Not all synthetics are the same. The consumer definition of "synthetic" has been stretched in terminology recently to also include Group-III Mineral Oils.
The Group-III Mineral Oils have been "chemically pseudo-synthetised" by hydrocracking.
Castrol uses this 'up-graded mineral oil' as the synthetic part of magnatec.
Mobil took Castrol to an advertising tribunal but it back-fired on them. Companies can now advertise just about anthing as "synthetic" despite not being a Group-IV/V PAO/Ester base.
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GIM
Does this explain why some of the oils Halfords used to sell were described as 'enhanced mineral', but now appear as semi-synthetics?
JS
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Does fit the facts doesn't it!
Halfords 'own Brand' fully synthetic is however a PAO (Poly Alfa Olefin) oil...the really good stuff, not mineral oil upgraded and called 'synthetic'.
(It's really ESSO Ultron repackaged. A very high spec oil).
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Hi GIM, if you dont mind me asking, how did you find out that it was Esso ultron?
I have looked at Halfords own brand oil but can not recall them having all of the manufacturers specs (like vw 500 00 and vw 505 00) printed on the label. But esso ultron, does?. When doesn't the Halfords bottle have them on, because as you say, they are the same product.
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As I work for an oil company I have of course only told you what is freely available on the internet.
Nearly all oil specs can be found if you look hard enough.
Also many other references apart from mine:
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/?f=1&t=5446
www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=6462
www.migweb.co.uk/forums/archive/index.php/t-17058
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Thanks for that GIM. I was not aware that Halfords HAD put the specs on the label.
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Sorry, when I said: 'Nearly all oil specs can be found if you look hard enough'. I meant on the internet not the bottle.
For instance:
www.mobil1.com/index.jsp (look under 'Mobil 1 products', 'resource library' then 'product data sheets')
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I used magnatec oil for a few years in my '93 vauxhall Corsa and would find that from a cold start in the mornings the hydraulic tappets would be very noisy until the oil got round after a few seconds. I didn't attribute this problem to the oil at first. However after changing the oil with some decent 10/40w I noticed that the tappet problem was significantly reduced.
It was almost like the magnatec seemed to 'drain away' from the tappets causing them to be noisy.
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when I said: 'Nearly all oil specs can be found if you look hard enough'. I meant on the internet
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gim -
is castrol slx longlife 2 the exception you imply when saying "nearly all"?
or maybe i have not tried hard enough?
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Castrol product data sheets:
www.castrol.co.uk/eng/product_data_sheets.shtml
Castrol now belongs to BP Amoco.
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Castrol product data sheets:
>>www.castrol.co.uk/eng/product_data_sheets.shtml
i must be dim, because i just cannot find slx longlife 2 on there ?
can you ??
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Robertson
The API and ACEA specs, plus manufacturers specs, are certainly on the Halfords fully-synth.
I beleieve this oil is also sold as Comma SynerG - Comma being a subsidiary of Esso.
JS
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Hi John,
Thanks for that, I didn't know it came as comma neither. I must have the Halford oil mixed up with another (memory like a sieve) as I thaught that it only had the standard API ACEA specs on and no manufacturer specs.
I personally, cant use this oil as its too 'thin' for my engine. But I had looked at a 'suitable' oil from the Halfords range, but this didn't have the VW 501 01 or VW500 00 which I needed.
My local VAG specialist now uses the GTX Magnatec, so it must be OK stuff.
As for whether its suitable for the Mondeo, i'm not sure and given the option I wouldn't pay the £10 more. What do they have as an alternative. Don't Ford use Motorcraft?
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I had an exchange with Castrol tech services recently, during which it was declared first that "All engine type oils (fully synthetic, semi or mineral oils ) are fully miscable and will
mix readily without problems", which I queried. This was then narrowed to the "Castrol range of mineral based oils are fully miscable. However in all cases the vehicle manufacturers recommendation should be followed."
He meant "miscible" anyway (mixable to produce a homogeneous result). I'm still a bit surprised that mineral and synth should mix without problems -- only an intuitive perception based on no technical knowledge whatsoever -- although I am now less surprised that mineral and Magnatec are miscible, given what has been revealed here. On the Magnatec can it says "synthetic engineering" -- weasel words indeed.
Any more comments, GIM?
And I couldn't find Magnatec on the Castrol data list.
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The Ford oil for this engine is almost certainly Formula "E" which is 5w/30 semi-synthetic;a Ford dealer does not have to use this oil-Ford only require him to use an oil of the appropriate specification.Most dealers will use whatever they can get cheapest-remember they probably buy 40 gal. drums or bigger;the same probably applies to your local VAG dealer.What is not spelt out is that the dealer becomes responsible for the guarantee if non-Ford parts are used.
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>>The Ford oil for this engine is almost certainly Formula "E" which is 5w/30 semi-synthetic>>
Ford dealerships, IIRC, should use this oil for Zetec engines such as that 1.25 and 1.4-litre units fitted to the Fiesta range to stop sticking valves.
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Robertson
Don't know what you're driving but the CommaSynerG/Halfords meets ACEA A3 B3 API SL CF plus MB 229.1, VW 502.00/505.00, BMW Longlife 98, Porsche.
Why do you say 'too thin'? The key viscosity to meet is the second one, which is the hot viscosity, and few modern cars reqire more than 40. Don't forget oil thins as it heats, so a 5W/40 oil is as thin as a SAE5 oil when it's cold, but only thins as much as a SAE40 oil would when it's hot. Result - better oil flow when cold, but protection of the heavier oil when hot. So, putting 5W in say a car which normally has 10W shouldn't cause problems as it simply replicates what the 10W thins to shortly after start up and gets round quicker.
JS
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Why do you say 'too thin'?
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john s - yes, i agree with you.
a lot of people seem to assume synthetic oil is too thin for their cars and will cause leaks to appear!
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This article 'lifted' from the inernet makes interesting reading:
[from the Technical Manager for Mobil Oil]
The most stable products on the market and those which are being chosen by manufacturers for extended service are fully synthetic PAO (PolyAlphaOlefin). This includes Castrol SLX, Esso Ultron and Mobil 1. These products are extremely stable in extremes of performance. Next consideration is viscosity. At the low temperature end you need a 0W to give the best flow around the engine and ability to satisfy hydraulic tappets and variable valve timing. Note: 0W is not thin when cold. It is just thinner than higher numbered oils, in fact it is around 10 times thicker at 20 degrees than the oil is when at 100 degrees. So there is the case for Mobil 1 0w-40. For your interest the product being promoted by Mitsubishi dealers (Castrol Magnatec) is offered to maximise profit potential from a relatively inferior cheap product. It is a mineral oil with a small percentage of non PAO synthetic to allow the not so low rating of 10w. Sure it will work and the engine will not sieze up. But consider the longer term.
(Edited to fit on page) full text at:www.mivec.co.uk/q_and_a/q_and_a.htm
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gim -
so what about the castrol-slx-lognlife-2 product data?
where is is ti on the net?
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John S and Dalglish,
Firstly, I drive a 1043cc, '93 Polo (102500miles) As mentioned in my profile.
Although the handbook was written some 13 years ago, VW 502.00 and VW 505.00 are not mentioned and therefore, it could be said that this oil is not recommended. VW 505.00 was available back then, but VW501.01 or VW500.00 is the recommended lubricants. I know that there is probably not alot of difference between them all, but why chance it when you know that the latter grades are available at great prices.
I say too thin, because it is. My tappets are noisy (only when cold) with 10w weight oils in. So a 5w is thinner still, so while the rest of the engine could probably cope well, the tappets will probably get worse. " Result - better oil flow when cold", yes this is true, but think about the other way. It probably means it flows too well, not allowing high enough pressure in both the oil pump and hydraulic tappets. This is because the the teeth in the oil pump have a grater clearance from when they were new as do the tappets. If a 10w oil "leaks" from the greater clearances too much, then even more of the 5w will. Result, lower oil pressure.
I hope you understand the blabble ive just written.
P.S. In very old engines (say 30> like in classic cars) Thinner oils, CAN, literally leak from you engine as the crank seals and gaskets were not designed to hold oils wheich are as thin as this.
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The flaw in your argument is that the w in 10w doesn't mean weight. It means the viscosity in winter. Thus there is a table of temperatures at which the oil is tested. This explains it better than I can " The purpose of the viscosity rating is to assure that, in the climate in which the engine is operated, the oil will always be able to flow through the engine's lubrication system. Eleven grades are defined. Six of them end in the letter ?W,? beginning with ?0W? and proceeding in steps of 5 to ?25W.? The W stands for winter. The remaining five grades go from ?20? to ?60? in steps of 10, without the W. In general, higher numbers mean higher viscosities.
The viscosity of the oil is tested at 100°C. Its viscosity must be greater than a minimum that is specified for each grade. For the grades without a W, a maximum viscosity is also specified. This test basically ensures the oil will perform in a warm, running engine.
For grades ending in W, in addition to the minimum viscosity at 100°C test, a low temperature test is required. The temperature depends on the grade; for the 0W grade it is -35°C , for example. The purpose of the low temperature test is to ensure that if the oil's viscosity is low enough to permit cranking, it will also be low enough to be pumped through the engine." Source: www.sizes.com/materls/engineOil.htm
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A lower W viscosity is better for a noisy cold engine, not worse.
The thicker oils don't flow so easily.
I'm not familiar with the engine, but if it has hydraulic tappets, theses are like a spring-loaded piston and valve within another piston, they are filled with high pressure oil via atiny orifice, if you use a thick oil, they will take longer to 'pump up' and close the valve clearances.
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Nortones2,
Thanks for the reply, but I already knew that W meant winter, it just some people refer to them as weight. ("quite a heavy oil" etc) There was a great series of books at my old school which explained in great detail, the subject of engine lubricants. So what you say, sound very familiar.
Sooty Tailpipes: I see where your coming from, but an engine with as many miles on as mine, will have considerably worn internal components. Is it possible that the oil will trickle out around the piston while it is being pumped in, so the clearance between lobe and tappet face is greater, hense the clacking sound. A thicker oil wont escape as readily through the clearanses. As the piston heats, it will make up this clearance by expansion allowing less of the oil to leak out.
Likewise a worn oil pump wont deliver as high a pressure with a 5w than it would with a 10w for the reasons i mentioned above.
As im no mechanic or engineer, I understand that I could be wrong.
When my car goes in for a service soon, ill tell them about the tappet and ask what they would recommend. Some people argue for thinner oils, and I see why this could help, but others have changed to thicker oil and heard the difference.
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Having thaught long and hard about this, your point would prove why some of the people who have filled their VWs with Quantum synta gold ( a sythetic of about 5w/40) have found their tappets go quiet.
Plus, a worn oil pump would make the tappets go noisy whan warm, wouldn't they?
Tut, silly me :-(
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While it is true that a thicker oil will give a higher oil pressure, this is only because it is restrictive in it's flow, not because it doing something useful like making the oil pump spin faster. If you put treacle in your washer bottle, you would surely have a higher washer fluid system if you see what I mean, still not much coming out the nozzles though.
While I can see that a higher viscosity oil can cushion noisy engine components from clattering, don't forget that a 5w is still 'thicker' when cold than an SAE40 when hot. Therefor if your engine is noisy when cold, but not when hot, it is likely the oil is better less viscous to make it quieter.
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Thanks for the support guys. I've never understood this 'synthetics cause more leaks because they are thin' argument either. As you say a 0W-40 synthetic will be no less viscous at operating temperature than a 10W-40 mineral oil, and when cold it's still far more viscous than at operating temperature. So, no problem - in fact just the benefits of better lubrication from start-up.
I wouldn't worry too much about using any modern oil in the Polo. Ok the modern specs are not listed, but any decent modern oil will be far better than those available when it was made, and that won't cause problems. As has been said, there's no problem in using modern oils with extended viscosity ranges, provided the hot viscosity matches that neded for your car.
JS
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The other thing to remember about oil pumps is that for most engine operating conditions, they are hugely oversized - a fair proportion of the oil they pump at medium to high engine speed just goes down the relief valve, and back to the sump.
If you multiply the relief valve flow (in cubic meters per second) by the relief valve pressure (in Newtons per meter squared), you get a measure of the engine power wasted.
number_cruncher
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Thanks for the help. I understand it all a bit better now.
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Millers Oils compatibility guide can be found at:
www.millersoils.net/M3auto.html
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VW's LongLife service feature apparently uses Castrol S:LX LongLife II according to:
tinyurl.com/5kprv
"Castrol SLX LongLife II is a fully synthetic engine oil formulated to satisfy the requirements of the Volkswagen LongLife service regime. Not only is Castrol SLX LongLife II capable of meeting the demands of longer service intervals for both petrol and diesel engines, it is also one of the few oils that is approved to the Volkswagen Group standard for the latest generation of the ?Pump Duse? or PD direct injection diesel engines."
By the way it's usually cheaper, if you change the oil and filter yourself, to go to a motor factor - most will let you have them at trade prices.
At the moment I use National's £15 semi-synthetic and oil filter offer which has just gone up to £20 (£25 for fully synthetic).
However, I fortunately kept a £15 newspaper voucher which is valid until the end of this month...:-)
I go to the Ormskirk National outlet where the staff are very thorough; I also get the approximately half-litre not used, out of the five litres limit, for topping up purposes (only had to use it once for this purpose).
The staff pointed out I was entitled to the full five litres whichever way I obtained it.
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