My understanding is that traders should make it clear from an ad. that they are in the trade, and not pose as private individuals.
I've been watching out for a Toyota Avensis, and spotted one. Selelr gave reason for sale "wife found it too big" (no jokes, please), and so he is putting it straight back on the market. Said he's a private indiv., so no warranty.
I spotted some trade plates in the pics - thought odd. Then looked through his history, turns out he's bought the car a few days back, and is using the same pics! He's also bought two other Avensis in the last month or so, suggesting he's trading.
Apart from avoiding this guy, what else can I do to make sure that a private sale on Ebay really is a private sale - I guess the only way is to check the V5 and see that they have owned it for a realistic time?
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If I had to hazard a guess I would think that auction rules apply in ebay transactions meaning no sale of goods act and no comebacks or warranty. The big car auctions get away with selling cars this way and one would think that as Ebay is an advertised auction the same would apply.
I could be very wrong of course, but the best way forward is to treat Ebay and everything on it as an auction (well that is what it says on the tin), buy as you see it and no warrantee of any sort.
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eBay is NOT an auction.
Its legal status is very unclear - it has a bunch of rules & regs which some people will quote as if they are law, but they're not.
If you're buying from a trader over the internet then the Distance Selling Regs should apply, but enforcing these on an eBay trader might involve going to court.
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It certainly is not an auction if one purchases using th "Buy it now" facility. Then it is just the same as a classified ad in the paper, in that respect.
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I tell you somethng unconventional on ebay! There is a Ford dealer in the Bristol area that is selling there cars on ebay with the 'Buy it now' process'.
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Its not what you drive, its how you drive it! :-)
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eBay is NOT an auction. Its legal status is very unclear - it has a bunch of rules & regs which some people will quote as if they are law, but they're not. If you're buying from a trader over the internet then the Distance Selling Regs should apply, but enforcing these on an eBay trader might involve going to court.
I believe Bill Payer is correct. And eBay have consistently avoided calling themselves an auction house (they don't want to go there as they would become legally liable for descriptions etc). There are some possible legal outcomes and none have been tested in court yet as far as I know. If eBay really were an auction then there would have been lots of eBay sellers taking individuals to court for non-payment.
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> Apart from avoiding this guy, what else can I do to make sure
> that a private sale on Ebay really is a private sale - I guess
> the only way is to check the V5 and see that they have owned it
> for a realistic time?
Well, technically it is a private sale. Unless the guy has dealership or trade status it's a private sale. He bought it cheap, sold it at profit, nothing wrong with the actual process itself, except of course lying in description. But so does everyone else when selling car. What true and genuine reason for sale could buyer possibly find sufficient and ensuring enough?
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Further to that, why is it the buyer's business why I am selling the car?. I wonder how many buyers have walked away from a purchase because the seller didn't have a genuine enough reason to be selling.
"There is no way I am having that car, the cheek of him to be selling a car simply because he doesn't want it anymore. I would much rather buy from a *proper* seller who got a company car or sommat else"
8-)
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My concern would be that since they have misrepresented their reasons for selling, they have also probably misrepresented the condition of the car. I had a similar case when I wanted a camera lens described as 'mint'. A quick search found that the seller had bought it a month earlier on ebay from someone who described it as showing signs of light use. Evidently it has improved with age.
Anyway, I can't understand buying a car on ebay with no pre-purchase inspection. It sounds well dodgy to me. James May bought a Mini on ebay, and 'cos it was not as described, negotiated a 'rebate' after the auction had ended. I wonder how many sellers would go along with that?
Leif
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My concern would be that since they have misrepresented their reasons for selling, they have also probably misrepresented the condition of the car. Anyway, I can't understand buying a car on ebay with no pre-purchase inspection. It sounds well dodgy to me. James May bought a Mini on ebay, and 'cos it was not as described, negotiated a 'rebate' after the auction had ended. I wonder how many sellers would go along with that?
I think blatant lying (which that seller seemed to be) would certainly put a lot of people off (if they realised).
On the second point, if the item is not accurately described then you're entitled to walk away. Of course, faced with a buyer who is about to walk, many people would agree a discount. If you've (for some bonkers reason) paid up front, then getting some/all of your money back could be tricky.
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To be honest, you are missing the point...
There is a big difference between a trader masquerading as a private seller, and a Private seller who buys and sells the odd car as a money-making hobby.
As long as the car is good and clean both phsically and administratively, why shouldn't a private individual buy a bargain and sell-on for a profit ??
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>>There is a big difference between a trader masquerading as a private seller, and a Private seller who buys and sells the odd car as a money-making hobby
What difference would that be ?
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> What difference would that be ?
About the same as between second hand Mayfair owner posing as licensed black cabbie and a chap who charters neighbours in his car to airport and back few times a year for a bit of pocket money.
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Not really since both of those examples are of illegal behaviour.
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The other thing is that whilst they're both illegal, if the person being given a lift is injured in an accident, the insurer will pay out (even in the unlikely event of driving for hire or reward - they'll just have a cause of action against the illegal driver). It'd be too tenuous for me to claim that not being a professional driver could cause an accident, so I'll overlook that.
However, if the car turns out to be faulty, the undeclared trader will almost certainly not have the resources to put the problem right and will most likely deny any legal liability. Yes, you could sue, but that's very different from having the backing of an insurance company who is used to having claims and in any case could seek to recover the money from the person with primary liability.
I'm sorry but I'm with Mark on this one - if you buy and sell with the intention of making a profit (rather than buying a car because it's cheap then deciding to move on to another one for whatever reason) - you're a trader. To my mind the line should be drawn when you'd be liable for income tax if the Inland Revenue found out about the transaction and it would definitely apply in theory if you're trading a car like this.
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>>when you'd be liable for income tax if the Inland Revenue found out about the transaction
Which broadly speaking happens when you think it does. If you're getting all defensive and coming up with excuses as to why, possibly, you shouldn't have to pay tax, then you should be telling the Inland Revenue. (Otherwise known as the badges of trade, but I don't think that the Royal Commission put it quite like I have just put it!)
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Many years ago I was told that the Inland Revenue used to go through the local papers and log the telephone numbers and type of car for sale. If they found the same telephone number with 4 different cars for sale within a year then they would assume the person was a trader and start an investigation. They used to catch out quite a number of "private" traders for failing to declare profits from sales as income. Whether they still do this today with so many ways of selling cars I do not know.
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>>There is a big difference between a trader masquerading as a private seller, and a Private seller who buys and sells the odd car as a money-making hobby What difference would that be ?
>>
Official motor traders have access to a HUGE range of facilities which help to make them a lot more money on each car than a private individual. For example VAT registration, access to 'Trade Only' car purchases, trade costs for the repair of minor damage on cars and valeting etc, trade costs for servicing/mechanical repairs and so on.
'Not to mention detailed knowledge of some unscrupulous tricks of the trade'.
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I certainly see the views of both Mark and David here.
What happens, though, if I, as a bit of an innocent, go and buy a car off Ebay? I'm not going to do it because I don't trust it, but if I did, what would be my comebacks?
HF
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Surely you are essentially making a contract with the seller - an invitation to treat has been issued, the buyer has made an offer and the seller has accepted it - therefore the Sale of Goods Act 1979 comes into force.
Therefore if the goods are not as described (within reason), taking into account consideration of the seller's expertise, the buyer has the right to reject the goods and refuse payment. If payment has already been made, then the buyer has the right to claim damages against the seller.
This is how it appears to be, using my knowledge from a Business Law uni module i did an exam for yesterday!
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>therefore the Sale of Goods Act 1979 comes into force.
Only if the vendor is acting in the course of business.
So if a private vendor you have no recourse in the event of a duff car, but with a trader you are able to report him to trading standards, VAT, Taxman (that's the same person nowadays) etc. etc.
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Be very clear about the object of the exercise, which is to buy a normal straight car for your use. You are not in the business of all the intricacies of the law etc (unless they affect you), or whether he is making a profit and dealing etc. You want a 'normal' car from a 'normal' family. These exist. It might need some repairs (all cars do), but that is why it is secondhand not new, and why you are not standing in front of a Toyota dealer.
My golden rules for protection are...
I am telephoning THE car. If he says which car? finish.
Is the car log book registered at the DVLA in your name?
Is the car at the address?
Do you live at that address?
Is the log book registered at that address.
If no, it is not normal. Why stay interested when there are 2 million secondhand cars for sale. Answer car fever. You want this car, because you want this car. Logic has gone out of the window, and you can't be reconciled. You would tell your kids this. Abide by that advice.
I know, when ever I have broken these rules, I have made a mistake.
I am no saint as the passion so easily takes over. Stay logical and stay heathly.
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Well as far as I know the law doesn't recognise buying and selling for the sole purpose of profit as a hobby. I've seen some terrible reasons given for selling on E-Bay by people who are obviously dealers pretending to be private advertisers. I would imagine it is the responsibility of E-Bay to make sure that adverts from those who are trading are identifiable as trade ads. That was certainly the case when I worked for LOOT. We had auctions as well, but Trading Standards still expected us to stop trade advertisers placing private ads.
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If "law doesn't recognise buying and selling for the sole purpose of profit as a hobby" then everyone on eBay can be labeled as a trader. In terms of items of more than £10 in value I'm sure you'll find vast majority of the sellers actually expect to turn profit. Not only that - once sellers Paypal account moves £1500 from other people seller's details are automatically reported to Inland Revenue.
But back to important things there is a huge difference between a trader trying to escape taxes and liabilities by moving cars posing as private seller and private entity trading used cars back to private hands. To the latter the rules of trade don't apply. He buys them privately and sells them privately. In that his buying and selling it day later is no different in terms of liability to you, as a buyer than if he bought it last year. Yes, it's a grey area of the system, yes the Inland Revenue might or might not ask that guy for taxes. But as far as the sale goes, how can you expect such seller to provide you with warranties, covers and legal standpoint of a used car dealership?
I'm not sure which part of it some people in this thread don't understand and why is it so confusing for you.
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I'm the OP, BTW.
Ebay is no different to any other classified ads system - some are disposing of unwanted items, and others are buying , and hoping to sell on at a profit. I've sold off old model trains on Ebay that I've owned since I was 10 - not exactly trading! I expect that the IR has a view on the number of cars one could reasonably own and sell in a given period before it is deemed to be a trading activity. I'd guess 4 or more in year might constitute trading.
Once a person is trading, they have responsibilities. Some are obvious, such as descriptions - others may be legally imposed upon them. If I had the time I'd look into it further - but what is clear id that some vehicles on Ebay are clearly sold by commercial organisations who are totally up front about the nature of their business, whilst others have a range of "stories" that may or may not be true. Not having the V5 in their own name, and not having owned the vehicle for very long is a clear giveaway. The guy I was looking into had bought the vehicle off Ebay, and was even using the same pics. as the original, commercial, vendor!
I don't really care if a guy is selling 5 Fiestas a week, making £300 on each, or one Aston a month, and making £2,500 on it - a trader is still a trader, and has to bear the costs of backing up his product - and if the guy is just starting out and doing it P/T then he is still a trader.
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E Bay does have a system for reimbursing (or not) the buyer in the event of a "goods description" dispute provided the transaction was paid for using it's paypal system. I went through this dispute reolution process two months ago (not for a car) and lost. Had to reimburse the buyer (or rather my paypal account was debited and his credited).
They don't address the "dealer" issue though.
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Hi Von, well I just expect people to tell the truth and it doesn't seem fair on the guy who is working hard and paying all the costs that go with being a trader and paying trade advertising rates as well.
Anyway here's a brief outline from Trading Standards position: "A car trader is a person who regularly buys and sells cars for purposes other than their own personal use. They do not have to own a company or trade from a forecourt or garage - in fact any person who regularly sells cars through classified advertisements in a newspaper or magazine (or even through a card placed in a newsagent's window) may be classed as a car 'trader' in law"
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In the interests of fairness I think i should express the opinion that this sellers eBay record is not conclusive enough to make him guilty of being a trader masquerading as private.
He has indeed bought two Avensi saloons recently. But he states this in the add for the estate. Also neither of the saloons have been put up for sale on eBay.
It is therefore conceivable that he is a two-car family, both cars being Avensis saloons. The estate could be an impulse purchase which he now regrets (it might well be too big for his wife - my wife WILL NOT drive my Rover for this reason).
It could be regarded as "naughty" to use the original sellers pics (the original seller could complain about this - it's against eBay rules), but maybe he hasn't got a digital camera (he's done much more buying than selling)?
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I had an email dialogue with the Avensis estate seller, and we were going fine until I pointed out some discrepancies in his story, at which point he went silent! Doesn't make him a trader, I know, but ....
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Another aspect of E-bay is the opportunity it provides for scams.A friend of mine was selling a Landrover on it.Shortly after placing his ad he found it had been 'cloned'.They had changed the details but used the photos and text in their advert.He claimed to have the Landy in Leeds plus two other cars,one in Glasgow and the other in Southampton,all on 24 hour auctions.I presume the idea was to extract a deposit from someone before dissappearing.
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I remember now why his story is mysterious - seller says estate car too big for wife, now bought a saloon (and a hatchback - both Avensis) - except that he bought the saloon and the hatch before he bought the estate!
One suggestion is that he bought all three to sell on, and has sold the hatch and the saloon via other outlets - and hasn't sold the estate so now is using Ebay to get his money out - there could be others, of course.
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Without getting too technical whether a trade has commenced for tax purposes has to be decided on the facts of the case. There are 6 'badges of trade'.
1. The subject matter of the realisation
2. The length of the period of ownership
3. The frequency or number of similar transactions by the same person
4. Supplementary work on or in connection with the property realised
5. The circumstances that were responsible for the realisation
6. Motive
The key one here is frequency, an individual who buys and sells a couple of cars a year is probably not trading even if he makes a profit. The profit would be taxable as a capital receipt if private cars were not exempted, so the profit is not taxed. One a month would almost certainly qualify as a trade taxable under D1. Within those limits you have a gray area and it would be up to the Inspector to decide if he wishes to argue the matter.
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I've always found e-Bay's administration of its website to be first class if or whenever I've had occasion to contact it about spoof e-mails, sellers etc - any matters are dealt with speedily and you are kept fully in touch.
Why not contact e-Bay and point out your concerns?
One contact route is via:
pages.ebay.co.uk/help/contact_us/_base/index.html
It is in e-Bay's own interests that its website activites are conducted in a proper manner - remember it has around nine million or more UK users alone and it would be virtually impossible to police absolutely every area of the site without some form of assistance.
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What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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>>Without getting too technical..
perhaps best expressed as 'if you think you are trading, then you are,' and 'if you are coming up with excuses as to why you are not trading, then you probably are too.'
It is perfectly possible that the local trading standards people will consider that you are trading & impose appropriate sanctions upon you... whilst the Inland Revenue will not accept that the loss you are making on your hobby is a loss that may be offset against taxable income.
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