I bought a brand new BMW 318SE touring in November. I drove it for 4 days and covered less than 100 miles. I had to return it to the dealers and lost nearly £2000. Why?....I didn't realise that the pedals in a 3 series are offset to the right - the clutch pedal is on the centreline of the driving position. Consequently, although the top half of your body is square to the steering wheel, your legs are both canted to the right. The driving position is also fairly low, and so as you depress the clutch it causes a twist and stretch action. Fine for the majority of people, but for anyone with a weakness in their lower back I believe it can cause a significant problem. Within a day of buying the car I had backache. Within 2 days I had a sciatic pain in my right leg which I recognised immediatly the early stages of a disc lesion - something I haven’t experienced for over 10 years. By day four I couldn't drive the car. I tried very hard to get the pedals modified but BMW wouldn't do it. So the car had to go back.
Has anyone ever tried returning a new BMW?....I wouldn't recommended it.
BMW say they've never had anyone with this problem, however since returning the car I've found info that other people have had problems caused by the offset pedals. Therefore, the purpose of this post is simple.
1. To alert people to the potential problem.
2. To ask if anyone has (or knows of someone who has) experienced a similar problem.
Any feedback would be much appreciated.....John
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Strange to have offest pedals. I will confess to not having been in the new 3, but the old one and the current 5 don't seem to have offset pedals.
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Yup. I have had similar experience. I used suffer oddball back problems when driving my old A4. Winding the lumbar support all the way out to increase the support for my legs helped but I still suffered odd numb back type symtoms whilst doing long urban drives (anything in excess of half an hour).
The problem was solved by accident. I started to use the Gym at my local leisure centre to get fit for skiing. Amongst the excerses they prescribed must have been something to strengthen my back because I've never suffered any back problems since. (still keeping the excercise up even though I don't get to ski as much as I would like)
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I don't understand this. I too have both of the relevant factors here - i.e. a BMW 3 Series (E46) and also a dodgy back (disc at base of spine), and have been very susceptible to problems if I'm not careful with my posture. However after 21 months and 37,000 miles driving my BMW, I am quite certain that my car has never been the cause.
As to the claimed 'offset': I just checked my car out. If I sit squarely in the driver's seat, and place my right foot on the accelerator pedal and the left on the tunnel footrest, my legs are at equal angles either side of the steering column. With my left foot on the clutch pedal, my left leg is still angled to the left of the steering column.
Is there something wrong with the way johnharvey has set up his seat adjustment?
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I agree with Oz, I too sufer with lower back problems, and also own a 2002 3 series E46, and as mentioned by Oz, if you drive with your left foot on the tunnel footrest & your right foot on the accelerator, you are sitting full square to the correct driving position. I regularly complete 400 mile journeys without any problems, but I do plenty of physical excerise (as mentioned by H.J.) to keep in reasonable shape for a 60 year old wrinkly. I also paid extra for the adjustable lumber support, which I think also helps.
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Without trying to sound patronising John, I take it you test drove the Beemer before purchasing? Did you not notice the offset pedals at the time?
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Johnharvey:
On HJ's car-by-car breakdown, he lists the "bad points" of the new 3 series and incluudes a warning about the offset pedals.
" Much criticism of poor-quality conversion to RHD of early E46s. A few complaints about offset driving position even on 2002MY cars. "
This is such a well known "problem" that you would think that anyone who buys a BMW whether new or used would have read about it somewhere or other.
HJ also has a link to driving ergonomics, see FAQ1,
Ergonomics: www.drivingergonomics.com
There is also the excellent
www.car-seat-data.co.uk/
www.car-seat-data.co.uk/xlcardata.htm
which has the following table:
H1, H2, & Kerb Height measured in cm.
WO = Wheel Offset in cm; 1= slight, 2=noticeable, 3=avoid
WA = Wheel angle; 1= noticeable, 2= undesirable, 3=avoid
PO = Pedal offset; 1=noticeable, 2= undesirable, 3 and over = avoid
* = Sunroof fitted (models without have 2-4cm more headroom)
YR = when assessed; check this is still current model
MAKE/MODEL YR H1 H2 KH WO WA PO Comments
BMW
3 Series old 98 114 99 58 2 0 0 Low headroom
3 Series new * 99 112 95 58 0 1 ?1 Low headroom
It would appear from your post that you may have a pre-existing back problem, but that you did not research the car nor did you test drive it. Is this a fair assumption?
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Had to drive sister's 318 afew weeks back. First thing I noticed was the poor position of the pedals. It felt like my legs were angled towards the door and made worse when trying to operate the clutch ( whilst trying not to hit the foot rest ). The natural clutch foot possition (what I'm used to) resulted in half my foot hitting the foot rest.
try a VW Golf or Passat, the two most comfortable cars I've found. Tried Hondas, BMW, rover, fords etc. These are the only ones that I can cover miles in and still be able to walk getting out the other end.
Oldly enough, when I test drove a 330d I didn't notice any of this ?!?
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I've had not trouble with mine(330d). However I have noticed that when wearing shoes wider than the norm that clutch foot tends to catch the footrest......
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Thankyou everyone for your comments so far.
HJ - You sound like you've had back problems yourself?..I "did" mine 3 times in my mid to late 20's (the last time in 1989/90). Since then I've practiced "self-help" I wear a back support whenever I'm doing any kind of manual work and I regularly do McKinsey press ups to keep my lower back painfree. The curl exercise you mention has never worked for me - but then I also know some people swear by it.
Did I test drive the BMW?...I took a 2000 used model for a 5 minute drive up the road - It was all a bit rushed and yes - hands up - fool me for not taking more time. Although, I must add, that I owned a 3 series touring from 1991 to 1994 and never had any difficulties with the driving position - so the thought of a problem with the new car never entered my mind.
For you guys who don't get what I'm talking about...Do you drive LHD vehicles or autos? Sorry if this sounds a bit cheeky. The problem I've described relates to the clutch pedal being directly on the centreline of the driving position. Sit in your car, straighten the steering wheel and look down through its centre - what do you see?....The clutch pedal?...Now Place your left foot on the clutch and your right foot on the accelerator. See...Both legs are now canted to the right. For me, this offset position very quickly became a problem and was compounded because depressing the clutch increased the twist and stretch through my lower back.
Something in the last paragraph has just struck me....If BMW argue that their superior design ergonimics justify the pedal position - I wonder if LHD BMW's have their pedals offset to the right? If anyone has a LHD 3 series and can let me know, I'd be very interested.
I see that a couple of people have mentioned hitting the footrest when depressing the clutch. This is exactly what happened to me during the few unhappy days I had with the car.
Anyway, as for the replacement - I've bought a new Passat. HJ has been writing about the year-end VW deals and you'd better believe it. I saved nearly £4000!!! But I've learnt my (expensive) lesson. I took the Passat for a half day test drive before buying it!!
Regards to all....John
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My friend recently had to get rid of his brand new BMW 3 series convertable because of back pain. It was unbearable for him. He now has got an X5. He's a rugby player so isn't too weak in the back but that car brought tears to his eyes because of pain!
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But it's not just BMW -
checkout the website for good and bad (like new Mondeo) examples.
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Johnharvey:
Although, I must add, that I owned a 3 series touring from 1991 to 1994 and never had any difficulties with the driving position -
....If BMW argue that their superior design ergonimics justify the pedal position - I wonder if LHD BMW's have their pedals offset to the right? If anyone has a LHD 3 series and can let me know, I'd be very interested. >>
AFAIK, BMW 3 series have always suffered from severe pedal offset in conversion from LHD to RHD. The latest E46 model is supposed to suffer less but as you (& HJ) point out, the problem is still there.
The ergonomics and car-seat data links I posted earlier show that the RHD - BMW 3 series is quite bad with its pedal offset, and will cause your spine to twist.
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M.B.
Thanks. I read your original post, but I must confess I didn't follow the links...Which I've now done. Very interesting research, and clearly the issue is more widespread than I'd first thought.
With the benefit of hindsight, yes, I should have done more research and yes, I should have been more careful about taking a proper test drive, but I simply wasn't expecting the BMW to cause me a problem. I'd not had any difficulties with my back for over 10 years - during which time I'd driven my original 318i touring(M), a Volvo 940(A), a Peugeot Mi16(M), a Mercedes 300TE(A), a VW Golf(M) and a Renault Scenic(M). (I don't remember the pedals in my original 318i being offset..The car was always very comfortable.)
"Let the buyer beware".....Yes indeed. And I also wouldn't expect BMW to publish warnings that it's cars can cause (a minority of people) to experience back problems. However - they are equally not geared to dealing with the issue when it happens.
As soon as the dealer realised I wasn't going to accept the alternative (a used auto 320, with 10k on the clock, in a colour I didn't want, all for an extra £1500)...They pulled the shutters down.
"your car is parked on our premises, what are you going to do about it?"...Is not exactly what you expect from a BMW main dealer within one week of buying one of their cars!!
Regards.....John
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