this is one officer's advice, it isn't official policy
this subject was done to death on here recently wasn't it
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Be nice if you were all to sing from the same hymn sheet......
How is Joe Public supposed to know what to do for the best ?
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Bloke to one side of us has a newish VW Golf R32. When he's not using that he often has a Bentley home from work to test. Guy on the other side of my house has a company Audi A4 "poshline" or something. I reckon I could leave the keys to either of our cars on the front step without problems......
;-)
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They might use one of yours to ram raid his house to get at the keys for one of his. :)
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I reckon I could leave the keys to either of our cars on the front step without problems......
Comfortably below the radar eh, Humph. I have the advantage of owning an average car with a few bits of expensive machinery dotted around nearby too.
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I wonder if haveing expensive stuff around you is really any protection as about a year ago someone tried to break into Val's Ka while ignoring my Exige parked beside it.
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Be nice if you were all to sing from the same hymn sheet...... How is Joe Public supposed to know what to do for the best ?
maybe so....but the Daily Wail sought the opinion from one person, no doubt junior, in a specialised unit and then sensationalised it as they usually do. If they'd done the research, then sought to clarify the information with a corporate answer from an official spokesperson, then their readers wouldn't have been confused would they. But then the Daily Wail know this...they just want to sell a few more newspapers.
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....they just want to sell a few more newspapers...
WP,
I think your grasp of policing is firmer than your grasp of news gathering - the story was hardly sensationalised and I thought the copper's quote was entirely reasonable.
Not that what I think matters, if he said it, he said it.
As regards wanting to sell more newspapers - what should a successful newspaper aim to do?
Sell fewer copies?
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IMO it is not good journalism to print something that might make an interesting article, knowing there is another angle...and failing to follow up/print that other angle
yes a newspaper will strive to sell more newspapers, that's common sense... but if that newspaper only tells half a story, then anyone with any sense at all will likely criticise it, wanting to know the full story...and then make their own mind up
i think I have an acceptable knowledge of news gathering...which is why i look down my nose at the rabble rousers
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'a vehicle crime specialist from the Metropolitan Police'
Hardy a rabble rouser.
'However, an official spokesman for the Met said the comments did not represent their official advice, which was to keep car keys out of view.'
So they both work for the same force, one says leave your keys available, the other says don't'
British policing at it's best. Conflicting advice from one of the largest forces in the country and joe Public left scratching their head. So if you're a gambling man and you are happy to take a chance on the insurers paying up when you happily hand over your keys, then take option one. If you are unsure ( like myself ) then hide them and don't be left with out a £15,000 car and £10,000 out standing on the loan with insurers thumbing their nose at you.
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X are you doing this intentionally?
rabble rousing was directed at the honorary red top newspaper, not the views of the original person
there are 33,000+ police officers in the Met, i dare say you could get all angles if you asked them all individually...a responsible journalist would try to get an official line as well, at the very least
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"X are you doing this intentionally?"
Westpig - this is the internet - and Mr X is this forum's tame troll, don't you know...
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this is the internet - and Mr X is this forum's tame troll don't you know...
fair comment...trouble is I hate it when my comments are twisted...and am aware many view this site even if they don't post....so can't help myself
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For the hard of reading...
''However, an official spokesman for the Met said the comments did not represent their official advice, which was to keep car keys out of view.''
Looks like an official line to me. Please explain why it is not an official line, I'd be interested to know. Inc in the phrase - 'Official " 'Met " 'Spokesman "
Edited by Mr X on 22/06/2009 at 14:03
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I'll wager the usual cyber pint that the D. M didn't solicit the advice from the individual police officer but that they read it in a force press release. Thats some what different from what you are suggesting.
It would be nice to hear from some one in the motor insurance industry replying to this official statement and clarifying if they would pay out with no messing about.
I expect we would be treated to the usual ' each case on it's merits " routine.
Trouble is, with the sophisticated alarms we now have on modern vehicles, they keys are going to be vital in taking one. I can't see the crime dying out just because they now require keys to steal.
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How is Joe Public supposed to know what to do for the best ?
"Joe public" is entirely capable of working it out for himself, without needing to be spoon-fed.
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""Joe public" is entirely capable of working it out for himself, without needing to be spoon-fed."
Is he? Joe Public's idea of security is a flimsy wooden door with a big hole cut in it and perhaps a skinny little chain to keep the bad guys out.
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""Joe public" is entirely capable of working it out for himself without needing to be spoon-fed." Is he? Joe Public's idea of security is a flimsy wooden door with a big hole cut in it and perhaps a skinny little chain to keep the bad guys out.
Oh. I thought *we*, Backroom posters, were Joe Public - do you mean that we're far more aware of the danger of theft than others, in the same way as our driving is obviously far above average...?
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"Oh. I thought *we*, Backroom posters, were Joe Public - do you mean that we're far more aware of the danger of theft than others, in the same way as our driving is obviously far above average...?"
I never singled out backroomers
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I'm surprised at this, Alan. Insurers need to specify the conditions in which keys must be stored if they baulk at paying out after a forced break-in. What constitutes hiding? In a drawer, in a safe (if so, to what standard/security rating?) - it's a can of worms.
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To be honest, if you didn't hide the keys, who would be daft enough to tell insurance crooks that they weren't at the back of some drawer?
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Are there any statistics showing the age and make/model/value of cars stolen in this way?
I own a 9 year old Peugeot and always hide my keys but am I at risk?
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i will still be hiding mine whatever and woe betide anyone who crashes my castle
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"I own a 9 year old Peugeot and always hide my keys but am I at risk?"
There probably isn't enough usable data to quantify the risk, but it's fair to assume that a higher value car presents a higher risk, but I doubt anyone can tell you what that is.
If they burgle your house and find the keys then a £500 car is as good to remove the loot as a new Porsche.
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tinyurl.com/lyuv25
An exceptional case I would have thought but I've seen nothing in society that says young men at the bottom end of the social scale don't still want to drive fast , expensive cars.
Now the days of simply smashing a steering lock and rubbing two bits of wire together on the more sportier models, keys will have to be obtained. Any one who is going to race your pride and joy thru the streets at 2 am in the morning whilst high on drinks and or drugs, isn't going to worry about how they get the keys.
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Put them in a safe with a timelock. It's not considered a danger for shop and bank staff, so when you shrug and point to the notice announcing that the safe won't open until 5 minutes before your departure time for work, the thief will simply walk away. :)
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I don't really see the conflict in the advice myself.
Don't leave the keys on view. Good advice, why tempt the opportunist? I hang mine on a keyhook which can't be seen from any publically accessible windows.
Don't hide the keys. Good advice, once they are in, I want them to take the car and any other possessions they want; if they are determined enough to break into my reasonably well secured house, then I don't want them hurting my gf or myself while trying to steal stuff. A car is just a possession, and it's insured. Not worth getting hurt over.
Edited by Gordon M on 22/06/2009 at 16:55
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Friendly neighbourhood plod told me that a motor sitting in the driveway is often an incentive for the thieves who need transport to make off with their swag. He also warned that there's an alarming new trend where the first thing the thieves do when they get inside the house is to boil up the kettle, and it's most definitely not for a cuppa, and then scatter knives from the cutlery drawer on chairs in every room where they can be easily picked up if they're disturbed.
Best advice is to stay upstairs, with or without your carkeys, and dial 999.
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I remember having a discussion a few years back with some one who had fallen from the path of righteousness along the lines of one day you'll need your thumb print to start and drive your car. No probs, he replied, we'd just cut your thumb off.
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There are those who think thank the lord they live in jolly old England where such a thing could never happen. I beg to differ. Finger Print activated cars should remain a no no.
Wonder if voice recognition will ever be good enough to consider as an option ?
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Should the worst happen and a few nasty men barge their way into your house and demand the car keys the best advice is to give in....
But not too easily.
If you burst into tears and become an instant gibbering wreck, the intruders may not be satisfied with just your car.
Easy to say, but put up a bit of a fight and there's a better chance they will simply take the car and not bother doing any other horrible things to you and yours.
Something to do with allowing the dominant males in the pack to demonstrate their dominance - sort of stuff David Attenborough would understand.
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MrX - back to the point about the conflicting advice (whether to hide keys or not) Can't you make your own mind up??
Whatever advice the Police give will be criticised in the light of some later event so they'll likely play safe and aim to play things down. The murder would be the exceptional event, but you can bet someone's been beaten up to get their keys. You have to decide for yourself what you think the risks are. Afetr you've been fully informed by the Daily Mail, of course.
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I still don't have enough info to reach an informed decision.
I wish some one from the Motor Insures would put their viewpoint on this. I distrust the insurance industry after many years experience with them. Can pay but will try not to, is their motto.
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Can pay but will try not to is their motto.
They are a BUSINESS. Not a Charity....Geddit??
MD
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Their business is providing cover against loss for a fee paid in advance.
Trying to wriggle out of that agreement when the times comes to keep their side of the bargain is getting more common in all walks of insurance.
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As are people making false claims... viscious circle isn't it!
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Hang on.
It was only, what, 3 or 4 years ago that an insurance claim was turned down because the driver had left his keys in the ignition while he was paying for petrol?
The court/ombudsman or whatever ruled in his favour, that this was not classed as 'No taking reasonable precautions', because the vehicle was never out of his sight.
Personally, I would never do that but this did set a precedent.
So surely having the keys locked indoors should be enough?
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if you were walking down a high street, late at night, out of your normal routine, having been to a most agreeable re-union or something....and between you and your destination was a group of hoodies that haven't seen you yet...would you take a sensible precaution....like emptying your wallet of most (not all) your cash and your credit card and hiding them elsewhere, so that if you were mugged you wouldn't lose much
or...would you empty your wallet and pin all the notes to the o/s of your clothing, so that if they want it they can have it without any hassle
same principle, with your car keys at home...the vast majority, by far, of car thefts at home are via burglary, by people who definitely do not want any confrontation... for the odd few who are more violent than that, and by odd few I mean miniscule numbers, by all means hand them over without a fight
my families car keys are nowhere near the front or back doors, because that makes it too easy for them...if I were to be woken by someone demanding them, i'd like to think i'd be sensible and tell them where they are...(trouble is I also have a stubborn, righteous streak, so who knows, the proof would be in the pudding)
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Burglars note; WP hides his keys in the pudding :)
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I suppose we won't know the real ins and outs until a case gets to the courts.
I can see the question going along the lines of
" So Mr X, the bad man said he'd hit you with a big stick if you didn't hand over your keys. '"
Me - correct
'So what did you do then ? "
Me - I handed them the keys .
" Had they hit you with the stick "
Me - No
" Then you had no reason to hand over the keys '
" I suggest to the court that Mr X was not protecting the interests of the Insurance firm concerned in handing over the keys so readily '
Result, claim thrown out and Mr X car less and payout less.
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" Had they hit you with the stick " Me - No " Then you had no reason to hand over the keys '
That's a worry - presumably then by the same logic if they only threaten to shoot you with a sawn-off shotgun it's no excuse for handing them over? Are you saying that's how the courts work?
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We really won't know till the first case but some how, I can't see insurers wanting to open the floodgates to claims from people claiming they where threatened in to handing over keys and therefor did so. They will want to see your battered remains before parting with the ' profits ". As has been pointed out, they are not a charity.
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". for the odd few who are more violent than that, and by odd few I mean miniscule numbers, by all means hand them over without a fight"
Without wishing to drag over old coals, being personally on the receiving end of one these 'odd few' occasions, I can quite confidently state I would have received severe machete wounds had I not co-operated with the masked intruders who violently smashed their way into my house.
To the poster who suggest you put up a 'bit' of a fight, I would ask how you judge a 'bit' when faced with armed intruders.
If any force is involved at all there is no way any insurance company worth its salt would not pay out.
Cheers
jdc
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I think they will pay out when faced with some one who can show injuries. The crucial question is will they pay out in future when it is verbal threats only, especially when this becomes more common as keys become crucial to the removal of the car.?
tinyurl.com/lyuv25
Look at the value of motors involved. Makes a serious dent in the profits of the Names.
Edited by Mr X on 22/06/2009 at 21:52
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MrX - ''So Mr X, the bad man said he'd hit you with a big stick if you didn't hand over your keys. '"
Me - correct
'So what did you do then ? "
Me - I handed them the keys .
" Had they hit you with the stick "
Me - No
Which perfectly describes the offence of robbery. I think the insurer might struggle in court.
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Which perfectly describes the offence of robbery. I think the insurer might struggle in court.
this thread has gone awry....the offence of burglary is already fulfilled anyway, no Insurance Company is going to 'wriggle' if a suspect has broken into a dwelling, frightened the occupant and had their keys and car away
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I can think of a few who would wriggle but can't name them on here.
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This thread's getting boring now so lets end this argument once and for all.
If you're a regular reader of this forum and you get burgled for the car keys, please let us know how your insurance claim turns out.
That way we'll know how the company handles the claim for theft of a motor vehicle, burglary and possible GBH.
We don't need any more theoretical situations or court case dramas that haven't happened
Thank you.
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It's called discussion...... thats what you do on a forum such as this.
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