Fax machines probably on the way out

Honest John Back Room » General discussion ( non motoring )
View Threaded
Tue 1 Nov 2022 18:48
Fax machines probably on the way out - Xileno

I was surprised by this article, I had no idea faxes were still used at all and even more surprised they are still for sale:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-63472371

I haven't used a fax for probably twenty years. Email has taken over.

Anyone here still use one?

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 1 Nov 2022 19:47
Fax machines probably on the way out - badbusdriver

Recently watched The Outlaws (brilliant BTW). One of the stars, perhaps surprisingly given it was filmed and set in Bristol, was the great Christopher Walken.

Anyway I watched an interview of Stephen Merchant, who was behind it (as well as starring in it), describing how he got Chris on board. This did involve using a fax machine to send him the script because the esteemed Mr Walken has no internet (or mobile phone) but does have and use a fax machine!.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 1 Nov 2022 20:26
Fax machines probably on the way out - Ethan Edwards

Fax machines out evolved by emails. Well these days your instant message apps like Cisco Jabber or MS Teams are in the process of replacing email.

I've been around long enough to recall when we used to use telex...then Fax came along. When our entire office got its first PC. Now we've just been issued with super thin laptops and a headset. Which will replace our phones and PC. Each desk having a PC Dock a monitor and that's it.

Plus we won't have an assigned desk it's all hot desking now, and hybrid working. Using this set up anyone you deal with won't know if you are in the office or working from home. Won't make a difference. Phones are now all voice over Internet protocol anyway.

The changes I've seen over 40years are immense. My father in his 45years in an office won't have seen much change at all by comparison. Where will it all lead to?

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 1 Nov 2022 22:30
Fax machines probably on the way out - bathtub tom

Is telex still going? I know there used to be separate telex exchanges and it was used by the military and other specific uses.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 1 Nov 2022 23:02
Fax machines probably on the way out - Adampr

They used telex in the London Stock Exchange when I worked there in 1993. In fact, there weren't any computers and everything (that wasn't on telex) was done by hand.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 2 Nov 2022 09:19
Fax machines probably on the way out - bathtub tom

Is telex still going? I know there used to be separate telex exchanges and it was used by the military and other specific uses.

Should've googled it myself, from wiki: British Telecom stopped offering the telex service to new customers in 2004 and discontinued the service in 2008

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 2 Nov 2022 09:26
Fax machines probably on the way out - Engineer Andy

I was surprised by this article, I had no idea faxes were still used at all and even more surprised they are still for sale:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-63472371

I haven't used a fax for probably twenty years. Email has taken over.

Anyone here still use one?

I've *technically* got one - its a function of my 'multi-function device' (Canon MAXIFY MB5350) which I really bought as a decent home injet printer and double-sided scanner and photocopier. It just so happened to have a fax function, not that I wanted or have used it.

Faxes can be a useful tool in the contruction industry as a quick and easy way of showing a site office what you want in graphical form in short order. Literally write/mark up on a piece of paper, pop it in, send it over, print instantly at the other end.

Handy for the (often) less than tech savvy person at the other end or who has a slow interweb connection and/or has little time to be on a PC. All you need to communicate an inbtent via a sketch is the fax, a pen and a piece of paper.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 2 Nov 2022 10:35
Fax machines probably on the way out - Bromptonaut

Anyone here still use one?

Have not used one since I left the Civil Service in 2013. For a while in the noughties it was still quite well used as some members of the Quango we supported didn't have internet at home. In the last few years it was hardly used at all.

One problem we had was that IT would not supply desktop scanners. Offices had to pay £££ for a 'Multi Function Device' which also did copying etc. Instead we got dedicated phone numbers allowing us to fax to our desktop.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 2 Nov 2022 11:43
Fax machines probably on the way out - Engineer Andy

MFD photocopiers are very common these days, especially as most firms I've worked for tend to lease theirs and get them upgraded every so often as part of the contract (including maintenance), rather like TVs used to be decades ago.

The good thing about them is that they can, as you say, scan and send directly to an email address or (as my home one can) any directory on my PC as an image or pdf file, as well as fax it directly to another machine.

It was handy in the construction industry because opertives can be given a fax paper and stick / pin it to a wall to use, given using mobile phones, tablets or laptops in works areas isn't a practical or safe idea in many circumstances.

I suspect in other walks of life the fax's benefits have been made moot by such devices as well as email and phone apps for ease of use, especially in the office environment where screen sizes and internet bandwidth is so much better than 20 years ago.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 2 Nov 2022 14:35
Fax machines probably on the way out - Andrew-T

I had an idea that faxes are still used in parts of the NHS ?

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 2 Nov 2022 14:51
Fax machines probably on the way out - Bromptonaut

I had an idea that faxes are still used in parts of the NHS ?

They certainly were until recently, basically they were part of a system that worked.

IIRC when the then Health Secreatry (possibly Hunt) heard about this he promptly banned the acquisition of new machines and ordered the phase out of those in use.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 2 Nov 2022 15:44
Fax machines probably on the way out - Engineer Andy

I had an idea that faxes are still used in parts of the NHS ?

They certainly were until recently, basically they were part of a system that worked.

IIRC when the then Health Secreatry (possibly Hunt) heard about this he promptly banned the acquisition of new machines and ordered the phase out of those in use.

To be fair, your first comment is just an opinion, not fact. I suspect that it was because:

a) the sheer amount of paperwork in general, and thus storage needed, was getting out of control and an expensive use of space.

b) if done correctly, a paperless system would be better - greater accuracy, and hopefully information wouldn't go missing. If. I know personally of many paper records in many large organisations that disappeared into the aether when I worked asn an engineer.

The problem, IMHO, as is so often the case in large organisations, is that digitising previously paper only records systems requires good quality management to be able to find what works, is good value for money and that can be implemented with as little disruption as possible.

What 'worked' was likely 30 years ago, before computer storage capacities were really high, and when the amount of patient data and treatments was much lower. I'd be surprised if any other industrialised Western nation is still using faxes in their health services, especially where MFDs are so common.

They were used (and occasionally still are, on some building sites) in the Construction Industry because the info (hand sketches, etc) on them was needed immediately and often for temporary use in conditions not suited to computers, high speed interent, etc.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 2 Nov 2022 17:31
Fax machines probably on the way out - Andrew-T

I am wondering how a completely 'paperless' system might work in the NHS. Anyone becoming an in-patient - and probably an out-patient also - is accompanied with a file of notes which are referred to by most staff who deal with that patient. My mind boggles at digitising all that, tho I can see the attraction of putting it 'on-line'. That may account for some of the horrendous failed projects we have all heard about.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 3 Nov 2022 12:00
Fax machines probably on the way out - Engineer Andy

I am wondering how a completely 'paperless' system might work in the NHS. Anyone becoming an in-patient - and probably an out-patient also - is accompanied with a file of notes which are referred to by most staff who deal with that patient. My mind boggles at digitising all that, tho I can see the attraction of putting it 'on-line'. That may account for some of the horrendous failed projects we have all heard about.

The problem is that on the other hand, paper records can and easily do go missing, and not just NHS records. About 20-odd years ago, the company I was working for had a large contract with a certain 'telephone operator' who was in the process of sorting out and centralising their huge amounts of paper records of building services equipment for their huge number of buildings.

Most of it was unreferenced all over the place, and thus trying to determine what equipment was where, its exact age, maintenance record and manuals was almost impossible. Those that were found were then supposed to be catalogued, organised, and then sent to a 'new' (likely just a redesignated) central storage facility in Coventry before they eventually would be scanned to keep as a digital copy.

Needless to say, (apparently) a large percentage of the alread patchy amount of information was 'lost' by the time it reached the central storage facility. These weren't copies, but originals that had no copies made. They are probably somewhere, just that no-one knows where to find it. I had visions of the 'Indiana Jones' storage facility.

It mean the company had to spend a small fortune (nice for us consultants) to re-survey buildings and equipment to a high degree every time a new project was undertaken, rather than a much smaller level combined with accessing locally-held records. Some buildings were far better run than others and kept decent records and kept copies 'just in case' they went missing during the big project.

I also remember ta similar terrible level of paper record-keeping on the Tube when I worked for one of the PPP firms a few years later, where they had to spend £Ms (just on three tube line) on similar surveys because of lost / misplaced / destroyed records.

I can see why top management would want a digitised central records system, at least of copies in case info 'went missing' locally, as it often did. Fax-born data is, to me, really only a short term information medium for instant responses where fast broadband connections are difficult.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 3 Nov 2022 18:11
Fax machines probably on the way out - Falkirk Bairn

In the 1980s I worked in an office in Central Edinburgh.

There was a small office equipment supplier - 2 partners, a fax machine and a store room,

The 2 owners made an absolute fortune selling fax machines - fax machines were in short supply but these 2 seemed to have huge quantities for sale. They were in/out all the Edinburgh Banks, Insurance companies etc in the centre of Edinburgh - they seemed to have 1 price - the RRP - no discounts needed as they had stock when other suppliers had discounts the customer waited for months.

I think they were type 3 (digital) fax machines around £3,000+ in 1980! (£15K in today's money)

2 partners had top of the range Porsches - swapped regularly for new model/colours - money to burn. I cannot recall the company name - recall from 40 years ago is very difficult for me these days

The fax machine supply shortages carried on to mid to late 80s then the prices fell rapidly as new suppliers flooded the market. Mid 90s £200+ would get you an entry level fax machine using "thermal paper" - plain paper machines were a lot dearer.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Fri 4 Nov 2022 03:52
Fax machines probably on the way out - Crickleymal

I remember going out to Iraq in 1989 to install communication equipment on an oil pipeline. The fax machines were only allowed to be type 1or 2 which meant they were very slow. Heaven knows why

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sat 5 Nov 2022 08:56
Fax machines probably on the way out - movilogo

Fax machines were obsolete as soon as email was invented. I didn't use a fax in last 20 years.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sat 5 Nov 2022 11:48
Fax machines probably on the way out - Engineer Andy

Fax machines were obsolete as soon as email was invented. I didn't use a fax in last 20 years.

I wouldn't be surprise if they aren't still used in poorer countries, especially in remote areas where mobile phones and internet (bandwidth) coverage are still very poor. I suspect there are still many rural parts of the UK where this is true, though to a lesser extent.

They still have their uses, though admitedly most (as you say) are now covered by email, or, to some extent, video conferencing.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sat 5 Nov 2022 15:39
Fax machines probably on the way out - misar

Fax machines were obsolete as soon as email was invented. I didn't use a fax in last 20 years.

The advantage of an analogue fax machine is the direct temporary (telephone) link between the sending and receiving devices. Far more secure than normal email which sits on various servers, making unauthorised reading much easier.

That is why lawyers, banks, utilities, etc (but not EON) tend to send email reminders to download documents such as statements from a secure website rather than emailing to you as attachments. If I am forced to email any sort of confidential document I encrypt it and SMS the password to the recipient's phone.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 6 Nov 2022 15:39
Fax machines probably on the way out - defluniclo

Fax machines have been around for a long time, but it seems like their days may be numbered. With the advent of high-speed Internet and the rise of digital document formats, fax machines are increasingly being seen as outdated technology. In fact, many businesses now rely purely on email or online fax services to send and receive documents. While fax machines may be on the way out, they still have some advantages over digital alternatives. For one thing, faxes can be sent and received without an Internet connection. Additionally, some people find it easier to scan and send a document as a fax than to navigate the various settings of an email attachment. In any case, it seems likely that fax machines will eventually become obsolete as more businesses switch to digital communication methods.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 6 Nov 2022 22:11
Fax machines probably on the way out - focussed

The legal profession still uses them. A faxed document with a signature is acceptable in a court of law, an emailed signed document is not.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Mon 7 Nov 2022 14:37
Fax machines probably on the way out - Engineer Andy

The legal profession still uses them. A faxed document with a signature is acceptable in a court of law, an emailed signed document is not.

The property manager for my housing development confirmed this to me the other day - though we as resident directors will allow non-paper 'documents' from home owners in some circumstances, at least as proof of intent.

I suppose the problem is the signature, though I would've thought that a pdf of a phyiscal document scanned is essentially the same as a fax, except that it would not be sent directly from one fax machine to another but the email via a third party server, which I suppose *could* alter it in theory.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Mon 7 Nov 2022 16:10
Fax machines probably on the way out - focussed

The protocol is that unlike email, a faxed document is extremely difficult to intercept or alter, whereas an email gets bounced around from server to server and can be blocked, copied, edited and resent.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 8 Nov 2022 06:23
Fax machines probably on the way out - Bolt

I suppose the problem is the signature,

You can get electronic signature software which once the signature is written (by pc mouse or tablet pen) its locked by encryption and cannot be altered, an insurance co I used uses this method and is quicker than going to, or waiting for a letter to sign..

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Mon 7 Nov 2022 18:05
Fax machines probably on the way out - Adampr

The legal profession still uses them. A faxed document with a signature is acceptable in a court of law, an emailed signed document is not.

This isn't correct. Emails are absolutely legal documents. An awful lot of documents are now electronically signed and are every bit as valid as faxes and hard copies.

Many law firms state that they don't accept notice by email. That's not because it's not legal, it's just because that's their policy.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Mon 7 Nov 2022 20:18
Fax machines probably on the way out - Ethan Edwards

I'll second that. Email sent electronically signed pdf documents are a thing. Use them where I work.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 8 Nov 2022 14:03
Fax machines probably on the way out - Engineer Andy

I'll second that. Email sent electronically signed pdf documents are a thing. Use them where I work.

It may be 'a thing', but are they legal docemnts? As I said, my development's property manager believes not, even though, like you, we do use them in some respects. There could be a large difference between what's used in practice and what is a legal document.

I thought that the law had been updated a few years ago to account for such things, but it may not have been, or at least for certain legal documentation. It would be nice to definitively know one way or the other, otherwise hard copies or faxed ones may still need to be used where signatures are required.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 10 Nov 2022 00:25
Fax machines probably on the way out - focussed

The legal profession still uses them. A faxed document with a signature is acceptable in a court of law, an emailed signed document is not.

This isn't correct. Emails are absolutely legal documents. An awful lot of documents are now electronically signed and are every bit as valid as faxes and hard copies.

Many law firms state that they don't accept notice by email. That's not because it's not legal, it's just because that's their policy.

Other documents in legal proceedings must also be served on other parties, such as:

  • expert reports
  • Part 18 requests
  • witness statements and affidavits
  • application notices, and draft orders
  • orders made by the court, including:
    • case management directions
    • orders for interim payments
    • injunctions
    • notices of hearings

The safest way to serve documents is by:

  • first class mail, with recorded next-day delivery, or
  • by fax – a fax machine produces transmission receipts, showing the time of day, and the number it was sent to
Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 10 Nov 2022 01:38
Fax machines probably on the way out - Crickleymal

Ive just bought a reconditioned laptop with windows 10 on it and there is still a Windows fax and scan program. Of course I have to plug the laptop into a phone line which may be interesting but it is still available.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 10 Nov 2022 06:14
Fax machines probably on the way out - Bolt

Ive just bought a reconditioned laptop with windows 10 on it and there is still a Windows fax and scan program. Of course I have to plug the laptop into a phone line which may be interesting but it is still available.

I don`t think fax machines are going anywhere soon as they are still being used/sold in most all in one printers, though the transmission is changing to VOIP, voice over internet protocol and can transmit over the internet.

I think we have more chance of the Landline being removed as that is planned for 2025 iirc, and machines have improved speed of transmission and picture quality, I gather those with landline on its own will get fibre and phones will carry on through fibre ie voip

someone I know that works for phone company said they intend to remove copper cable late 2000s

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 10 Nov 2022 15:19
Fax machines probably on the way out - Andrew-T

<< remove copper cable late 2000s >>

Late 2000s ? How late ?

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 10 Nov 2022 17:21
Fax machines probably on the way out - bathtub tom

<< remove copper cable late 2000s >>

Late 2000s ? How late ?

I think he may mean "late 2020s", before the the p****s grab it,

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 10 Nov 2022 18:18
Fax machines probably on the way out - Bolt

<< remove copper cable late 2000s >>

Late 2000s ? How late ?

I think he may mean "late 2020s", before the the p****s grab it,

Yes, sorry I meant by 2030 assuming they don`t change there minds as I gather the internet/voip being data packets could cause problems ie data missing during transmission unless they sort it.?

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 10 Nov 2022 18:33
Fax machines probably on the way out - misar

<< remove copper cable late 2000s >>

Late 2000s ? How late ?

I think he may mean "late 2020s", before the the p****s grab it,

Yes, sorry I meant by 2030 assuming they don`t change there minds

They may well stop analogue calls (and hence conventional fax machines) by 2030 but I doubt we will see every bit of copper cable removed from the UK system by then.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 10 Nov 2022 21:32
Fax machines probably on the way out - alan1302

<< remove copper cable late 2000s >>

Late 2000s ? How late ?

I think he may mean "late 2020s", before the the p****s grab it,

Yes, sorry I meant by 2030 assuming they don`t change there minds as I gather the internet/voip being data packets could cause problems ie data missing during transmission unless they sort it.?

VOIP is a mature technology now - no reason to think there will be any issues with it.

The main problem is people with old landline phones that won't work any longer.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 10 Nov 2022 22:27
Fax machines probably on the way out - bathtub tom

The main problem is people with old landline phones that won't work any longer.

I understand BT are dealing with that problem - although I don't know how.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Fri 11 Nov 2022 06:27
Fax machines probably on the way out - Bolt

The main problem is people with old landline phones that won't work any longer.

I understand BT are dealing with that problem - although I don't know how.

Moving landline phones to digital technology: what you need to know - Ofcom

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Fri 11 Nov 2022 13:06
Fax machines probably on the way out - alan1302

The main problem is people with old landline phones that won't work any longer.

I understand BT are dealing with that problem - although I don't know how.

BT are struggling with it as well:

www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/uk-news/bt-landline-p...1

Reply | Report as offensive | Link