an mpv with factory fitted 45"s wow,im going to start looking for one of these on the mean streets of yorkshire tommos now
were mitsi being serious?
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Well according to Mitsubishi the base model called "classic" is fitted with 16 x 6 steel wheels, and the Equippe and Warrior are fitted with 17 x 7 wheels
We bought the car as a 1 year old directly from Mitsubishi UK, the previous owner was Mitsubishi UK, and the car was as originally supplied as far as we know.
It seems I am fairly stuck, but thanks for all your input heres a follow up question or two...
Gordonbennet says:
" Just had a quick look on 'camskills' they have your size in vredestein (i would recommend without hesitation) with xl (i presume this is extra load) at £116 each"
Question 1. if the same size why would they give me an improvement? because of directionality or lack of it?
otherwise it seems that I will need to change the wheels and tyres all together
Question 2. if i go this route, will I get away with just changing the fronts initially? or do I need to change all 4, obviously all four will have to be changed if I am moving to a different profile or wheel size.
Question 3. Since I believe the car is dangerous given current set-up, do i have any recourse to Mitsubishi?
Guy
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I'm another that thinks 18" is silly.
I woul dbe looking to put sensible wheels on it.
In the meantime however, what tyre pressures are you using ? If standard fit is 16 or 17 " where are you getting the pressures from?
And how long have you had it? Recourse from mitsi when its 3 years old?
Edited by adverse camber on 30/12/2007 at 20:46
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Hi guygamps, sorry for being so long replying.
Hopefully the link supplied will take you to the tyres i mentioned.
I've used camskills on several occasions and have found them very good to deal with, often tyres turn up the following day, also Vredesteins are superb tyres, weve got winter vreds on the hilux and the handling and grip transformation is incredible, cars i've had them on before have been good also.
I understand your predicament, but i assume yours is not the only mitsi of that model fitted with that tyre combo, if it came with those tyres and wheels as original equipment it could be an insurance problem to change, apart from the large expense of a full set of tyres and wheels.
I note that your wife thinks it has got worse, and unless your tracking has gone out of true, or you have other steering wear or angle problems, it can really only be the tyres,
If other mitsi's are running round with your tyre and wheel combo i would have thought there would have been other owners with similar experience, have you looked on mitsi forums to see if any stories similar?
Obviously if your keeping to the same size you can do the fronts only, may even be able to run out the present front tyres at the back.
Here's the link, i hope it works and you get some joy.
tinyurl.com/3yx2tq
Just reread, sorry it wasn't your wife that noticed.
Edited by gordonbennet on 30/12/2007 at 22:47
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Just had a thought Guy, have you changed your front and rear tyres about to see if the different wear patterns have any effect on the problem?
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I'm running Continental Sport Contact 2's, 235/35/ZR19, 91Y, "Extra Load" on a Vectra VXR. They do tramline a little bit, but they work well with the lowered suspension on the Vectra. I can imagine than on a vehicle with softer suspension and a higher centre of gravity, correcting tramlining might not be so much fun.
It's made a lot worse if the inside edge of the tyres are worn. Don't mess around swapping fronts to back: if the inside edge is badly worn, replace both fronts and get your tracking checked properly.
dv.
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I had a prob similar to this when i converted to low profiles, but as it happens i had it in to 2 garages to check the suspension and bushes etc and had to take it to a third garage where they noticed an obvious fault with one of the wishbone bushes which was seriously deteriated. also worth checking rear alignment and suspension.check also for worn steering components. replacing you,re new tyres and wheels again ?££££s
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I had a prob similar to this when i converted to low profiles but as it happens i had it in to 2 garages to check the suspension and bushes etc and had to take it to a third garage where they noticed an obvious fault with one of the wishbone bushes which was seriously deteriated.
Thats what really gets to me about things these days (nostalgia alert) youve had to take the motor to 3 presumably well equipped places before someone found what the first one should have.
Amazing though how quickly these bushes deteriorate once they start to get any movement.
Most of the time these sorts of steering problems in my experience have been excacerbated by worn bushes or sometimes quite pronounced toe out, often the two are linked anyway, but l have found over the years that tyre type also plays a big part.
I do hope Guy gets an easy cure when he gets mitsi to check the tracking etc, somehow i can't imagine that maker sending out hundreds of their fine cars with such an inherent problem.
It can't just be the low profiles, just look at some of the sizes being run on many vehicles now, and you don't see people fighting to control them all the time.
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Thanks everyone for your help,
I have booked the car in to Mitsubishi dealer for service Jan 15th, won't do anything to it myself to it until they have checked it out, but as well as asking them to check everything fully, tracking, bushes etc etc, I have asked them NOT to put new tyres on the front without agreeing with me up front on which tyre and quoting me first, - e.g. I don't want new Continentals put on it by default if there are better choices around (e.g. Vredestein).
If the garage come back with a "no fault found" response, then I will be pinning everything on the hope that new front tryes will help, and work hard to find the best tyre for the job.
Question: are the Vredestein mentioned above directional? how do you tell?
To answer the question above about pressures, there is a table of tyre sizes and corresponding pressures on a lable attached to inside drivers door sill, I follow those guidelines. 2.1 all round except when driving laden, then 2.1 / 2.4 (front / back).
Guy
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Guy, hopefully this link will tell you a little more about any tyres you are considering.
I'm not trying to flog the vredesteins to you, just they can be overlooked as they are premium quality and considerably cheaper than the likes of continental/michelin.
I hope mitsi find the problem for you.
tinyurl.com/2v3zof
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THE PLOT THICKENS
My Mitsubishi dealer have been making some enquiries for me prior to my car going in to them on Jan 15th,
Today they told me that the UK Importer (Colt Cars - Mitsubishi UK by any other name) modifies the cars at import.
They arrive with different wheels from Japan, then in the case of the Warrior version, have the wheels changed, have the interior "leatherised", DVD player fitted etc to bring up to Warrior version. The tyre shop mechanic also told me that they have complaints from quite a few 4 x 4 drivers about roadholding and that he agrees it is the large wheels / low profile tyres.
I have asked him to find out what size wheels the car is fitted with from Japan, if they are 16inch allows (as opposed to 17 on it now) I will then ask that Mitsubishi fit the cars originally intended on the vehicle.
So the statement "i can't imagine that maker sending out hundreds of their fine cars with such an inherent problem." is interesting in that it appears the importer might be doing exactly that.
Will update you all accordingly.
Guy
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Guy
As well as the diameter; it might be worth checking if these after-market wheels share the same offset as the factory ones - altering the negative scrub radius would have nasty effects on assymetric drag compensation.
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Today the dealer told me that in fact the cars are shipped from Japan with these wheels, so for the moment I will stay with them.
Have just ordered the Vredesteins, and booked a local fitter to fit them later this week, this will give me a chance to drive the car with new front tyres before the service next tuesday.
Anything I should ask the local fitter to check while he is fitting them. Incidentally the rears (which are the continentals mentioned earlier) have LOADS and LOADS of tread on them, so I won't change them just yet, also I have never felt the back end step out of line, it is always the front that feels like it is loosing grip. Yesterday was SO bad I don't want to drive the car at the moment.
I can accept it is trial and error, if the Vredesteins don;t give much improvement then I realise I will probably have to stump up for smaller wheels and fatter tyres, but going to give this a go first.
Guy
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I have asked him to find out what size wheels the car is fitted with from Japan if they are 16inch allows (as opposed to 17 on it now) I will then ask that Mitsubishi fit the cars originally intended on the vehicle.
Sorry if I've missed a change somewhere, but hasn't your car got 18" wheels?
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Tyre pressures were mentioned earlier in the thread but not picked up on........what do Mitsu' recommend for this combo? I mention this because the MK2 Galaxy fitted with reinforced tyres required far higher tyre pressures (up to 49PSI!) than the Mk1 which used higher profile non-reinforced tyres.
Edited by *Gongfarmer* on 08/01/2008 at 15:08
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wheel size...
MY! THE PLOT THICKEN FURTHER.
the tyres supplied by Mitsubishi are 235/45/ZR18, 98W - does the "18" refer to wheel size, because the brochure states 17 x 7 as wheel size. I just measured across the wheels (alloy edge to edge, and they measure 19"!
There is a table of tyre pressures stuck inside the drivers door, it state 2.1/2.1 front rear or 2.1/2.4 under load, thats BAR I think, not PSI. either way I check them regularly using digital tyre inflation system at local garage.
Guy
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 08/01/2008 at 19:56
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Kind of a mistake on my part
they measure 19inch, but are in fact 18 cos of a 0.5 inch lip allway round of course, tyre size is 18, I just called and checked with the dealer.
Brochure says 17, but the dealer still says, the "Warrior" comes from Japan with 18 inch wheels.
... and in case you are wondering it is 18inch Vredesteins I have ordered
Sorry for the bum steer! (no pun intended).
Guy
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the tyres supplied by Mitsubishi are 235/45/ZR18 98W - does the "18" refer to wheel size because the brochure states 17 x 7 as wheel size. I just measured across the wheels (alloy edge to edge and they measure 19"!
Well...18" is the size, but the wheels always measure an inch or so bigger.
Edited to add: The wheel size isn't measured rim to rim - it's a kind of internal diameter:
See: www.etyres.co.uk/glossary-tyre-terms?term=wheel-si...e
Edited by Bill Payer on 08/01/2008 at 17:10
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but is that pressure for 18" wheels - different pressures apply for diff size wheels.
our volvo and audi both have a chart showing the different standard size tyres and the pressures to use for each.
If that pressure (which sounds rather low for the size of vehicle) is for the 17" 'normal' fitment it will be wrong.
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The table stuck in side the car door shows different pressures for different tyre sizes, needless to say I am following (and quoting here) the pressures for the tryes size fitted.
I might bump it up and see what happens, first lets see how I get on with the Vredestiens.
Guy
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So to update the forum.
Had the Vredestiens fitted on Thursday , but only drove home 1/2 mile from fitters, on that short drive, although the car didn't weave or tramline, the steering felt very vague, as if I was driving on grease, i was a little perturbed but did not want to form conclusion on short journey home.
Mrs G drove it Friday and says she thinks it is much better.
I drove it a fair bit today, and would observer the following positve and negative.
Certainly I haven't felt the car swerve of weave unexpectedly, it did a tiny bit once on going over a pot-hole in a A road dual carriageway at about 60, but minimal concerned to before. On Motorway at 70-80 it feels very good expect when making a quick lane change when it feels a little slippery.
But
At slower speeds, especially 20 - 30 around narrow residential roads, i don't feel so happy. I still feel as if I am driving on grease, just not well connecte to the road surface.
overall, it is far improved, so thanks for the recommendation, I believe further improvement should be possible and on Tuesday during service, I will have the steering and suspension checked carefully.
Incidentally, I also had 4 wheel laser geometry test done, and small adustment made as a result.
Guy
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Guy, give the tyres a couple of hundred miles to scrub off the 'stuff' (there is a technical term for it but blowed if i know what its called) off the treads following moulding and you will notice a huge improvement in the grip.
Dread having new drive axle tyres fitted to the truck, it takes about 3 to 5 thousand miles to bed them in properly.
By the way EVO magazine did a performance tyre test in 2007 and rated your tyres no 2.
Thanks for the update, and let us know how the tyres are once bedded in.
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Forgot to say check the tyre pressures yourself as every time i've ever had tyres fitted somehow the chap always manages to put 5 to 10 lbs too much pressure in them.
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Yes I realise they will need bedding in, initial results ARE promising, I didn't mean to sound negative, just that I think further improvements should be possibkle...
Incidentally paid STS £15 plus VAT per corner to fit them, including valve and balancing thought that was very fair, they were very helpful.
Guy
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>>Guy, give the tyres a couple of hundred miles to scrub off the 'stuff' (there is a technical term for it but blowed if i know what its called)
Release agent?
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Release agent?
That sounds familiar, now if they could make that 'stuff' grip better, and bearing in mind its only a coating, think how long tyres would last if the whole tread were made out if it?
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I really don't think your tyre brand is the problem. The problem you describe is more likely to be down to the choice of wheel/tyre combo.
Firstly I would check that the offset of the 18" wheels is the same as the standard spec 16/17" wheels. The problem you describe sounds a bit like the offset could be wrong. The offset will be marked inside the wheel (usually in the casting and often as 'ET' from the German 'Eindruckstief' - inset depth). Typical numbers are 30-50mm.
Secondly, a 45-section tyre will necessarily have a very rigid sidewall - "concrete sidewalls" - this is necessary to protect the rim when going over edges etc. A stiff sidewall means that there is very little lateral compliance in the tyre - forces from lateral grooving in the road etc will be fed through to the steering because the is no flex in the sidewall to accommodate movement of the tread.
Thirdly, the release agents used nowadays are mostly water-based (they used to be silicones which took some time to rub off). Water-based release agents should disperse off the tyre very quickly.
The £15+VAT for fitting sounds steep to me - that's about £70 for the four corners, which is certainly not a reasonable price IMHO. I would go elsewhere next time.
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I think you make some good points, tyre brand may not be an issue, but tyre design combined with wheel type probably is... The Vredestiens are non directional, and certainly the scariness of driving the Grandis has gone, I;ve been in it a lot today and yesterday, the tendency to weave is still there but improved by about 70% in that when it does it you do not feel like you are going to loose control, and in fact if I was not so alert to it, possibly woudlnt even notice it now. Much Much better. Of course I had the geometry checked too... and they did make some adjustment (not sure what).
I rang around 3 places - my local trye fitter wanted £20 per corner, the next I rang wanted £15 but didnt have the gear to check the geometry, the next I rang wanted £16, so certainly round here I was confident £15 was the going rate or better.
As for wheel size, just to update you (it is mentioned somewhere above) the dealer revised his statement that the wheels are changed by Mitsubishi in the UK, and now tells me the 18inches are what comes from Japan on this car.
ON tuesday it goes for a routine service, the dealer knows already about these problems and will check everything carefully hopefully.
Guy
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Guy
Reading your posts again they do say to me 'wrong offset' - this means that the centre of the tyre's contact patch is not coincident with the steering axis and would give the symptoms you described. It should be easy to verify the offset. More than 5mm out of the spec can be a problem.
Re. the cost of mounting your tyres - I suspect you are in the soft and affluent SE. Further north we pay about £8 a corner.
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I dropped the car off today for it's service with some observations...
1. Weather is atrociious today - loads of surface water, hard rain, strong winds, yet driving to the garage (20 mins on the M25 then a mixture of A and B roads) the car felt very secure - didn't give me a single scare. I still feel an awareness of a slight slipperiness of the steering, but accept that there has been a massive improvement.
2. On arrival I looked at the Grandis in their show room, and noticed it is on 16 inch (steel) wheels, with tyres of 60 profile. I commented on that and was told it was the base model, and that the higher models still come with 18 inch wheels as standard.
3. Neil the engineer with whom I have been communicating, took the car out with me for a test drive, remember what I said about road conditions being so awful - he felt it handled better than Grandis;s normally do on those wheels given the conditions. A testament to the Vredestiens perhaps, he said he had never heard of them - I told him about this web-site and explained that since one of the fronts needed changing anyway, I had nothing to loose in trying them.
My guess is they won't find anything today, and that if I want further improvements I will need to go to 16inch wheels - that will be a project for next time the tyres need replacing so probably another year of motoring in it's current setup before I decide on a wheel change or not.
Guy
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I dropped the car off today for it's service with some observations...
Guy, did the mitsi service chaps find anything wrong with your car?
Saw a grandis yesterday near Rugby, was on the large wheels presumably like yours, to be honest it looked in good proportion. I wonder if the 16" wheels would make the vehicle look a bit too big for the wheels, a bit like the volvo S80/S60.
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Sorry not to update you, to answer your question
the Mitsubishi garage only found a problem with the brakes, they re-skimmed the front disks. interestingly I posted another topic on this forum about the brakes before saying i didn;t think they were all that good.
The car is driving superbly now, maybe better than when new, but by the time it got to Mitsubishi I had had the Vredestiens fitted and had the geometry checked and one wheel adjusted. Also by the time the service was done, I had also done about 150miles on the new tyres and they didn't feel slippery.
All in all, back being thrilled with the car and thanks to the forum for the help.
Got a problem with my Peugeot coupe now - see new posting
Guy
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Post Script
I have been on the Vredesteins for about 3 weeks now and am very impressed. But I have a really important question... I have just noticed that one tyre is on 180degs inverted to the other... i.e the direction of travel of the tread pattern is backwards on one when compared with the other - does this mean the tyres were fitted (or one was) incorrectly. If you were to remove one tyre turn, it around to match the drection of travel of the other, surely that would be sensible.
Also, how does one know which is correct and which isn't, would running one tyre backwards for 3 weeks have done it any harm?
Guy
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Hi Guy, i'm assuming from your post that the tyres are facing opposite each other, in other words the single line of tread would be on the inside (for example) both sides.
There is no hard and fast rule here, unless the tyre has direction of travel arrows on the sidewalls, which will be quite obvious). They may also have inside/outside stamped on the sidewall
I have a pair of Nokian NRV on the back of my old merc at the moment, and they look not dissimilar to your vreds, but the strange thing is that they are not 'sided' but they are direction marked, in other words if you travel behind me you have the impression that the tyres have been fitted wrongly, as i did for a while (both the solid lines are on the n/s) but when i investigated Nokian's website, i was able to print off a sheet showing that they have been designed that way, assymetric but not sided.
Whereas other makers (conti make very similar tread pattern) have assymetric treads but they are sided, so the tyres look mirror images when fitted. (is this how yours are)
I cant tell from photos or vreds website whether they are like nokian here, my suggestion would be to look at your tyres carefully for direction arrows.
Then either ask your tyre fitter to have a butchers, or e.mail vredestein with a query.
I asked vredestein a question by e.mail about their winter tyres and they very soon answered with a courteous reply.
Edited by gordonbennet on 09/02/2008 at 17:59
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Thanks, have found Vredesteins web-site and e-mailed them, you were right in that the single line is on inside - both sides.
No clear marking for direction of travel as far as I can see.
Guy
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Your set up sounds quite normal to me, and its very rare to have the nokian treads all the same way (sort of lopsided).
Don't blame you for wanting some peace of mind though, i would too.
By the way i'm glad the mitsi behaves better now.
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