went to pick it up and so, like a kid at Christmas, may want to play with it as soon as I could. I also know that I would be gutted to find out that my so-called 'brand new' car had been sitting in a field outside Ruislip for nigh on two years. Nobody in their right mind can claim that that car is still brand new. Would any of you accept a 'brand new' television that you suspected had been sitting in a warehouse for two years? Answer honestly now...!

I think that boroboy deserves a certain amount of symapthy, advice and positive advice. He certainly does not need the negative comments that have abounded in this thread so far.

If you can't offer useful advice, may I respectfully suggest that you keep your opinions to yourself?
When is a New car not a New car? - jud
Rob, when the WWW became available, i was led to believe that many suppressed people were suddenly able to access freedom of speech.
I do not agree with all the above posts, but do not have the cheek to dictate what and how one should post.
Leave moderating to those who do.
When is a New car not a New car? - Rob the Bus
Rob, when the WWW became available, i was led to believe
that many suppressed people were suddenly able to access freedom of
speech.
I do not agree with all the above posts, but do
not have the cheek to dictate what and how one should
post.
Leave moderating to those who do.

I have absolutely no intention to moderate. Neither do I agree with all the posts. And those who know me will agree that I am an avid supporter of free speech. What I was trying to say (perhaps badly) is that boroboy asked his original question in the hope of getting some useful and helpful comment. I am not arrogant enough to presume to know what boroboy was asking, but I would guess that he wasn't expecting to be torn off a strip for not doing things 'correctly'.

Apologies if my post was misinterpreted, or if I came across slightly 'holier than thou'. I just do not see the point of kicking a guy when he's down. I am sorry, Jud, to have offended your sensibilities.
When is a New car not a New car? - jud
Ok, we are friends again.
When is a New car not a New car? - Rob the Bus
Ooh goody! Tig, you're it!;-)
When is a New car not a New car? - Andrew-T
boro - You seem to have been unusually unlucky with the age of your 'new' car. But there must be thousands of happy? people driving vehicles which are much older than they think, judging from the huge numbers of cars lined up in outdoor compounds waiting for something to happen, for several weeks, maybe months. I can think of two places near here: under the M56 viaduct near Runcorn, and by the Ship Canal at Irlam, where the numbers must equal those at the biggest supersites. Two months on the compound and another two at the supersite, perhaps?
When is a New car not a New car? - smokie
Dunno where this post will end up, but it's an addendum to Andrew-T and UK stored cars - there used to be a huge VAG compound beneath the towers of Richborough power station in East Kent. Those towers throw out all kinds of substance, espacially since the power station went green in some fashion. Still, the cars were heavily layered with a waxy substance for the (long) duration of their stay. Didn't stop the numerous break-ins with radios and parts being nicked. My guess is that some "new" cars spent upwards of 6 months there at times, under the fall out from the towers and within a short walk of the sea with all that salt water...
When is a New car not a New car? - T Lucas
Intresting point,the Galaxy that you bought from Belgium,was this purchased by you directly from a Belgian Ford dealer,if so you are probably in a safer position than buying a car sight unseen over the telephone from a UK supermarket that will source cars from just about anywhere.I have recently seen about 50 old shape RHD Chrysler Neons still all wrapped up coming into Southampton Docks,when were they built?
If the build date on a particular car was important surely the prudent thing to do would be to check the VIN No b4 you order the car/hand over your hard earned,and not after you have taken delivery.
As regards my actions,i'm over 21 if i cock up,it's my fault,i'll deal with it,and if it's my fault i'll live with it.
When is a New car not a New car? - boroboy
If its par for the course for a new car to be aged anything up to and including 20 months,then fair enough "i will live with it".

But most of the feedback on this thread and opinion i have had (from car people aswell as lawyers) suggest it is not. I dont think the model has changed between now and 20 months ago,but thats not really the point.

Re your last comment TLucas,i never expected the car to be anything other than new,or nearly new, as in i didnt expect it to have been built so long ago.Given that, why on earth would i check the date out,i would`nt even have known how to!


When is a New car not a New car? - DavidHM
My legal twopenn'orth again... I really do NOT think you can imply something about the age of the car. It can be an express term of course, but that is not nearly the same thing.

Similarly, asking "Is it the same as at my local dealer?" is not the same as asking "Is it a UK car imported through the manufacturer's UK agent?" That might be what you meant, but I don't think you can impose that interpretation on the salesperson. I know that lawyers have told you about misrepresentation; the problem is that you haven't mentioned any evidence that a court would place significant weight on, and therefore it's difficult to force anything out of them.

The fact that everything was filled out before you had the chance to sign it is more of a problem and you may not have sufficient notice of that for you to be deemed to have accepted the car. Of course, in the last resort, the other side's laywers would definitely put you to proof on that.

I could be wrong, but if I were the supermarket, I'd fight it on that basis and stand a pretty good chance of winning. Also, quantum of damages is difficult... the best you could hope for would be the difference in value between a 2 year old car with nominal mileage and what you paid for yours.

For instance, one supermarket is (was?) doing Alfa 166 3.0 V6s for about £16k. Parkers values a 51 plater at about £12,000 but realistically there's nothing in AutoTrader for under £15,000. In that case, you'd be doing well to get £1,000 out of it - except that you're driving around in a car with an 03 rather than 51 plate, and maybe additional warranty, and all that means for the car's resale value.

By all means, complain, and don't recommend the place. The problem is that you're essentially in a position in which you can only really negotiate, rather than demand. It's poor customer service, but while it may be unethical, in strict contract law, it's not illegal. Morally, I'm on your side Boroboy, but practically, I'm a bit defeatist sorry.
When is a New car not a New car? - Obsolete
Interestingly no-one has definitively answered the question "How old does a new car have to be before it stops being new?". I would accept a 2 year old TV if it was a current model but like Boroboy I would be wary of a 'new' car of that age. I am sure a car is not like posh wine.
When is a New car not a New car? - keithb
As an aside, it is usually easy to find the approx date of manufacture by looking for date codes on under-bonnet components e.g. alternator, hoses, etc. I believe all makers build cars on a 'just in time' basis. I have used this method on a Mondeo, Punto, Saxo and BMW.
When is a New car not a New car? - teabelly
The build dates can also be on the seat belts and ash trays which are lot easier to get at.
teabelly
When is a New car not a New car? - wemyss
How many of the car buying public know of such things as VIN numbers.
How many would buy a new car if they were told in the showroom that it had stood in a field for a couple of years.
I would be very aggrieved in your position Boraboy and think you are justified in your complaints.
have you thought of looking if they are in a trade association such as Motor Traders and complain to them.
And Lucas I wouldn't like the thought of going rock climbing with you and needing help.
When is a New car not a New car? - blowpipe
'Why should the moderator suggest deleting a message if the supplier is named if the facts are true and can be verified.
I have seen cars and manufacturers criticised on this forum before. Why sould it not be possible to criticise a car supermarket.'
Alan, I sent an email to mark on Sunday making a very similar point, but have had no reply. A motorcycle site (www.hondavfrclub.org) recently had a stunning success in overturning the iffy returns policy of a 'well known German manufacturer of motorcycle clothing'. The UK arm picked up on the thread, and with due credit put right a wrong. The quite factual story had begun to spread to other sites, and they had little option but to do the decent thing. Why can't this be the case on this site when something's clearly amiss?
When is a New car not a New car? - Mark (RLBS)
Blowpipe,

I have no outstanding e-mails. So either I did not receive your e-mail, or you did not receive my reply - although I'm pretty sure I didn't receive an e-mail from you, but I get a lot. If you send it again, I'll reply.

And the policy has been restated here so many times it boring.

But here is the main point - you might know it is factual, you might very well be right - but how do I know ?

I don't, so you can't.

>>Why should the moderator suggest deleting a message if the supplier is named if the facts are true and can be verified.

And, for the last time, if anybody has any queries about the moderating policy, do it in e-mail. Just because you ask the question in front of people doesn't mean you'll get a different answer.

The policy is under "The Small Print" on the red menu to your left.




When is a New car not a New car? - joe
Boroboy

How was the car advertised? What did the advert say? how was it described on the company's website. If anything was said to suggest that the car was newer than it was, then you might have the basis of a breach of contract or misrepresentation claim.
When is a New car not a New car? - T Lucas
Regardless of my comments(which i know are not welcome)i wam very intrested to hear what the supplying supermarket have to say about the situation.As a minor point of intrest cars destined for the Aussie market have to have the build date stamped on the car in plain sight in plain English,maybe something to consider for Europe?
When is a New car not a New car? - boroboy
Just to update you i have today managed to speak to the person that deals with complaints.Sadly he has had to send it higher within the firm. However he and i had a conversation which suggests this kind of thing isnt usual,or not usually spotted perhaps.

He stated that technically the car was new,to which i replied that the same logic could be applied to a car built say 5 years ago,but not owned or driven. He agreed with me that perhaps only a judge would confirm what is or isnt new in this respect,unless anyone at his firm can come up with something that proves them as being correct.

Hopefully they will revert to me soon as i am currently driving the car and thus further depreciating its value!

re some of the comments/queries on this thread:

-the car was advertised in the new car section of the web site. The same site not surprisingly states the massive savings versus dealer purchases.

-I definately asked the salesman if there was anything else i should be aware of or know before i proceeded with the purchase and he made it quite clear that with the alarm fitted and warranty upgrade (both of which i paid for) the car was the same as a new one purchased from my local franchised dealer.

-valuing loss will,i accept be difficult. To my mind i have paid a lower price because the car is an import and that is the only reason in my opinion that it should have been priced as such.If there is a lower second hand value to an imported car i would expect this to be taken into account.

In reality i dont know where this go`s. My initial legal advice to demand my money back probably has little substance,but at least its a starting point in discussions. Will keep you informed.
When is a New car not a New car? - DavidHM
Without naming the supplier, would you mind saying what the car was that you bought and how much you paid for it? Some cars lose an awful lot more second hand than others.

It does look like you have accepted the car by driving around in it now. You might have stood a fair chance of getting your money back if you'd rejected it immediately you found out, but only if the dealer was willing to play ball as I doubt you could have litigated it to that conclusion. (I doubt you'd have wanted to either).

Even so, if you've overpaid for it, you can profitably focus on getting back anything you've actually lost. This might be difficult to quantify and it might be more palatable for the dealer and no worse for you if you get goodwill out of them in another way, e.g., free sat nav or something like that. Even so, I do think it's about negotiating rather than litigating, on the basis that there was a misrepresentation (innocent perhaps) but it's difficult for you to prove it.
When is a New car not a New car? - boroboy
To DavidHM, i would rather not divulge at present,as if i did it wouldnt be that difficult for anyone to find out where i got the car from and a) its only fair to let them try to put things right and b) i have been warned by the controllers of the site not to name names or do anything that might give away the names.

Re my taking action.i phoned the firm within 2 days of receipt having had the certificate half translated by a friend of someone i know who speaks italian.I followed this up in writing the same day and warned that i feared the car was built at least 20 months ago and that i was still trying to establish facts.

I then had to wait a couple of days for the local dealer to trace the car ( i felt a bit guilty about this as i had test driven one of their cars beforehand).They eventually put me onto the manufacturers agent in Ireland who confirmed matters.I immediately faxed a letter when i found out and each time i gave my various contact phone numbers and requested they contact me immediately.

The fact is it is me doing all the chasing and it is me that is concious of the fact that mileage is being incurred.The ball is now in their court.

One other point,i have looked again at the website in question and it uses the phrase "Brand new cars" on more than one ocassion. I find it hard to believe that the law,or judge if a law needed to be made,would agree that i have bought a brand new car! but time will tell.

I agree with your comments on negotiating and not litigating,there are enough rich lawyers around already!
When is a New car not a New car? - jud
Another one for the check list some one recently enquired about re collecting his new car.
1/ When was the car built?.
When is a New car not a New car? - No Do$h
If the CoC is written in Italian,does this mean you have
bought a Fiat or Alfa,because if so,you really do need some
help.


Oi! You leave Alfas alone!
When is a New car not a New car? - Vansboy
May as well add my bit!
I find it hard to believe the car is EXACTLY same spec as 20+ months ago, so what comparrisons were made by you, plus, of course, what representations were made by the sellers?
Things like...
Seller - save £???? off manufacturers list price!
You - Which list? What year?
They would be expected to provide this,if you were to get lgal.
Seller - Full UK spec!
You - The same as I would buy,if I went to the main dealer?
They would need to show that what they were offering was so, probably hard to do if it wasn't current-ish model.
Sometimes it's just the simple statements, that make ALL the difference!
However, if it was a low production model, or limited edition spec,it's quite possible, that an 'old', new car wouldn't be a real surprise.
In my investigations for a new car for Mrs Vansboy,I've discovered plenty of MX5's that have standing been around for , what must be 18 months.(Wonder when they were built)This is main dealer stock & it's now prompted lots of pre-registering!
Ineresting one, this!
Mark
When is a New car not a New car? - joe
A legal point. You have referred to asking for your money back. In law, this is the equivalent to treating the contract as discharged and rejecting the car. If you wish to do this, then 2 things are immediately relevant. Firstly, you will have to give notice to the company that they are in serious breach of contract and that you are rejecting the car. Secondly, you must not act in a way that is inconsistent with rejecting the car. Driving about in it would qualify as inconsistent conduct!
This only applies to asking for your money back. It does not apply to you if you are merely seeking a cash sum to compensate for diminution in value.
When is a New car not a New car? - boroboy
I take your legal point john. But i did fax as soon as i established the date of manufacture and gave 3 contact numbers stating that i wanted to speak to them urgently and demanding my money back. I then phoned the next day,to be told that the person who deals with these matters matters was on holiday but had received my fax. I asked if anyone else would deal with it in his abscence and was told it would have to wait until the next day.

I again had to make the call only to be told he was unable to deal with it and had passed it to someone higher up. I explained that as my lawyer had advised that i should demand my money back it was in their interest to deal with it sooner rather than later and that i was using the car.

We will see what happens when they finally get round to responding,but it is clear that any delays are with them and not me.Cheers for the advice though.
When is a New car not a New car? - Northern Gasman
Sorry to hear about your problem.
Just out of curiosity who did you find out the original date from production?
When is a New car not a New car? - boroboy
From the manufacurers office,in Ireland.It had been shipped there first and left there back in October last year.
When is a New car not a New car? - Dodge
I too bought a car from the unnamed supermarket.
2 months after purchase discovered blemishes coming through paintwork obviously covered up by paint job before purchase.
Too late for any come back.
If you are going to buy an imported car do it yourself.
Go to France/Belgium order from dealer to proper UK spec.
Half these cars at supermarkets have been sitting all over Europe waiting for shipment to UK especially worry about RHD cars delivered to Ireland/Cyprus etc. These have been around for months.
Most of the money saved at these places is now illusory. I would now only recommend people buy from UK sources dealers selling through brokers etc. Whats the point in saving 2K to find your 10K car is unsaleable in 3 years.
When is a New car not a New car? - boroboy
UPDATE...

I have been trying to settle this dispute with the well known supermarket for 3 weeks now. i suspect their dragging it out is part of their tactics and possibly reduces my legal right to return the car.After a number of false promises that the boss would phone me to discuss,i was eventually called by the workshop manager who promised to put any faults right but would not committ on the manufacture date,inferior warranty or a number of the other issues.

As i began the purchase by phone the docket i signed with terms and conditions in small print is irrelevant. I have also established that the web site often uses the phrase "brand new cars". I am fairly convinced that i have a right to redress unfer the 1979 sale of goods act,in that the car is not as described (even though i went to great lengths to discuss this)and other issues within it.

Even though this site wont allow the publication of the firms name,i believe other outlets will (watchdog?). This may be the only way i can get something done,which is a shame given the good press this firm claims to receive. I will update again when/if things develop. in the meantime any duidance or shared experiences would be appreciated.
When is a New car not a New car? - T Lucas
Funnily enough i was thinking about this thread today when i had a newsletter sent through from BIMTA(British Independant Motor Trade Association)and there was a small article about the law and what is a new car.I will post it from my office in the morning,i think you may find it an intresting read.From memory it was Ford Motor co v a punter.
When is a New car not a New car? - borasport20
I think we'd all be interested to see that...



I have to grow old - but I don't have to grow up
When is a New car not a New car? - Vansboy
If you still have no luck, don't go the Watchdog route.
Try, as I've said before, our local BBC ThreeCountiesRadio Consumer Prog.
Call Stephen Rhodes 08459 455555 weekdays 10-midday.
You don't have to live locally (Beds/Herts/Bucks) & it is a very informative listen.95.5 FM 630 MW.
It won't cost anything, except the 10p call!
VB
When is a New car not a New car? - Dave_TD
Vansboy - did you hear the caller yesterday about her catflap being 3ft up her new double-glazed door? Absolutely classic stuff, they wound up having to call her back because they couldn't talk for laughing...
When is a New car not a New car? - T Lucas
From BIMTA newsletter,From DVLA Policy Dept,Case Law R v Ford Motor Co.Ltd 1974 3All E.R 489. Criteria for newness
1)The vehicle has not been sold retail before.
2)It is a current model,or a model that has ceased production within the last 2 years.
3)It has not had excessive use,delivery mileage only.
4)It is in mint condition as produced at the factory.
5)It has not been repaired by a third party.
Hope this helps.
When is a New car not a New car? - Vansboy
Classic!
But did the lady get her new gearbox from the 'un-named' Coventry car maker, awaiting delivery from France, for 6 weeks, yet?
VB
When is a New car not a New car? - boroboy
Thanks T Lucas

that probably does`nt do anything to strengthen my case although the car isnt in mint condition (fair amount of rust already formed on exhaust and brake discs,plus a few blemishes).

I guess my main argument is that they advertise the car as "brand new",when any reasonable person would say that it is`nt. There are other smaller issues that still havent been resolved and i think that publicising things might be the only way forward,although i am still waiting to hear from my legal people.

Again,i will update when any news is forthcoming.
When is a New car not a New car? - Robin the Technician
You seem to have spotted something many new car buyers don't. Many cars sold today have been hanging around for months before they are sold. Considered buying a Japanese car?? Its spent 3 months locked in a ships hold travelling from tokyo to southampton before the dealer gets a chance at delivery. Cars are classified new from date of first registration and not manufacture. Generally a car bought from a dealership would have been properly prepared through a pre-delivery inspection and a thorough valet. You are just unlucky and I'm surprised that a motor manufacturer even divulged the date of manufacture to you. Just remember a car is bought and sold by it's registration date.
When is a New car not a New car? - Nortones2
"Just remember a car is bought and sold by it's registration date" I think this comment is cobblers. Vehicles in transit from Japan (or to Japan!) are given protection. On the other hand, vehicles that don't sell (Lancias for instance) have been stood around for months, unprotected, on airfields. New? In such a case I doubt that is an accurate description. Eventually, any reasonable interpretation of the word "new" can be confounded by age, current model status and importantly, condition. Registration date is relevant where the car is reasonably fresh: 2 years unused, left on an airfield and possibly superceded MAY negate that.
When is a New car not a New car? - boroboy
Thats my point exactly nortonres2.

The website for this particular supermarket uses the phrase "brand new" more than once. I think this is my strongest legal argument,regardless of the fact that the warranty sold is not as stated and the car is still without a radio gide or service guide.

The wet field thing has obviously been the case as the surface rust on the exhaust proves. Not something you would expect form a "brand new" car.

For a big firm,this particular companies after sales service is ridiculous and suggests they know how to avoid dealing with issues and stalling. I cant believe i am the first to have discovered the age of manufacture and i bet i wont be the last.Shame i cant name them,not in this medium anyway!
When is a New car not a New car? - jeds
I know this might sound a bit out of date at 20 years ago - when I was a student back in 1983 I used to drive cars for a very very well known manufacturer of pug ugly French cars. At the main distribution centre they used to bring cars in at night which had been sat on the French coast for up to 3 years. I kid you not these cars were in absolutely appalling condition and the first thing that happened to them was a full respray and complete new fitout - new chrome, lights, seats, carpets etc. The insides of the cars were completely full of brambles which had grown up through the interiors and engine compartment etc. Whoever had got them going at the French end had just cut out the driver seat compartment with a pair of secateurs. About a week and a half later those cars were handed over to buyers as brand new cars.
 

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