I have already posted this question in another thread on underbonnet knowledge but it has produced no comment so far. The question is, who is responsible for ensuring that a car is serviced correctly, once it has been handed over to a garage for servicing. Is it the garage or the owner of the car?
I ask this question because our C5 has just been for it's annual service and the garage concerned didn't change the brake fluid, which is required to be changed every two years, and this was last done, by them, in January 2004.
Now, my wife would never have noticed this and I forgot about it until we got the car back. I did mean to mention it to them, so one could say I am as much to blame as the garage is. But am I? Should the owner of the car be completely savvy with what needs to be done, or is it the responsibility of the garage that services the car to make sure that everything is done that needs to be done? Should a garage keep a record of what was done during past services on indivdual cars, much the same way that doctors and vets will do with their patients?
I have to say, in addition, that the service schedule that comes with the C5 is a pig's ear of job, covering a multitude of different vehicles. It's like reading the small print on an insurance policy and most people would not bother to read it and would expect that the dealer, or garage servicing the car, knew what they were doing.
As far as our car is concerned, it means I have to take it back to the garage again next week.
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For some quite extraordinary reason, many manufacturers including PSA don't include essentials such as brake fluid and coolant changes in their servicing schedules. If you read the small print in the PSA servicing books, the recommended periods are listed, but I quite agree with you about the difficulty in interpreting the data - it's a wonder any of their vehicles are properly serviced.
Maybe they think that a brake fluid change every 2 years would take the shine off their stupid "change the oil every 20,000 miles" type of servicing schedule. Owner's responsibility though, I would have thought - read the supplied information.
659.
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For some quite extraordinary reason, many manufacturers including PSA don't include essentials such as brake fluid and coolant changes in their servicing schedules.
But it is in their schedule. It is listed as an operation according to age and it's not difficult to find out how old a car is. The garage that services our car does specialise in PSA cars, so they must have done dozens of them before.
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By coincidence, I have in front of me the PSA service booklet which I dug out for another reason.
Quote: "Each vehicle has its own servicing cycle based on engine type. Each cycle consists of 3 types of SERVICE (my capitals): A, B and C corresponding to the predicted key stages in the vehicle's life". These 3 types of service are itemised elsewhere in the book.
Further down the page:
"In addition there are SPECIAL (my capitals) recommendations for the replacement of some of your vehicle's vital components".
(Abbreviated version of list) Airbag system - 15 yrs; Coolant - 72k miles/5 years; Brake fluid - 36k miles/2 years; Cambelt - dealer will advise depending on engine type.
I think that the use of the words I have emphasised, viz. service and special, make the whole thing unclear and confusing. The last 4 "special" items are no more special than changing the engine oil. PSA gibberish, designed to confuse; many others just as bad.
659.
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Also designed to reduce the apparent cost of a service - again, guaranteed to confuse.
659.
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Most garages are in a sticky situation here.
Some customers would accuse the garage of adding on extra work, so, it's understandable that many garages just do the bare service tasks unless instructed otherwise.
If garages were more professional, they would run through a checklist with you when you book the car in, and pre-authorise these extra tasks (it would probably get them quite a bit of extra work!). But, most smart people get out of the trade as quickly as they can!
Practically, if I were in the unfortunate position of having to engage a garage to service my car, I would give them a schedule of exactly what I wanted doing, and strict instructions to provide me with a costed list for any extra work they found, rather than to proceed. i.e., I would take control off them - after all, it's my car, and I'm responsible for its condition!
AFAIK, there isn't any legal requirement on the garage to follow any schedule, other than to give you back a roadworthy vehicle, to carry out any work to a reasonable standard, and only to charge for the work that you authorised, and they have done.
Number_Cruncher
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Isn't changing the brake fluid necessary to maintain a roadworthy vehicle?
Now my wife wouldn't have thought twice about checking what had or hadn't been done. Neither would our next door neighbour, who owns a C4. She is a widow, so no husband to deal with the matter, and she just expects the dealer, who services her car, to do what is required. There must be millions of people who do the same.
The same applies to all sorts of professions. If an electrician rewires my house, or a plumber services my boiler, I expect it to be done to the required standard and I couldn't be expected to have the technical knowledge to check the work done, beyond spotting what might be obvious to a layman.
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>>Isn't changing the brake fluid necessary to maintain a roadworthy vehicle?
No, not really. It is just something that is recommended to be changed (with good reason!) every so often. Unlike running your tyres with no tread, or with faulty lights, etc., running with brake fluid older than X years, or with greater than N% water content isn't an offence.
Or, put another way, it wasn't until I went to work for a dealer that I had ever changed the brake fluid on a car. My father had been running his garage since the end of the war, building up a large and loyal customer base; changing brake fluid was something he had never done either. When I told him about it, he said that it was simply a scheme to drum up extra work for the dealer!
I think changing the brake fluid is a good idea, and I do it on our own car,but I wouldn't regard a car that had missed its fluid change as dangerous.
Number_Cruncher
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What did you ask for when you booked the car in ?
A service ? An oil Service ? A 20000 mile service? A full service ? a two year service ? Did you check the price nd ask what was included ?
I think that the owner has to take responsibility. Ask the garage what they recommend and what the mfr recommends, but take your own responsibility.
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What did you ask for when you booked the car in ? A service ? An oil Service ? A 20000 mile service? A full service ? a two year service ? Did you check the price nd ask what was included ? I think that the owner has to take responsibility. Ask the garage what they recommend and what the mfr recommends, but take your own responsibility.
I asked for the car to be serviced in accordance with the manufacturer's schedule, as I always do. If there is any extra work required, the garage proprietor will inform first. The price of the service is whatever it comes to. I have used this garage for seven years, I know their labour charges and how long the services should take. However, I always check the bill afterwards and query anything I am not sure about.
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I have used this garage for seven years.
Correction, nine years.
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I suppose you have to specify that you want the service according to the manufacturers data. It would still then be your task to check they had done what you wanted. It is not enough to read the bill for this information. I know of several people who have bothered to investigate work''done'' carefully and found glaring ommisions! ex. mate of mine asked if the brake linings had been checked front and rear. The uniform dirt on the wheel hubs made him suspicious and when challenged the garage admitted the wheels had not been off even though he had an entry on the bill saying the check had been carried out....oops. Another mate had a water pump replaced without his consent...knackered mate was the explanation...funny said he I only changed it the other week....
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Most garages are in a sticky situation here.<<
I agree - they just can't win.
The best garage was a specialist and we'd walk around and under the car - and the work to be done was discussed. For changing brake fluid etc, It was down to me to suggest it.
Other times I've specified the exact work I've wanted - and it's been done exactly as requested.
But generally, a member of the public requesting 'service my car' could be almost anything. Hopefully the service record would be available, and meaningful. some hope though.
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I take the maintenance record with me. I have already stated that Citroen made a pig's ear of it, but the required work is listed in there, so the garage should know what needs to be done.
If the manufacturer states that the brake fluid should be changed, then I would imagine there is good reason for it. Why wouldn't it be a safety issue, doesn't it degrade over time, leading to loss of braking efficiency? It is the same with coolant changes, which are not a safety issue perhaps, but could lead to engine damage.
I wonder how many company car services are ever checked for adherence to the required schedule?
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I can imagine the court case.
Motorist sues garage after a crash due to brake failure.
Independent engineer establishes cause of failure was brake fluid boiling due to mositure in system.
Garage regularly serviced car by manufacturer's schedule which included a change of fluid... which was never done.
The servicing garge would be argued to owe the motorist a "duty of care" to ensure the fluid was changed- or tested regularly for moisture content.
I would argue very strongly garage would lose.. big style...
madf
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Frankly, I'm astonished at the replies here.
You pay the garage because they are the professionals. They either do it by the book or not at all surely? Imagine how many people there are in this country who have no idea what's involved, so pays exhorbitant rates to a garage in order to maintain their cars as best they can, only to find out that the so called professionals haven't followed the manufacturers service schedule?
I think I'd have plenty to say about that I can tell you!
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How do you know it hasn't been changed. Might they have just forgotten to charge you !
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How do you know it hasn't been changed. Might they have just forgotten to charge you !
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The mind boggles!! Do you really think I would have paid for something that they then said they had actually done, but had forgotten to include on the invoice?
I have already stated that the car has to go back next week to have the brake fluid changed. The proprietor hadn't been aware that the brake fluid needed changing, which was the point of raising this issue in the first instance.
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I'm with driller on this - the dealers are the proffessionals - that is their main selling point when they want your servicing business i.e. they know more about the cars than anyone else and employ factory trained technicians using the latest equipment and schedules etc - so to answer machika's question - it is the garage who should advise the customer on what is required.
I have just taken my wife's Corolla in for a service. Before I signed anything to allow the work to proceed they explained everything that needed doing and specifically mentioned that the car is 2 years old and so needed a brake fluid change.
If you can't trust a main dealer to tell you what needs doing - who can you trust - they represent the maker.
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The car had the brake fluid changed yesterday. However, on collecting the car, I noticed a small dent in the top of the rear offside wing, which I am sure wasn't there before, as my wife and I were out in the car the day before and the dent is in a spot where is stands out if one is opening the boot.
I took the matter up with the proprietor, who denied it had been done in the garage. Something would have to have been dropped onto it, or brought into contact from above, so it couldn't be a car door. The car was parked on the road for a short time before I collected it, with the driver's side parked next to the pavement, so it is possible it could have happened there, although I would have thought it unlikely.
I suppose it is one of those impossible to prove situations that one has to accept, however annoying it is. The car has stayed remarkably free of damage to date, so I suppose something like this was due to happen.
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The last large Ford dealer I went to had a Service Advisor who would (by prior arrangement) inspect the car on the ground and on a hoist (in your presence) and discuss what additional items might need attention when the car gets a routine service. One of the items he used to check was the boiling point of the brake fluid as a pointer to whether it really needed changing or not.
I've no doubt there are similar arrangements at other reputable dealerships.
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L\'escargot.
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Sorry to hear about your dent, machika - you may be regretting insisting on a fluid change .. :o)
The schedule on my Pug advises fluid changes, and includes a page for stamps to record them. This suggests that they are not seen as part of the regular 'service'. The most basic service only tops up essential fluids. I suspect that even if a dealer considers fluid change as part of a regular major service, it is a fiddly job which adds noticeably to the labour cost, thereby making his charges even more unattractive. You could see it as rather like H&S legislation - enforced safety costs money, so more people choose to risk it and skimp. Which is better, and which is more likely?
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Sorry to hear about your dent, machika - you may be regretting insisting on a fluid change .. :o)
No, I don't regret the brake fluid change. Better to have a dent than to risk any skimping on maintenance (always assuming it has been done properly, of course). Dents can happen at any time but I am pretty sure that one wasn't there when I took the car in.
It always amazes me that one rarely sees a BMW with a dent anywhere. I have always believed it is because the owners of BMWs cannot abide to see any imperfections in their cars.
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I looking into buying a new Ford Mustang GT and I am pleasantly surprised to find that Ford make these cars with the intention of easy servicing. The vehicle just needs filters and fluids chaged regulary and there is no major service work for 100,000 miles. I am informed that oil needs to be changed every 5000 miles (Filter £10 + Mobil1 at £40) Ford have quoted me £200 + VAT for just an oil change!
I was also informed that providing I use Ford approved parts and carry out the servicing based on their schedule it will not invalidate the warranty either.
We all know why the European manufacturers make servicing and repairs so difficult. (We Europeans do not complain enough about being ripped off) I read somewhere on the forum that one vehicle has to have its front bumper removed to replace a blown light bulb!
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