Because 70mph is too slow for a three lane road and a modern vehicle.
I think motorways should be derestricted, but we don't have the discipline/safety awareness to make that safe in this country.
But that's a different debate.
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Because 70mph is too slow for a three lane road and a modern vehicle.
Yeah it is. I wonder if, should the black Merc have been following too close and as a result caused an accident, there would have been repercussions for the driver that were more severe than for somebody cauhgt doing 100 in good conditions? Back to the point it shows how dangerous tailgating *can* be. As a passenger with Mum the other day - she was in a rush - she nearly went into someone else on the ice. Car in front doing 25... Mum couldn't go any faster (urban road.)
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Because 70mph is too slow for a three lane road and a modern vehicle.
I think motorways should be derestricted, but we don't have the discipline/safety awareness to make that safe in this country.
But that's a different debate.
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I will put up and shut up now on this thread, because I know my views are different to most of the contributors here.
At the same time, please all take care, especially over the 'festive' season, but also at all other times too.
Take care
HF
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HF
I imagine that you are a little younger than I and trherefore probably only have experience of driving within the confines of blanket limits.
However, speaking as one who started driving circa 1963, I recall that when the 70 mph limit came in that was about as fast as a family saloon would go, and that was with drum brakes, cross-ply tyres, no ABS, no seatbelts, no airbags, no heated rear window, etc. etc.
So 70 was quite fast, but with a decent car you could travel perfectly safely at 100 and in the right conditions I have done the entire length of the M1 without dropping below 90.
With modern equipment 70 is too slow as a blanket limit.
There is nothing magical about 70 that makes it as fast as you can go whilst remaining safe. Nor about 60, or 80, or 50 etc.
Safety is about travelling at a maximum speed slightly below that at which you and your equipment can cope.
Some drivers are unsafe at any speed. And this is where tailgating comes in.
If you are travelling at 50 in a 60 limit but two cars lengths from the vehicle in front you are a danger to yourself and everyone else within range.
Similarly if you are doing 30 in a 40 limit but in the boot of the car in front.
And even if you are doing 20 in a 30 limit.
Travelling more slowly does not make one safer, at least not until you get down to zero.
Only awareness, observation and consideration will fill the bill.
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Hi BrianW,
Yes, I guess you are a little older, since you did your driving test before I was born!
I appreciate your knowledge and experience, and the point about cars nowadays being different now than they were in the past, and optimum speed limits on these cars.
My point is, and I know nobody here will agree wih me - At certain speeds, I don't think *anybody* can be in total control of their car. I know, personally (and yes maybe I'm a c**p driver) that there is a speed where I feel in control, and a speed where I don't. I don't think anyone, with normal human reactions, can be in complete control above a certain speed. As I said. I know most will disagree with me here - 'tis just my humble opinion.
HF
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HF
"At certain speeds, I don't think *anybody* can be in total control of their car."
Everybody has a limit, ultimately, it's just that the limits are individual and even then vary with road conditions, weather, time of day etc.
"I know, personally (and yes maybe I'm a c**p driver) that there is a speed where I feel in control, and a speed where I don't."
That is great, you know your limits and drive within them.
I wish everybody did, then accident rates would plummet.
Have a good Christmas.
(BTW, our bridesmaid of 30+ years ago and her husband had a head-on on Saturday, so they won't!)
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Everybody has a limit, ultimately, it's just that the limits are individual and even then vary with road conditions, weather, time of day etc.
BrianW, agree with you totally - it's just surely that the law cannot take into account every individual's different limits, plus all the variations you mention. (Know this sounds silly but you know what I mean) So, what other option is there but to have one limit, for all drivers, at all times?
That is great, you know your limits and drive within them. I wish everybody did, then accident rates would plummet.
Thank you :)
Have a good Christmas.
And you and yours too.
(BTW, our bridesmaid of 30+ years ago and her husband had a head-on on Saturday, so they won't!)
Sorry to hear that, hope they're ok.
Seasonal regards,
HF
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"So, what other option is there but to have one limit, for all drivers, at all times?"
There are plenty of options:
Stiffer tests
More police patrols
More prosecutions for careless/dangerous driving
Raise/lower minimum/maximum ages for driving
Regular retests
Graduated licences
Health checks
Simulator tests
The worst thing you can do is to try to bring everybody down to the lowest common denominator.
That denominator will just get lower and lower as drivers get less experience.
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Control also depends on the car. I was over on the Isle of Man a few months back and did the usual thing of hammering down the road to Castletown. I think I just about hit the ton but got scared and backed out of it. In a better car than a Tipo I'd have felt much more comfortable - for example I once hit the ton in my mother's Saab and it felt fine.
Of course, both of these were on quiet roads and were, to be honest, still a bit silly. If there had been any other cars around I wouldn't have got close to this speed because even though I have good reactions, you can only predict certain things. You can't assume all drivers react to things on the road ahead the same way you do, so you've got to be careful. Tailgating would be perfectly safe if everyone drove in exactly the same way, but they don't so the only way it would be safe would be with robot cars.
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Exactly, SteveH.
I'm glad you realise that a certain speed in a certain car was not right for you, but like you say, however good you feel your own reactions are, you just never know what another driver is going to do. And that's a big part of the poblem.
HF
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Rob C - why is your conclusion any more correct than the converse one that modern vehicles are too fast for a 70mph speed limit? If you argue that a speed limit is unnecessary, that implies that every driver must judge (and be presumed able to judge) the safe speed for the prevailing conditions on that road. There are examples every day to show that is not true. A speed limit is a compromise between safety and mayhem. Ours may be a bit low, but that is another argument.
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"Why can't people just obey the speed limits?"
Because they don't want to.
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From, as I have been tagged on this board! a "colonial": isn't the problem because you "do this in that lane, and not in the other one" and if you're not doing anything else you're supposed to be in "this" lane?
Why not let everyone use all lanes freely,as in the US/Canada -- seems to work over there. Those who want to drive slow seem to graduate anyway to the RH lane. Those who don't sort it out in the others.
I was merrily what you call "undertaking" in the UK 3 weeks ago and got told I wasn't s'posed to do it? Why not? It's OK in Florida, Nevada, Yukon -- what's the UK's problem? Surely the guy tailgates you because you're in his way and he thinks he can't use another lane to get around you. Yet lots of people just do anyway. Jeez, us colonials have a hard time understanding
yore so-phisti-cated ways, that we do.
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Surely the guy tailgates you because you're in his way and he thinks he can't use another lane to get around you.
Sure, some drivers tailgate another driver who is showing a lack of courtesy in lane positioning. But more often than not it is just arrogant aggressive and downright dangerous driving.
I was recently driving a car 'correctly' with an advanced driving instructor by my side and an impatient cretin 1m behind. According to the instructor the cretin was pulling faces, and making offensive gestures. Can't say I paid him any attention.
How often do you find yourself on an almost empty motorway with a moron sitting 2m behind you, or on a windy narrow country lane with high banks and a cretin 1m behind you (forcing you to slow down to give extra braking distance), or on a motorway with lanes 1 and 2 near empty and lane 3 chock a block with cars nose to tail.
Why can't we have motoring programs/magazines that for some of the time focus on driving safely for heavens sake rather than which car has the best safety gadgets? I guess it is not 'sexy' enough for them is it? Much more fun to race around a track and burn rubber. Encourage people to drive badly and then sell them protective gadgets.
Curiously enough I am rarely tail-gated by performance sports cars e.g. Lotus Elise and Porsche. It is usually a BMW/Merc/Audi. Could it be that these cars are so smooth and comfortable that the occupant has a false sense of security?
Sigh. Better get back to reading "My first crash" in the Sunday Times.
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Growler,
"Why not let everyone use all lanes freely, as in the US/Canada -- seems to work over there."
Depends how you define 'works'. As discussed in previous threads the accident rate is higher in the USA than UK. That is so whichever way you look at the statistics - per miles driven etc.
Despite an earlier contributor saying tailgating is a crime in the USA, I find tailgating endemic there; particularly on the freeways around cities. That, despite a generally more relaxed driving style.
Whilst there is a valid argument for allowing free use of all lanes, the downside would surely be an increase in tailgating. To prevent undertaking, cars in the outside lane close up the gap to stop a car cutting in front of them.
C
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Yes, Trevor,I know, but the last thing I want is an argument here
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YES, people don't want to abide by the limits, my hope is to make people realise what they are doing.
Fruitless task, yeah, nmost of the time - but if it was to save one life, one day, then I would see it as time well spent.
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good grief, is that the time?!!!
Thought someome was gonna warn me!
Night all and take care- see you soon,
HFxxx
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People feel fraustrated at being held up by modified traffic lights, speed humps, bus stop lay-bys that have been filled in, roadworks and the like, so when they get to a clear bit of road, tend to make up time.
When you get to put your foot down after a queue, you tend to feel the speed more, and have a rush of adrenaline. Thats why people do it.
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Maybe we should hook up rear parking sensors to a very bright light fitted in the back of the car. If the driver starts to get too close, the light comes on. The closer he gets, the brighter the light gets. Or maybe a pair of flashing blue lights....
Andy
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On the uestion of the rarity of accidents on m'ways, I've been amazed at the amount of pile-ups and crashes I've seen since using the motorway so much. Just last week, I saw 8 accidents in one day, one huge pile up on Thursday and an upside down white transit in the hard shoulder on Friday morning.
The tailgating situation is ridiculous. Although I do not condone it one little bit, I can see where such prats get their logic from when they're behind just one slower driver. However, what amazes me is the string of drivers, snaking along in the fast lane, less than a second between each of them. Which of course means that the slightest reduction in speed means a whole line of sharp braking and angry red lights, over and over again, which in turn slows everyone down and congests (is that even a word?) the m'way and thus hte journey takes longer than it would have done if the tailgating had never occurred!
Plus of course its dangerous!
I personally take pleasure in breaking the cycle of breaking and slowing down appropriately by de-accelerating, cause I've left enough room to do so. I know, I know, little things please little minds, but I take what I can get when Im 2 1/2 hours on the m'way every day!
Patricia
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Undetaking may work in the USA but then all cars are only going 55 mph. It would get dangerous if cars passed on all sides at the UK motorway speed of 70 to 80 mph.
On the other hand, the variable limit sections on the M25 encourage use of all lanes. When the limit is 50, all cars do that speed (or less). I tend to stay in lane 1. I may end up passing cars on the right since that lane runs smoothest (lorry drivers like a constant speed, no middle/right lane hogs, etc) but at that speed it is safer.
James
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Can anyone confirm this...I think you are allowed to undertake on that variable limit section of the M25 i.e. everyone stays in their lane doing 50 or 40 etc???
The other reason for tailgating is that people think their ABS, EBD,EBA will allow them to stop on a sixpence.
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Not so 55 (that's Jimmy Carter 1973 oil crisis stuff), the average speed maintained in the US is usually 10 mph above the posted limit and there are expressways with 65 mph posted limits, where most peoiple drive 80 just like old UK. I've driven all over the US (27 states at the last count) and I've never seen that many accidents (Ok leave out Hway 101 out of San Francisco on a Friday) but for the most part drivers are less aggressive and the driving experience is far less stressful than UK.
Yet in UK 3 weeks ago I had all manner of short-dicks trying to crawl up my exhaust pipe. If they'd have got past me where would they have ended up anyway? Yep, you got it, just in front of me at those dumb red lights they stick on roundabouts as you come off the motorways.
I put it down to cultural issues (that needs another thread and another forum).
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I've been amazed at the amount of pile-ups and crashes I've seen since using the motorway so much.
I often do a weekend drive through Guildford on the A3 dual carriageway. Most times there is a crash. Often on the south bound lanes where incoming traffic joins the road. Last weekend there was a queue several miles long. (Opposite side to me.) I don't think I know any other road that has so many crashes in the space of 500m. What is it about that road that is so dangerous?
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I've been amazed at the amount of pile-ups and crashes I've seen since using the motorway so much.
I often do a weekend drive through Guildford on the A3 dual carriageway. Most times there is a crash. Often on the south bound lanes where incoming traffic joins the road. Last weekend there was a queue several miles long. I don't think I know any other road that has so many crashes in the space of 500m. What is it about that road that is so dangerous?
reply: Its not the road thats dangerous its the idiots that use it.
chris
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"Its not the road thats dangerous its the idiots that use it."
Southerners?
;o)
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Southerners?
what no idiots up north?
chris
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I'm not saying a word :)
Blue
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I know that M4 junction very well, it's my destination and departure point to and from work. I've lost count of the number of cars that use the decline on approach to the motorway to basically floor the car and then merge at speed only to slam the anchors 200 yards onto the motorway.
Sounds like you had a very lucky escape.
An adequate gap should be a mandatory rule but every time I see the old bill on the motorway they are in outermost lane doing 56mph.
I got pulled once under the pretence of a dim rear light early one morning last summer but I think it was to get a better look at the car.
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I always thought that there would be a market for a device that could be mounted on the rear of a car and which would squirt a high pressure jet of curdled rancid greek yoghurt onto the windscreen of tailgaters. Now, I am sure that it would be illegal for someone to design and market such a useful device, but I'll be we've got a technical wizard on this site who can figure something out!
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"every time I see the old bill on the motorway they are in outermost lane doing 56mph."
I saw a motorcyle Old Bill recently on the M4 waving centre lane hogs into lane 1. I wasn't one the them...
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HF - I know it was late at night, so I may have fell asleep and started dreaming, but didn't you ask me at this point if I live North of Watford?
Then I answered and said that I lived in Sunderland?
Where have the posts gone? HJ's right, the backroom is behaving strangely...
Blue
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Hi Blue,
I certainly asked you at some point if you were north of Watford, and you told me about Sunderland - wouldn't have a clue whether it was in this thread or another, though! (late at night and all that!! But it's true, it wasn't a dream!) And I haven't seen our posts since either!
It may be that, in trying to save a little space, non-specifically nmotoring posts have to be removed, I'm not sure. But rest assured, it happend, it was not a figment of your imagination!
Take care as always
HF
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Thanks for putting my mind at rest there HF, I thought I might be going down the Audrey Roberts from Coronation Street route, and there may have been an evil villain plotting to kill me to get his hands on all my money (yes the entire tenner :)
Even HJ has had posts disappear lately though, so I guess it can't be just us. :)
Take Care,
Blue
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Hi Blue,
>>I might be going down the Audrey Roberts from Coronation Streetroute, and there may have been an evil villain plotting to kill me to get his hands on all my money (yes the entire tenner :)
Being a southie, only get to see Corrie from time to time. (and will NOT admit, here or anywhere else, that the few times I see it gets me gripped! - not enough to watch the next day though :) Could be an evil plot by me though, couldn't it, trying to get that tenner (would pay 2/3 of my aol fee for the month, a crime worth committing don't you think?
Even HJ has had posts disappear lately though, so I guess it can't be just us. :)
I'm sure there's a good reason, either that or BOTH of us are going mad!
You take care too, and if I don't speak to you again before Xmas then have a good one, and a great New Year too.
Speak to you soon, I hope,
HF
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