The Speed Camera Thread - Volume 8 - Mark (RLBS)
For the continued discussion of all things pertaining to Speed Cameras.


This Volume is closed, please see Volume 9.

Mark (RLBS)
Moderator at Work

mailto:mark_moderator@honestjohn.co.uk
Speed Cameras - A Good Thing - Graham
"More than 280 deaths and serious injuries have been prevented by installing more speed cameras on the roads in eight areas of the UK."

So there we have it a resounding success.

Still I expect the habitual law breakers here will moan about their liberties being infringed.

Flame suit on.
Speed Cameras - A Good Thing - CMark {P}
Graham, you are obviously on a roll today.
;-)
CMark
Speed Cameras - A Good Thing - Toad, of Toad Hall.
Airbags?
--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
Speed Cameras - A Good Thing - Dan J
Hi Graham

Hmm - I do wonder how they managed to calculate that 280 deaths and serious injuries were prevented. In many speed camera areas the figures have remained roughly the same or in some cases, such as Essex, increased. Could well be some fabricated statistic.

My prime concern was that this has been taken as a reason to install hundreds more on our roads. Now, I am certainly not going to argue in favour of speeding (though I frequently do on the Mway...) but my issue with these cameras isn't their use, as in principle it is very good, but the fact that in this instance it was specifically the revenue regeneration areas (i.e. where the police can keep the fines from cameras) where these figures were being quotedd for. These cameras are generally not in places where safety is paramount but on wide open road stretches which perhaps has a 40mph speed limit.

Think of all the dangerous roads you know around towns and any schools where people drive like lunatics - I would bet that the majority of the time if you think where all the local speed cameras are (I do say majority of the time, and not all) they are not in the areas where they are really needed, more where they can generate revenue.

It says it all that government statistics are to catch 3 million people by 2005 (I think...) - Surely if these cameras are improving the situation they should be hoping to be catching much fewer people instead of 1.5 times as many!

Defintely not arguing against speed cameras here but am happy to have a lively debate :)

Fire extinguisher at the ready - awaiting thread movement into Speed Cameras Part XXVII

Dan J
Speed Cameras - A Good Thing - J Bonington Jagworth
As an habitual law breaker (but, strangely, still alive) may I ask how they know? This is the typical woolly statistic put out when HMG wants to justify something it's already decided. Where and when were these 280 lives saved? Wait a minute, that wasn't 280 lives, it was "280 lives or serious injuries" which isn't quite the same thing, is it?

It's spin, and you know it.
Speed Cameras - A Good Thing - Homme van Blanc
Absolutely right JBJ, it is spin and very selective quoting from HMG.

The number of accidents etc. in Thames Valley and Essex, also part of the same experiment, went up!

Why didn't they claim on that basis that speed cameras don't work?
Speed Cameras - A Good Thing - BrianW
Last year the Essex fatalities figure dropped from 123 to 93, IIRC.

Still above the long term trend BC (before cameras) but hailed as a 24% reduction nevertheless.
Speed Cameras - A Good Thing - Homme van Blanc
BrianW said "Last year the Essex fatalities figure dropped from 123 to 93, IIRC."

HMG's figures reported in the Times:
In six of the eight areas in the pilot the number of serious crashes within 500 metres of speed cameras fell by 35 per cent as police used the money to change films more often and to erect more cameras.

Two forces, Thames Valley and Essex, however, saw serious injuries rise over the two-year trial period, despite handing out the most speeding tickets. Both forces had been using speed cameras for several years and their results suggest that cameras have little impact on a hard core of drivers. More than 175,000 motorists in the Thames Valley area were caught speeding and paid £7 million in fines in the two years to March 2002. But injuries of all severities at Thames Valley?s 280 speed camera sites rose by 14 per cent.

Drivers in Essex paid more than £5 million in fines but deaths and serious injuries rose by 15 per cent

Speed Cameras - A Good Thing - Steve S
I have to use the A12 a fair amount and can understand why John Peel refuses to use it - going several miles out of his way to get home to Suffolk!

There is of course reckless and dangerous driving everywhere but for sheer volume - the A12 takes some beating.
Speed Cameras - A Good Thing - BrianW
I get worried when politicians start quoting percentages.

For example: Three accidents reduced to two is a 33% reduction, but probably merely represents a normal statistical variation.
Speed Cameras - A Good Thing - RichardW
I thought this would apper here today...

I THINK the figures are at camera sites, so they can justify more cameras. Not sure how they measure at the camera sites, but there we are.

Isn't it about the third time this data has been rolled out anyway - they were still talking about the 'trial areas' which I am sure went west long ago after the first set of spurious data.

I am sure that the government will use the line look we've caught all these people speeding, but the death rate is unchanged, which clearly means we need to catch more people.

Hmm, go figure.

Anybody know if the 2002 road accident stats have been published yet, and where?

Richard
Speed Cameras - A Good Thing - SteveH42
Is it time to jump on the conspiracy theory band wagon? As HJ points out, not on the treasure benefits from speed camera convictions, so do insurers, and as insurers are having a hard time at the moment making ends meet, what better but a 'mutually beneficial' increase in cameras and thus convictions?

Personally, I'd prefer to see a system of warnings given for minor offences (say <5 mph / 10% over) to make people sit up and take notice, as well as investement to improve roads to make then safer, and in public transport to make an realistic alternative.
Speed Cameras - A Good Thing - Mark (RLBS)
A camera that takes your photo at less than 10% over ?

I know we hear about them all the time, but its not my experience and I suspect is largely urban myth.
Speed Cameras - A Good Thing - SteveH42
Well, a colleague at work got done for doing 32 in a 30 zone, so they must be around...

Anyway, I suspect it's just that cameras as a rule aren't set to less than 10% above. No reason why they couldn't be.
Speed Cameras - A Good Thing - Mark (RLBS)
With all due respect I don't believe it, although I am quite sure that you were told so, so its your colleague rather than you that I doubt.

I'd have to see the ticket first.
Speed Cameras - A Good Thing - nick
I saw on the local news tonight that rates of deaths and serious injuries are down by 62% at camera sites in lincolnshire compared to before cameras were installed. And we're talking 100's of incidents not '3 down to 1'. So good news? I think so.
Speed Cameras - A Good Thing - SteveH42
I know it sounds a tad harsh - TBH I'd be surprised if they could guarantee their speed detection system was that accurate under anything but lab conditions. I do know he was *very* upset about being done for just 2mph over the limit, but as you say, we only have his word for. I have a feeling he did mention he knew of someone else that had been done for 33 - perhaps Lancs police are more stringent than other forces?
Speed Cameras - A Good Thing - blowpipe
I HAVE seen a ticket issued in Lancashire for 34 in a 30, and was in the car as a passenger when it happened. The offending camera was on the road into Preston from the motorway. A form with the NIP offered a speed managment course, which the driver opted for.
Speed Cameras - A Good Thing - Mark (RLBS)
34/30 would be more than 10%.

Mind you, even then I am a little surprised.
Speed Cameras - A Good Thing - J Bonington Jagworth
"Why didn't they claim on that basis that speed cameras don't work?"

Because they make money. Take that out of the equation, and they wouldn't be nearly so popular - as indeed they weren't before the law was changed to allow police forces to siphon it off. It's a shame all round, because it diverts attention from other, less measurable, causes of accidents, and it helps bring policing into disrepute.
Speed Cameras - A Good Thing - CM
All this talk of 280 lives being saved, accidents have been cut from x to y etc etc is totally misleading and irrelevant. As the accident has not happened who is to say that it would have happened in the first place? As it is obviously impossible how can you qunatify how many lives have been saved. I don't seriously think that you can use prvious years' figures as there are too many variables involved.

Sure we generally all drive above the speed limit, but I do not think that cameras slow us down away from where they are sited. Personally I find a sign saying how many people have been killed at a particular spot more of a deterrant than a camera (I haven't seen a sign like this in the UK).

Off topic a bit, there was an interesting piece about speed humps in the papers a week or so ago (not sure if it was mentioned). It stated that the Ambulance service said that humps cause more people to die than are saved.
Speed Cameras - A Good Thing - BrianW
The DVLC website has not got the 2002 figures up yet, but comparing 2001 to 2000, the "Killed" figure has gone uo from 3,409 to 3,450 and the "KSI" figures down from 41,564 to 40,560.

Conventional theory is that speed reductions will reduce the severity of accident and result in fewer killed.
Yet since 1994 the KSI figure has fallen by twenty percent yet the Killed has only gone down by five percent (a fall of 200 when you would expect at least a 730 reduction to match the KSI fall percentage).

The reduction in serious injuries is probably due to better in-car protection in the form of seat belts, air bags and crumple zones.

All Severities injuries in 2001 was almost identical to 1991!

So despite declining traffic speeds your chance of dying on the roads have been just about the same for the last eight years.
HJ News item - Speeding Ticket 'Fines' - CMark {P}
Speeding Ticket 'Fines' Rise to £500 Plus
Tue, 11 Feb 2003

The massive proliferation of speed cameras planned thoroughout the UK mean that not only will almost every driver in the country be forced to...

OBSERVE THE SPEED LIMIT???

Is it really that difficult?

I've never had a point on my 19-year old UK licence after having driven around 175,000 miles on UK roads. I've had 150 mph on the speedo in Germany, driven from Manhattan to Alaska, all around Africa and never had an accident (yet). Am I really such a freak?

CMark
HJ News item - Speeding Ticket 'Fines' - smokie
Commendable.

"I've had 150 mph on the speedo in Germany," - just goes to prove that speed is safe in the right hands. Doesn't it?
HJ News item - Speeding Ticket 'Fines' - volvoman
Surely, the higher the speed the greater the likelihood of serious accidents and death whether due to stupidity, negligence, thrid party involvment, mechanical` failure or external factors totally beyond the driver's control.

Not long ago I was on the M25 near the Dartford Tunnel and a stone chipping was thrown up and hit my windscreen. I was doing 60mph at the time and as it was the bang startled me and made quite a chip in the windscreen. What would've happened at 120 mph ? Smashed screen, loss of control, major pile up, death ? Who knows, but that's the point isn't it and who needs to risk lives to drive at those sorts of speeds anyway ?

Trouble is that whatever limit there is people will break it and then claim it's too low. I don't know what the answer to this is but I'm happy at 70 or thereabarts on the motorway and feel the present limit is about right.
HJ News item - Speeding Ticket 'Fines' - Dynamic Dave
Not long ago I was on the M25 near the Dartford
Tunnel and a stone chipping was thrown up and hit my
windscreen. I was doing 60mph at the time and as
it was the bang startled me and made quite a chip
in the windscreen. What would've happened at 120 mph ?


What would have happened would be nothing as if you were going twice as fast you would have gone past the stone chipping before it had been thrown up ;o)
HJ News item - Speeding Ticket 'Fines' - teabelly
OBSERVE THE SPEED LIMIT???
Is it really that difficult?


Precisely. It isn't that difficult but people seem to choose to speed then complain about the consequences. The only thing I object to is having artificially low limits eg large wide roads that would be fine as 40 or even 50 being a 30. It does affect concentration levels no matter how much you talk to yourself.

Has anyone done any studies on the accuracies of speedos? I am sure there must be some variation according to tyre pressure, outside temperature etc. While there is still the feeling that speedos over read I think people will tend to sit at an indicated just over the limit as they want to get their money's worth.
teabelly
HJ News item - Speeding Ticket 'Fines' - HF
>>While there is still the feeling
that speedos over read I think people will tend to sit
at an indicated just over the limit as they want to
get their money's worth.
teabelly

>>

And surely if, as has been mentioned, there is usually a 10% leeway factor, then people will quite happily travel at 10% over the limit and never be clicked?
HF
HJ News item - Speeding Ticket 'Fines' - Dave_TD
Has anyone done any studies on the accuracies of speedos?
I am sure there must be some variation according to tyre
pressure, outside temperature etc. While there is still the feeling
that speedos over read I think people will tend to sit
at an indicated just over the limit as they want to
get their money's worth.


Near me there's a temporary 30 limit while a bridge is replaced. There's a "speed detection unit" [1] [2] just before the roadworks, if it is to be believed then my speedo is about 8% fast. The sport around these parts is to see how high a reading you can get on the roadside display, which is located immediately before the 30 limit starts. I find that approaching it at an indicated 30 makes it read 28, at 40 it reads 37, at an indicated 65 it reads 60. I've approached it at 50 before and been overtaken by someone who made it read 93...
We tried it in the newly acquired Mondeo on the way home on Saturday, at an indicated 45mph the display read... 45 mph! So we know not to cruise at slightly more than the limit in the Mondeo then.

[1] A display screen which shows the speed in mph of any vehicle approaching it in yellow digits, but is not linked to a camera.

[2] There's another one near Cambridge on the A428, if your indicated speed is over 30mph it alternates your speed with a sad face :-( on the display, if it's 30mph or less it shows a happy one! :-)
HJ News item - Speeding Ticket 'Fines' - joe
Maybe not at the moment, but give it a year or two...

I have been driving for nearly 20 years and had never had a ticket until I was Zapped last June. I hope you touched plenty of wood when you posted your message.
HJ News item - Speeding Ticket 'Fines' - teabelly
Have you never had a ticket until then because you always stuck to limits or because you only speeded in areas where you thought there wasn't enforcement?
teabelly
HJ News item - Speeding Ticket 'Fines' - Toad, of Toad Hall.
after having driven around 175,000 miles on UK roads.


Which only proves that if you do low mileage (possibly on roads you know?) you can get away with it....
--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
Cameras can't read square plates - Richard Turpin
Yesterday's motoring Telegraph claims that the congestion charge cameras can't read square number plates. Assuming TFL has used existing technology, does this mean that speed cameras also can't read them. They are of course perfectly legal. This might be a genuine legal loophole. Does anyone know?

Incidentally, I live in London and have noticed over the last few days, people with no front plate attached. Instead it is propped up on the dashboard inside the front windscreen. I wonder why!!!
Cameras can't read square plates - Doc
As with speed cameras, the vehicle is photographed, so the shape of the plate is not an issue.
If the fixed cameras miss you, then there is the mobile ones to contend with.
Additionally, the police will be on the lookout for 'dirty' plates and plates on the dashboard, etc.
Cameras can't read square plates - Dogbreath
Humans read the pics the computers can't read
speed camera accuracy - davie dodds
I hope I'm not reintroducing a previously covered topic here. If I am please redirect me to the appropriate thread.

My query relates to the accuracy of gatso cameras as I was flashed last night.

Approx 800-1000yards prior to a well marked camera in a 70 zone I overtook another vehicle. It was travelling at approx 75-80, I was doing 85-90 (no debate about the rights and wrongs of this please). However, i started to ease off as the camera approached and passed through the camera at approx 70-75, the same speed I had travelled through the others on the road with no effect. The other vehicle, however, continued at a constant speed and threatened to undertake, more or less pulling level with me. The camera flashed twice. I genuinely believe it must have been the other vehicle that triggered it - can the camera accurately decipher which of the 2 vehicles was speeding or will it automatically be assumed that the vehicle in the 'overtaking' lane (ie me) was the culprit.

If I am wrongly accused, is there ANYTHING that I can do to establish my innocence or do I just need to take the hit? It's not the fine that bothers me but the 3 points and resulting insurance premium increases.
speed camera accuracy - Stargazer {P}
As far as I understand it, the speed has to be confirmed by measuring from the lines on the road if there is any confusion, for example two cars in the same frame.

regards

Ian
speed camera accuracy - Dan J
No, a Gatso cannot decipher which vehicle was the one speeding (note front facing digital cameras do have this functionality). This is the reason why for Gatso cameras, lines are painted on the road to a) give a "second opinion" on the speed and b) in this kind of scenario, highlight which of the cars was speeding.

There is a wealth of extremely useful information at:

www.speed-trap.co.uk

Also contained in here is the case study of one guy who knew, although he was speeding, it was far less than the ridiculously elevated NIP he received. If you were genuinely not speeding as you went through the camera, yet receive an NIP due to the other guy, this will make interesting reading and could be used to prove innocence.

Saying that though, the Police seem to be tightening up on laxity here as having these things thrown out of court does them no favours - besides which it is highly likely the camera did not even have any film in it!
speed camera accuracy - rory
I've been told that if you get a double flash there is film in the camera. Whether that is true or not, my understanding is that you have a double flash and get two photos. The distance - number of lines on the road you have crossed - means your speed can be calculated since the distance between the lines is fixed. That way if there are two vehilcles the police can tell the speed of either.
speed camera accuracy - Dan J
No - the camera will fire whether it has film or not.

In fact in the earlier days of the cameras, some would only have the flash mechanism in as the camera was so expensive, thus acting as a deterrent.
speed camera accuracy - steveb
It sounds like you were both over the speed limit, travelling at virtually the same speed. If there was film in the camera (which there probably wasn't according to the probabilities) the police might take a dim view of two cars being caught doing the same speed over the limit, on the same stretch of road (racing each other ?), and therefore "do" you both.

Another factor you might want to think about is the accuracy of your mileometer, often (depending on make and model) these can be c10% out, therefore at an indicated 75 you may actually have been travelling at 82....
speed camera accuracy - Mark (RLBS)
>>therefore at an indicated 75 you may actually have been travelling at 82....

I don't think so. A speedo may read up to 10% over, but not at all under.
speed camera accuracy - No Do$h
Funnily enough I suspect both my last and current car must be pretty accurate. There's a 50 limit dual-carriageway here that I regularly use at precisely 50 (by my speedo). It's heavily covered by cameras and rightly so with its accident record.

It is extremely rare that I am not overtaking cars along there with a comfortable 5mph margin, suggesting that either I'm being hugely reckless by driving at 50 or their speedos are showing 50 but are actually doing less.

Let's hope it's not a case of under-reading (illegal, as per Mark's post)!

Since the saturation of Bournemouth/Poole with speed cameras (mostly mobile) I have found that I am absolutely religious about staying within the limit, even on those oh-so-inviting open avenues that could comfortably support a higher limit. The odd thing is, I'm so much more relaxed and likely to notice events around me than I used to be when buzzing around at 35.

It's imortant to remember, however, that a limit is just that. It's not a minimum or required speed, so if conditions require, slower please!
speed camera accuracy - Peter D
Interesting one. You imply you were speeding ie. 70 to 75 mph your concern must be that if film was in camera you will both be prosecuted for speeding. They can only prosecute one driver with the speed printed on the photo and they will use the road marking to ascertain which car had travelled the furthest. However in doing so they observe you have also travelled further than the recognised distance ,10.25 markings, they may NID you as well. Having said that they would have to be pretty sure. You travel 1.4666 feet/second for every mph you are travelling and the Gatso flash rate is ½ a second so you move 0.73333 ft per mph you are travelling at. So at 70 mph you will travel 51.3333 ft divide by 5 ( because that’s the distance between the markings ) and you will have travelled 10.266 markings. At 75 mph you will have travelled 10.99 markings ( With a noraml trigger they look for 11 marking between the flashes ) you would clearly eyeball a difference of down to ¼ of a marking so the optical resolution that they could be sure about is about ¼ of a marking therefore good to about 1.66 mph. If you were doing 72 then probably not, if you were doing 73 then probably, unless they identify the inside car was really clocking it and travelled 12/13 markings and yours was down at 10.5 then they will ignore you. Good Luck Probably no film so forget it for 10 days. Peter
speed camera accuracy - Dave_TD
Probably no film so forget it for 10 days.


I subscribe to that theory, after all once it's done it's done. Two weeks ago I, SWMBO, my best mate and his girlfriend ALL managed to possibly get nicked for speeding on the same day!
SWMBO reckons her speedo was saying 53 when she saw the camera van in a 50 limit, so *I* think she's alright.
I was travelling on a single carriageway, 60 limit, TOWARDS a Gatso[1], no other cars in sight. Doing about 75, Gatso flashed twice as I was next to (but not driving over) the white distance markings on the other side of the road. From what I've gathered on this and other sites I don't think I'll have anything to worry about.
Mate was travelling on 40 limit dual carriageway at 40mph, followed by his girlfriend who was overtaking him just before the end of the dual bit, she reckons she had 45 on her speedo but that it reads fast compared to his. Camera[2] flashes twice, they both get that sinking feeling.
2 weeks on, and mate's girlfriend got her NIP in the post this morning... No-one else has yet though.

[1] A505 from Royston towards Duxford M11 junct, camera is at Chrishall turning
[2] A505 Letchworth towards Baldock
speed camera accuracy - Peter D
The rule is that they have 14 days to deliver the NID and officially it supposed to be sent by recorded delivery as they have to prove when it was sent. If you receive the NID after the 14 days and allowing for no post on Sundays etc. you can get a Lawyer to return it with a covering letter and it will get droppred. Due to the costs they ofter do not use recorded delivery as per the act and cannot prove when it was posted. Good Luck Regards


Peter
speed camera accuracy - Toad, of Toad Hall.
The rule is that they have 14 days to deliver the
NID and officially it supposed to be sent by recorded delivery
as they have to prove when it was sent. If you
receive the NID after the 14 days and allowing for no
post on Sundays etc. you can get a Lawyer to return
it with a covering letter and it will get droppred.


Disagree with your conclusion. They have to prove it was sent. When and if it arrives is no concern of theirs.

I'm sure there are ways other than recorded delivery to prove a letter is sent.
--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
speed camera accuracy - Peter D
Butterworth's Law; ISBN 0406981469


In the case of a number of moving traffic offences, the driver, if not stopped and interviewed by the police at the time, may experience considerable difficulty in recalling the circumstances some weeks after the event. For this reason, the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988, section 1 states that, in relation to certain named offences, a person shall not be convicted unless:
 he was warned at the time of the possibility of prosecution for the offence;
or
 he was served with a summons for the offence within 14 days of its commission;
or
 a notice of intended prosecution specifying the nature of the alleged offence and the time and place where it is alleged to have been committed was served within 14 days on him or the person, if any, registered as the keeper of the vehicle at the time of the commission of the offence. (In the case of dangerous or careless cycling the notice must be served on the rider.)



The Operational regulations go on to define the method of recording the posting and defined recorded delivery, however this is often not used went challenged can not proved when they were posted or delivered. Should a NID posted by recorded delivery then the first attemped delivery date ( wintin the 14 days of the commission can be used i.e. you were on holiday.

There are several site that will comfirm the 14 rule. So allowing for late post and no post on Sunday you have about 16/17 days and as long as the postman has not tried to deliver a recorded Nid then you are probably safe. Regards Peter
speed camera accuracy - Toad, of Toad Hall.
Hmmm. Can DVD or MLC confirm this conclusion?

If you get a NIP that hasn't been sent it is possible to claim it was late and get away with it?
--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
speed camera accuracy - Toad, of Toad Hall.
Hmmm. Can DVD or MLC confirm this conclusion?

If you get a NIP that hasn't been sent recorded delivery it is possible to claim it was late and get away with it?
--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
speed camera accuracy - No Do$h
It's the date of issue rather than the date of receipt that has to be proved.
speed camera accuracy - Toad, of Toad Hall.
I know that as does David.

David says that registerd post is required to prove it was sent and I disagree. (However I have no real gorunds to do so - just doesn't sound right)
--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
speed camera accuracy - Toad, of Toad Hall.
Peter not david. I knew it was out of the bible...

As is toad. ;-)
--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
speed camera accuracy - No Do$h
I'll get me coat........
speed camera accuracy - Toad, of Toad Hall.
I'll get me coat........


Just don't let it happen again!!! ;-)
--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
speed camera accuracy - Dwight Van Driver
Just some quickies Toad your on the right lines re NOIP

Beer v Davies 1958 Cannot object if NOIP arrives late if it has been sent in time.

Groome v Driscoll 1969 Offence on 4th Sept. NOPI posted following day but did not arrive until 21st Sept. Justices dismissed case as 14 day rule had not been complied with. However on Appeal Court directed a conviction.

The only way you will get away contesting NOIP is that you were not warned as stated (one not received at all)or if a NOIP arrives outside the 14 day period because it was posted/served so late i.e. the 14th day, that the NOIP could not be expected to arrive within the 14 days in the normal course of the post.

Bear in mind also could be served on Reg Keeper who may not have been the driver and if it can be shown that Plod was exercising due diligence then it has been held good service if outside the 14 days.

DVD
speed camera accuracy - Dwight Van Driver
P.S.

Service is either by:
Delivering it to him,
Addressing it to him and leaving at his last known address, Sending by either Registered Post, recorded delivery or first class post addressed to him at his last known address.

Held to be served if as above sent to last known address and returned as unddlieverd or any other reason.

Requirement deemed to have been complied with unless the contrary is proved.
(Section 1A Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988)

DVD
Speeding Help Required... - FastShow
Well, apparantly I don't need any help with the speeding part, just the resulting NIP and pending court case. :(

I received a NIP through the post a couple of days ago alleging 102mph on the A14 toward Huntingdon. I'm not convinced I was going that fast TBH, but the police seem to think I was and I guess that's all that matters.

So, I need to know the best course of action from here.

Firstly I need to know the best way of going about establishing whether or not I was going that speed; they have photographic evidence according to the NIP, so I guess I need to inspect that. Can I ask for it to be posted to me? The paperwork seems to indicate I have to head over to the police station nearest to where the incident occured, which isn't at all convenient.

Secondly, assuming the speed is correct or there's no easy way to dispute it, I need to know how to minimise any penalty. Is it worth spending money on a brief? Basically I need to avoid a ban, because if I lose my licence, I lose my job - it's as simple as that.

Now I don't really want this to turn into the rights and wrongs of speeding, if I was going 102mph I accept that was too fast and I'll accept any punishment. However, I don't feel that depriving me of my job, house and ultimately everything else is an appropriate punishment for the crime.
Speeding Help Required... - FastShow
Oh, and it was a mobile speedvan sat on a bridge, if that makes any difference to anything.
Speeding Help Required... - terryb
I'd say that unless you've got a tachograph fitted, your only hope is looking at the pictures. Still, it shouldn't take you long to get over to the police station to get them :o)

As regards the ban, I thought it was virtually automatic for 100+, even the Solicitor General got one for just 98! If you get a good brief with a smooth line in mitigation and it's a first offence, you might stand a chance but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Any chance of taking holiday while the ban's in force?

Terry
Speeding Help Required... - FastShow
Any chance of taking holiday while the ban's in force?


Assuming it's for only 14 days or thereabouts, then yeah. If it's any longer, I'm gonna struggle.
Speeding Help Required... - Alfafan {P}
FS, there's an excellent web site www.caughtspeeding.co.uk/speeding which takes you through a series of questions about you and about the offence. At the end, it gives you the likely outcome, and also the option of contacting a solicitor for some free extra advice if you need it.

HTH
Speeding Help Required... - Homme van Blanc
the webite is actually: www.caughtspeeding.co.uk/motoring/speeding
Speeding Help Required... - BrianW
"I don't feel that depriving me of my job, house and ultimately everything else is an appropriate punishment for the crime."

In the eyes of the law, it is !

What you think or feel doesn't count.

You're better off committing almost any other crime other than a motoring offence.
Speeding Help Required... - Peter D
Where there markings on the road and how many days hve lapsed between the alledge offence and the NIP Peter
Speeding Help Required... - FastShow
Where there markings on the road and how many days hve
lapsed between the alledge offence and the NIP


The NIP arrived 3 days after the offence; the police can be damned efficient when they want to be. No markings on the road 'cos it was the mobile speedvan people.
Speeding Help Required... - TrevorP
I think that you will find that under "Guide to Magistrates",

a speed of 100mph plus will incur a month's ban.

Unless under VERY exceptional mitigating circumstances.
Speeding Help Required... - Toad, of Toad Hall.
Claim to be a burglar and maybe they'll let you off?
--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
Speeding Help Required... - Peter D
I asked about the markings because there are many areas where the markings are on the road but no fixed camera. The reason for asking about markings is that the distance travelled may have got you below the nasty 100 mph marker. Best of Luck Regards

Peter
Speeding Help Required... - Dwight Van Driver
Phew naughty man, suit you Sir, filling your boots were you Sir, Phew.

Serious, at that speed, common on you know damn well you were doing it so lets get the punishment sorted. I would suspect that at that speed you will not be given a conditional offer but an appointment booked before the Magistrates for consideration of a disqualification for a period at their discretion.

However all is not lost as you may be able to plead Special Reasons to avoid the ban. This is somewhat complicated and best left to a Solicitor well versed in Traffic Law and may work if you can prove eloquently a ban would cause great hardship, loss of house, job etc. Converseley if you are successful then you may attract a larger fine which together with your Solicitors fee could be in the ouch factor.

The balls now in your Court. Was it all worth it????

DVD
Speeding Help Required... - Toad, of Toad Hall.
Serious, at that speed, common on you know damn well you
were doing it so lets get the punishment sorted.


Why do I get the feeling that if DVD cautioned you, you *never* re-offended!!!
--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
Speeding Help Required... - Dwight Van Driver
Rubber truncheon or a wet towel Toad. Never leave a mark...

DVD
Speeding Help Required... - googolplex
I'm with DVD on this in the sense that you are rather vague in your admission of actually going that fast. If I was a magistrate this would say to me that you speed as a matter of routine and that these sorts of speeds do not bother you greatly. Big punishment ensues.
How about taking the "fair cop, guv" line and pleading that this was completely out of character and you need your car for your job etc. IF there is any chance for sympathy, I would reckon on this being more likely to achieve the most lenient punishment.

Splodgeface
Speeding Help Required... - frostbite
Perhaps a bowel or bladder difficulty might elicit a sympathetic response from a magistrate? (especially if elderly)
Speeding Help Required... - smokie
As posted elsewhere, I thought it was helpful using a solicitor when I was up for 108. No denial, just presented mitigating circumstances and a letter from my employer very eloquently. Plus he was obviously known by the bench and the court people, and because I was in attendance he managed to get us seen at teh start of the day, rather than the hanging about I was expecting.

I got 2 week ban and £180 fine, no points. A few years back now. By the guidelines he said I should have been looking at much more (but then he would say that, wouldn't he!). All in all for me, it was £200 well spent.

I'm told that if they are going to ban you they will expect to see you in court. That is - if you plead by post (if you have that option), then they will hear your case, then defer sentence until you are there. Which is why I turned up - to get it over with.

Speeding Help Required... - HF
Perhaps a bowel or bladder difficulty might elicit a sympathetic response
from a magistrate? (especially if elderly)


Doesn't that depend on whether your name's Sir Alex or not? (it *was* him, wasn't it?)
HF
Speeding Help Required... - Morris Ox
It's all dead simple, FastShow.

1) Cough up. You know what you drive, you know what you did

2) If you're going to get a brief, get one known to the bench where it'll be heard. He/she knows what they'll wear, the bench won't dismiss what's said as flannel/BS

3) Best you can hope for is a reduced ban

4) Learn the lesson
Speeding Help Required... - Ken A
It's all dead simple, FastShow.
1) Cough up. You know what you drive, you know what
you did
2) If you're going to get a brief, get one known
to the bench where it'll be heard. He/she knows what they'll
wear, the bench won't dismiss what's said as flannel/BS
3) Best you can hope for is a reduced ban
4) Learn the lesson

>>

That No 4 - a tad sanctimonious, don't you think? Let him who hath not sinned cast the first stone - or something like that - springs to mind.

Speeding Help Required... - Andrew-T
Ken - perhaps; but a valid statement nevertheless.
Speeding Help Required... - smokie
SO valid it didn't really need saying...
Speeding Help Required... - Morris Ox
Sorry if it sounds sanctimonious guys but let's say I regularly come across people who nevertheless need reminding about it.

Get my drift?
Speeding Help Required... - bernie
Including off duty policemen ????????

How many get off scott free I wonder !
Speeding Help Required... - dave18
102?
*Shrug*
If you do end up in court though, the 'yes I have been stupid and accept the accusation blah blah' is certainly effective.
Worked for me when I was caught over the drink drive limit - yes it was stupid of me, and while I feel sympathetic in general if somebody gets done for speeding, maybe you should try the same line. Just accept it and maintain honesty and humbleness about it!
>>
Including off duty policemen ????????

How many get off scott free I wonder !
>>
Probably many.
Speeding Help Required... - Morris Ox
No uniforms in my part of the world.

Try another tack!
Speeding Help Required... - bernie
Care to enlighten us ?
Speeding Help Required... - Morris Ox
Think about the end result of it all. 'Nuff said now.
Speeding Help Required... - Mark (RLBS)
I'd guess a Magistrate.
Speeding Help Required... - bernie
OK mr Ox,hand on heart,have YOU ever broken the speed limit.

Speeding Help Required... - Morris Ox
Of course, but not at three figures. Even if you're a good guy the margin for error is non-existent, so stump up for a track day.
Speeding Help Required... - Morris Ox
...so I'm absolutely not a paragon of virtue.

However, I've come across so many people who've been through this and haven't picked up on why the law is there. It isn't necessarily what you did in the circumstances, it's what it might lead to.

That's what I mean by end results.

If you acknowledge what the end results might have been FastShow that means you've learned the lesson.

Speeding Help Required... - FastShow
Sorry, I've not been about for the past few days, work commitments and all that...

OK firstly, the reason I was vague about whether I was speeding or not is bacause; 1) I almost certainly _was_ speeding, I just doubt very much I was going that fast and; 2) I've already argued the toss over at a different forum and can't be bothered going through that again.

What I'm after now is just advice on what I should do to minimise the damage.

Next, I need to know what I should do with the NIP. Do I reply in writing requesting all the information I want to see (calibration certificate, photo etc...) without naming the driver? Do I name the driver as well as requesting that lot? Do I name the driver now and wait until the summons come through before I request it, or what?

That's it really - ideally I'd like to drag it out for as long as I can since I'm picking my new car up on Saturday and I'd like to have a bit of fun with that before they take my licence away.
Speeding Help Required... - Dan J
Hi FastShow

Have a look round on www.speed-trap.co.uk/

Wealth of information on here including info from a guy in a similar position to yourself. He had been speeding but after getting all photos etc it turned out the Police had overestimated by about 20mph. Thus he got slap on the wrists and 3 points instead of something nastier.

Check it out...

Dan J
Speeding Help Required... - FastShow
Next, I need to know what I should do with the
NIP. Do I reply in writing requesting all the information
I want to see (calibration certificate, photo etc...) without naming the
driver? Do I name the driver as well as requesting
that lot? Do I name the driver now and wait
until the summons come through before I request it, or what?


Anyone? Please?
Speeding Help Required... - No Do$h
Sorry FS.

IIRC (from previous threads) most forces will release the info only if you plead not guilty. I stand to be corrected on this, but I think this was repeated on the other site you've been referred to elsewhere on this thread.

I can only suggest you check your insurance for legal services cover and make yourself an appointment with a solicitor ASAP. The court is more likely to accept that you understand the seriousness of the allegation if you are professionally represented. Your brief can also advise on the pros and cons of contesting the evidence.

And no, I'm not a solicitor trying to make some more dosh for the profession!
Speeding Help Required... - FastShow
Surely if it's going to court whatever (which obviously it will), I'll be entitled to see any evidence being used against me regardless of what I plead?

I think you're right though, time to bite the bullet and pay for a brief. Any idea which court I'll be summonsed to; my local one or one near the alleged offence?

If it's one near the offence, I've no idea how the hell I'll get there if I can't drive, but I guess that's another bridge to cross when I come to it.
Speeding Help Required... - No Do$h
No, I'm afraid the view taken on evidence is that if you are pleading guilty, you don't need to see it. If you need to see it, you are questioning the charge and therefore pleading not guilty. Mind you, as this is a compulsory hearing, rather than a fixed penalty, I may be wrong.

As for location, I should imagine it will heard in a magistrates court appropriate to the location of the offence. Take plenty of change for a cab to the railway station. It may also help your case if you can show that you didn't drive to the court in appreciation of the liklihood of a ban.
Speeding Help Required... - FastShow
Hrm... how do I know whether to plead guilty or not though when I haven't seen the evidence they have against me? It could be a crayon drawing of a car with 102mph scrawled across it for all I know.

Ho hum, such is the system, I guess. Any idea where to find a decent local solicitor who'll have good experience in this sort of area?
Speeding Help Required... - No Do$h
If you are a member of the AA or RAC they will recommend one versed in motoring cases. Again, try checking your insurance company as well, they may have a list of recommended firms.
Speeding Help Required... - No Do$h
I've just been thinking back over a few points and, as it will be a compulsory hearing, you will get CPS statements etc. I was getting mixed up with Fixed Penalties.

However you approach it, good luck.
Speeding Help Required... - smokie
I got a local motoring solictor through the local Citizens Advice Bureau - they gave me a handful of numbers so I chose based on price...they were all motoring specialists
Speeding Help Required... - The Flying Dutchman
FS - first of all you should get yourself a solicitor as No Dosh suggested. If you've been wise enough to take legal cover with your insurance, this is the time to use it.

It seems to me that you would probably plead guilty to the charge if you didn't doubt the speed at which you were going was the speed the police evidence said you were (tell me if this is not correct).
So, you are not disputing you were going faster than the speed limit allowed, but you are questioning you were doing 102MPH. So, i'd say in that case you would plead not guilty to the charge and would like to see the evidence based on that, unless it is possible to view the evidence without pleading anything which to me would only seem fair - but then again I didn't write the law and don't know it that much detail.
This is all the more reason to get a solicitor with experience in the field of motoring offences who can tell you what your rights are before you respond in any way to the police.

The fact that this is going to end up in court is not a question.

good luck!

PS: I disagree with a previous comment that it would show good will to the court by taking the train to the court (especially if you would plead not guilty!) because you're expecting a ban. I'd say that is calling on a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you want my advice, I'd try to bring a friend to court who can drive you home if needed (or you can ask the solicitor ;-)
Speeding Help Required... - GRowlette
My goodness. Here we fix that on the spot by negotiation ;) no endless legal stuff.
Speeding Help Required... - No Do$h
Greeting Growlette. How were the cold beers and the views of the lake on this mornings ride into the hills? Not even remotely jealous......
Speeding Help Required... - Dwight Van Driver
FS

You recieved the NIP/advice re offence. Was there only a form to name and shame the driver? If so then complete as you say you were the driver and return. IIRC it will go something like this. Either you will get the Conditional Offer (£60 and 3 points and if so grab it with open arms) or else a summons will be sent to you to appear at the Court of the area where the offence was committed. This will depend of Mags policy in relation to prosecution at Court for a disqualification at a speed in excess of???? mph. The summons will be accompanied by what is called a statement of facts outlining the offence. Whether this will contain detailed evidence I would doubt. However there are avenues to explore on disclosure of evidence which a brief knows about.

If you are summoned then they are looking at imposing a disqualification and your presence will be necessary. Any ban will be instantaneous unless of course you immediately register an appeal. So a problem could arise if you have driven to Court and you cannot drive back home if ban imposed.

If within the NIP papers there is a conditional offer for you to accept then consider doing so as they may accept and not take Court action.

In my area speeds of in excess of the ton attract a months ban or there abouts.

As stated earlier if you are summoned then it may be prudent to engage a well versed Solitor who will test the evidence, may plead Special reasons and get you away with only a fine.

DVD
Speeding Help Required... - FastShow
Cheers DVD, that's exactly what I was after.

I'll get the NIP sent back naming me as the driver then since that's all I have the ability to do at the moment and I'll let you know what happens from here.

Cheers.
Speeding Help Required... - No Do$h
Thanks DVD. I was cobbling bits together from various threads and making a right hash of it.
Speed camera - Big Cat
Does anyone know if speed cameras monitor both sides of the road? I was travelling along a dual carriageway where there was a camera on the opposite side of the road to me, with its white lines and all. On my side, there was no camera or white lines but I could see the camera on the opposite side flash. I was doing about 55mph in a 50 mph limit. I looked in my rear view mirror and couldn't see a car on the other side so assumed it must have been zapping me. However this is a dual carriageway, can a camera cover both sides?
Speed camera - Toad, of Toad Hall.
One way only.
--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
Speed camera - Dan J
We've done this one before - nope, Gatsos can only get you from behind.

Sometimes lines are painted on both sides of the road as the police swap the camera from side to side but I'm convinced at times the markings there are to simply slow people down in both directions.

The Gatso will fire (as it fires +/- it's trigger speed) but in the UK it is not admissable evidence.

The cameras on the A556 in Cheshire, round the Mere area (for those who know it) used to fire all the time from the oncoming traffic but they seem to have sorted this now - Probably because they're fed up with having reels of unusable film!
Speed camera - smokie
There ARE cameras which get you from the front (Truvelos?) but they will usually ne on your side of a dual carriageway. I reckon you are safe.
Speed camera - Bromptonaut
Yup, lots of Truvelos here in Northants. On single carriageway roads they are regularly turned to catch traffic both ways. Don't think they can do both sides of a dual though.
Speed camera - Humpy
In Beds they are mostly Truvelos. Only a couple of bum catchers!!
Speed camera - BrianW
Two new ones going up today on the Seven Sisters Road/camden Road north London by Holloway Prison.
One each way.
Probably to see how fast the escaping prisoners are running.
;-))
Speed camera - Nsar
Apologies if this has been covered in vols 1-8, but on front firing cameras, what's the legal position re motorcycles which obviously can't be identified from the front. Is a detection device which discriminates against one part of the population legal? I feel my human rights being abused!
Speed camera - Toad, of Toad Hall.
Apologies if this has been covered in vols 1-8, but on
front firing cameras, what\'s the legal position re motorcycles which obviously
can\'t be identified from the front. Is a detection device which
discriminates against one part of the population legal? I feel my
human rights being abused!


Thre\'s been talk in MCN of compulsory front plates for bikes.

I want mine in tin sideways on the mud guard...
--
Speed camera - Peter D
Gatso and other similar cameras do not read ( Decode ) the number plate, however city charging digital camera images are read in software just as your home PC scanner does OCR, Optical Character Recognition. The Result is listed against probability of error and if this is below a certain level they are manually processed the higher scoring OCR’s are automatically checked against the data base and only those that miss matched are visited manually.

The M25 was the first motorway to have permanent Digital camera technology that utilises auto reading techniques to track wanted/untaxed vehicles. You can even have your plate read and your tax disk checked in a matter of seconds after passing certain road side camera check points.

These technologies are helping to cut road tax evasion, find stolen cars and track wanted vehicles or even wanted registered owners. Some counties are presently testing new generation camera techniques and you may see a road side mobile unit with two cameras on six foot high tripods, better check all your cars are taxed guys. They often use these in 60/70 limit type areas to ensure sufficient spacing of the vehicles so the look down angle of the camera can get a clear image of the plate. These cameras can also be used to detect incorrectly spaced characters/numbers on private registration plates., illegal fonts and illegal number plate materials. Under the “Three Strikes and your Out” some folk are going to either comply or loose there plate at their cost, OOOCH. DVLA web site defines the legal requirement for the font and the strict spacing for those characters. All plate manufacturers are supposed to be registered and the blank plate has an etched ID in it so a manufacturer of a non compliant plate can be traced.

OK enough brain dumping, take it easy out there !! Regards Peter
Speed camera - smokie
Just been on my first longish journey using my new Snooper Safety Cam detection device. And very good it was too. It's GPS based, and holds a database of all known speed cameras. It apparently even informs you which SPECS camera you are now passing - 1 of 5, last of 5 etc.

It has a setting whereby it does nothing except a visual warning of an impending safety cam if you are within the speed limit, which so far seems to suit me best. It tell you direction of travel so will only give full alert to those in your direction. However, if you have the range set high it will also throw up alerts to thos on side roads, until it has established your relative direction of travel. It also has a feature whereby the radar detection turns itslef off below 20mph, which should reduce the amount of false alerts from sliding doors.

It was more useful in my local area than I thought it would be - I already KNOW where the cameras are, but the irritating chirrup when you are speeding towards one meant that overall my driving in town was slower (not that I speed THAT much anyway in town)

What intrigued me was that the radar detector, which I mounted temporarily in the front window, detected K Band all the time the engine was running, so I had to disable radar detection. I'm going to contact their help desk, but if anyone has any idea why my engine should be giving off radar I'd be interested to know (it's an Omega, no fancy heated front windscreen etc).
The Speed Camera Thread VIII - Mark (RLBS)
Pulling the threads together

 

Value my car