June 2005

oilman

I read on many forums about 0w and 5w oils being too thin. I will try to explain it without getting over technical and we'll go from there.

0w-40, 5w-40, 10w-40 and 15w-40 are all the same thickness (14cst) at 100degC.

Centistokes (cst) is the measure of a fluid's resistance to flow (viscosity). It is calculated in terms of the time required for a standard quantity of fluid at a certain temperature to flow through a standard orifice. The higher the value, the more viscous the fluid.

As viscosity varies with temperature, the value is meaningless unless accompanied by the temperature at which it is measured. In the case of oils, viscosity is generally reported in centistokes (cst) and usually measured at 40degC and 100degC.

So, all oils that end in 40 (sae 40) are around 14cst thickness at 100degC.

This applies to all oils that end in the same number, all oils that end in 50 (sae 50) are around 18.5cst at 100degC and all oils that end in 60 (sae 60) are around 24cst at 100degC.

With me so far?

Great!

Now, ALL oils are thicker when cold. Confused? It's true and here is a table to illustrate this.

SAE 40 (straight 40)

Temp degC.........................Viscosity (thickness)


0..........................................2579cst
20..........................................473cst
40..........................................135cst
60..........................................52.2cs t
100........................................ 14cst
120.........................................8.8cst

As you will see, there is penty of viscosity at 0degC, in fact many times more than at 100degC and this is the problem especially in cold weather, can the oil flow quick enough to protect vital engine parts at start up. Not really!

So, given that an sae 40 is 14cst at 100degC which is adequate viscosity to protect the engine, and much thicker when cold, how can a 0w oil be too thin?

Well, it can't is the truth.

The clever part (thanks to synthetics) is that thin base oils can be used so that start up viscosity (on say a 5w-40 at 0degC) is reduced to around 800cst and this obviously gives much better flow than a monograde sae 40 (2579cst as quoted above).

So, how does this happen, well as explained at the beginning, it's all about temperature, yes a thin base oil is still thicker when cold than at 100degC but the clever stuff (due to synthetics again) is that the chemists are able to build these oils out of molecules that do not thin to less than 14cst at 100degC!

What are the parameters for our recommendations?

Well, we always talk about good cold start protection, by this we mean flow so a 5w will flow better than a 10w and so on. This is why we recommend 5w or 10w as the thickest you want to use except in exceptional circumstances. Flow is critical to protect the engine from wear!

We also talk about oil temps, mods and what the car is used for. This is related to the second number xw-(XX) as there may be issues with oil temperatures causing the oil to be too thin and therefore the possibility of metal to metal contact.

This is difficult to explain but, if for example your oil temp does not exceed 120degC at any time then a good "shear stable" sae 40 is perfectly capable of giving protection.

"Shear stability" is important here because if the oil shears it thins and that's not good!

However, if you are seeing temperatures in excess of 120degC due to mods and track use etc then there is a strong argument to using an sae 50 as it will have more viscosity at these excessive temperatures.

There are trade offs here. Thicker oils cause more friction and therefore more heat and they waste power and affect fuel consumption so it's always best to use the thinnest oil (i.e. second number) that you can get away with and still maintain oil pressure.

There is more but this post is too long already so lets keep it to basics.

Cheers
Simon

Read more

Cliff Pope

Ah, got it now. Sorry, and thanks.
So the basic point is, higher second numbers (40, 50 etc) do mean a thicker oil, but the characteristics are modified by the first number (5, 10, etc) ?
Interesting from your table that the gap in viscosities between 40 and 50 grades narrows as the temperature rises. It looks as if they might be virtually the same at 140degrees.
As a matter of interest, what is a typical engine oil operating temperature? I assume greater than 100, to boil off water condensation?

The Ring

Hi all,

Opinions please, just turned 25 and looking around for my next car and narrowed it down to these two. Audi is the sensible car, plenty of miles and all very economicial around town too, BMW is the car that ive always wanted especially the Sports version, but i know even with the huge tank it isnt going to be as economical as the Audi locally. Which one would you choose, go with the heart (BMW) or head (Audi)?

Thanks Read more

MichaelR

525d without a doubt.

Forum sat navs
sarah c

Hi can anyone tell me if there is a sat nav system that has maps for eastern europe.
Read more

Altea Ego

www.pocketgpsworld.com/modules.php?name=Forums&fil...s

Might not be available yet, Mapping of Eastern Europe is ( for obvious reasons) slow to get digitised in the West for commercial & home use.

(in fact the Amercians had digitised GPS maps of Eastern Europe, while the Warsaw pact did not!)

GreatestDancer

I've subscribed to auctionview and have found I have the option of 'tracking' certain cars that go up for sale. What does this option actually do?

I was hoping it could then tell me the price that the car sold for after the auction is over but can't seem to find this information? Is there any other way of finding this out except for hoping HJ's auction reports cover the car I want?

Cheers
Richard Read more

expat

Is this what you are after:
www.smag.co.uk/guide.aspx

ShereKhan

I've just been to Aldi and seen a Sat Nav with GPS for £229.
On the advert picture it states that its a Medion product powered by Samsung and it has a 256Mb MMC card.

Its not the PDA type they have offered in the past. It looks like something you can hold in your hand or stick to the windscreen.

Is this good value? Or am I wasting my time?

uk.aldi.com/special_buys/product_231.html {Link added by DD}

--
306 2.0 SE Cabriolet Read more

Altea Ego

And buzbee the one you are talking at Halfords about is a pocket PC device again made by MIO.

Chad.R


A post on the technical matters forum got me wondering ...

Is a semi-synthetic oil at the top end of the quality spectrum (assuming there is such a thing), better* than a fully synthetic oil at the lower end, or is fully-synth oil ALWAYS going to be better than semi-synth?

I suppose in other words, is there an overlap in the quality spectrums of the two or not?

* I'm not sure quite how you'd define "better"(?) - but leave that up to you. Read more

Roger Jones

Depends partly on the age of your car, I suppose. Fully synthetic is unlikely to be the best for an older car that has always been lubricated with mineral oil.

As for overlaps in the quality spectrum, I guess that's distinctly possible, but I wonder whether any comparative evidence exists to prove it one way or the other.

That apart, I believe it is commonly thought that fully is better than semi is better than mineral. However, there is at least one school of thought that considers semi to be no better than mineral and therefore a waste of money. I was convinced by the arguments and evidence supporting that view, so I use mineral in my older cars (both have always been on mineral) and fully in the newer ones (both have been on fully since about 20k).

Chris Longhurst's Oil Bible is is a good place to start looking into these issues:

tinyurl.com/e3ei

And this one may offer a different perspective:

lubricants.s5.com/

local yokel

My understanding is that traders should make it clear from an ad. that they are in the trade, and not pose as private individuals.

I've been watching out for a Toyota Avensis, and spotted one. Selelr gave reason for sale "wife found it too big" (no jokes, please), and so he is putting it straight back on the market. Said he's a private indiv., so no warranty.

I spotted some trade plates in the pics - thought odd. Then looked through his history, turns out he's bought the car a few days back, and is using the same pics! He's also bought two other Avensis in the last month or so, suggesting he's trading.

Apart from avoiding this guy, what else can I do to make sure that a private sale on Ebay really is a private sale - I guess the only way is to check the V5 and see that they have owned it for a realistic time? Read more

Mapmaker

>>Without getting too technical..

perhaps best expressed as 'if you think you are trading, then you are,' and 'if you are coming up with excuses as to why you are not trading, then you probably are too.'


It is perfectly possible that the local trading standards people will consider that you are trading & impose appropriate sanctions upon you... whilst the Inland Revenue will not accept that the loss you are making on your hobby is a loss that may be offset against taxable income.

Simon Collier

Hi,

A friend of mine has just bought a '99 V Citroen Xsara 1.4i Forte with (I think) 68,000 miles on it. He collected the car on Saturday (with a 1 year warranty) from deleted. This is his first car. I received the following email this morning.

"On cold, the engine starts and no problem. Around 60 miles onward, the problem starts. The engine start giving problem like when we driven uphill road on motorway, the car speed reduced from 70 to 50 on full power. I keep hold to full power, but no improvement. As soon as downhill road reach, the car picked-up the speed, but its not looking good and I realized that the car not doing well.

Around 80 miles I have to take exit to reach my destination. Then the real problem myself, Mohan and my wife felt. The car start shaking even the car stopped fully, handbrake on with neutral gear. I find the better place to stop the car and open the brunet. I saw the engine shake and vibrate too much. We continue with this problem and spend few hours with my friend house.

When we return to home, the engine was cold and again without any problem we driven around 60 miles. After the same problem comes and the car start shaking even the car stopped fully, handbrake on with neutral gear. Some time the shake goes off if I raised little power when the car stopped fully. But I can feel the difference about change the gear and pick-up. Its totally nightmare."

Sounds pretty major. Does he have to try and get it fixed under the warranty, or is he within his rights to take it back to the dealer and ask for his money back? The car clearly isn't 'fit for purpose' in it's current condition.

What advice should I give?

{where he bought it from is irrelevant to your question. DD} Read more

Ben79

I had a similar problem on my Xsara 1.4. I guess you need a new coil and an ECU software update. It should take a Cit dealer an hour.

The 1.4 is a good old honest engine and generally reliable. I know DD deleted the name of the garage, but was it a Citroen main dealer?

IKM

The exhaust emissions warning lamp has occasionally stayed illuminated for a full day's driving on my 6 month old Seat Arosa 1.0. The car drives just as well as before. Does anyone know what exactly the waraning lamp means and is a visit to the dealer service department really urgently required as stated in the manual. Read more

Peter D

Yes it comes on to tell you something is wrong. Usually the Emmisions are out os spec may be due to a failed lamda sensor or the like. With the like on the car may be running in limp home mode. To continue useing thcar in this state may shorted the life of th Cat may be out side the warrantee period. so go it checked out. I'm surprosed you had to ask. Regards Peter

TMax

After going through deep water some 2' deep during last weeks heavy showers the engine on my 'Y' reg mondeo Tddi became very lumpy and started emitting loads of blue smoke out of the exhaust. This smoothed out after a couple of minutes.
I managed to nurse the car home on what I suspect was 'Limp home mode' as there was no power or any turbo boost.
After drying out the air filter I started the car the next morning to find it very lumpy with more blue smoke. This smoothed out after a minute or so and a test drive revealed that I had full power and tubo boost back again.
The car runs fine now but it is still lumpy on a cold start with loads of blue smoke.
There is no evidence of a cracked head or dodgy gasket in the water or oil.
Could it be that I have maybe bent a con rod or just wiped out a glow plug. Any ideas would be welcome. Read more