has had 2 owners in 9 months!
That should ring a bell.
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>>Can we presume qxman and SteVee are speaking from professional legal experience ?<<
No - I'd love to be proved wrong on my view.
If you talk to the previous owners you may find out if there was any paperwork that went with the repair. The dealer may have thrown it away. If the dealer advertised the car as RAC/AA inspected then again, they would know about the repair.
Did you ask if the car had been in an accident ?
I don't disagree with any of jbif's comment and I'd at least consult a solicitor - probably after getting a good technical report on the repair. I would also consider if the dealer could ever pay any settlement.
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I speak from a knowledgeable background (not legal).
The Law Relating to the Supply of Goods and Services
www.berr.gov.uk/files/file25486.pdf
"Buyers are entitled to goods of satisfactory quality, taking account of any description, the price and other relevant circumstances. If an item has a fault that is present at the time of sale (sometimes referred to in this guidance as a "latent" or "inherent" fault), the consumer can complain once it is discovered."
" when the buyer is a consumer and returns the goods in the first six months from the date of the sale, and requests a repair or replacement or, thereafter, a partial or full refund. In that case, the consumer does not have to prove the goods were faulty at the time of the sale. It is assumed that they were. If the retailer does not agree, it is for him to prove that the goods were satisfactory at the time of sale. For goods returned after six months the normal rules apply so that it would be for the consumer to demonstrate they were faulty when sold. "
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when the buyer is a consumer and returns the goods in the first six months from the date of the sale, and requests a repair or replacement or, thereafter, a partial or full refund. In that case, the consumer does not have to prove the goods were faulty at the time of the sale. It is assumed that they were. If the retailer does not agree, it is for him to prove that the goods were satisfactory at the time of sale. For goods returned after six months the normal rules apply so that it would be for the consumer to demonstrate they were faulty when sold. "
Who says they were faulty ??
Only a court can decide if they are faulty / make a judgement and who will go to this length ?? time... expense etc
Just because its been repaired does not make it faulty.
So back in the land of reality my advice is as previously given
BTW Im not saying the dealer is innocent as they sounf like a bunch of crooks who dont give a stuff about customer care ... were not all like this though !!
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Who says they were faulty ??
The consumer says so, and does not have to prove it. Read the first post:
" I am now left with repairs of hundreds to get it resprayed, wax injected etc and a replacement wing. "
The key letters in the highlighted bits are "RE"
Only a court can decide if they are faulty
It is up to the dealer to prove the original repaired accident work was NOT faulty.
Im not saying the dealer is innocent
No one is saying the dealer is innocent or guilty. He should be given the chance to prove he did not sell faulty goods. Clearly the consumer believes the goods were faulty at time of purchase.
Neither you nor I have seen the car or the documents or were present when the car was bought. So, shall we let the Consumer use his rights and get the problem resolved.
There have been previous threads here on various matters which state "you have no chance" when in fact they really have every chance of success, and have later proved so.
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>>Any money you may spend trying to prove your case will be better "invested" in a new car.
If you have a concience then you should auction the car at your local auction.
If you dont then you may want to PX into a garage.
Sorry to sound harsh but you have messed up ... if you know nowt about cars then always spend £150 on a RAC report ... saves you £££££ in the long run.
Unfortunately a new car insnt an option as I cannot afford to loose 1000s in 5 months of ownership. I paid 9K for it as it is relatively rare being a 160 model and fully specced (full leather etc). I wouldnt get 6K back for it now at auction and probably not much more as a trade in against something else. This is a 3rd weekend car with a longterm plan to keep it and hence wasnt overly worried about the highish purchase price or future value as they will inevitably level off in the coming years.
Messed up maybe, however contrary to what this thread suggests I have a good knowledge of cars and never been stung before. It took me six months to finally find the right one (or so I thought) after looking at lots of bad examples. If the rust had not started we would have been none the wiser of its past as there are no other signs until you remove the door seals and pull back the carpet on the drivers side.
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bbroomlea: from a more positive angle, is there any suggestion that the car is unsafe or displeasing to drive?
If it seemed to you to be the right car and still drives like the right car, perhaps it's worth getting a good bodyshop to deal with the rust spots and try to deal with the paint mismatch, which by your own account is almost unnoticeable.
I take the point that this sort of thing can spoil one's fun a bit, but perhaps the actual MG is worth keeping?
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I am aware of what the law says jbif and yes what you are saying is all correct and in a perfect world he would not have a worry.
However having experianced this personally on numerous occassions over the years I can tell you exactly how these things pan out and they very very rarely get to court regardless of who has what rights.
My advice was based upon my experiance and how to save a lot of time and trouble for the OP.
He does not have a hope in hell after nearly 6 months and to try and suggest otherwise will cost him hundreds even thousands in legal fee's / court fees etc ... now of course IF he was to win he would PERHAPS get this back.
The dealer appears not to care so that makes it a lot more difficult ... most dealers nowadays would simply give him his money back against another vehicle (mistakes happen)
The only way foward from what I can see is to send a solicitors letter and see what happens and then to make a decision.
Bbroomlea .... sorry about your situation it sucks and it annoys me when bad traders take advantage on the public and then fob them off ... try a solicitors letter and see what happens however having given this a little thought I strongly strongly advise you to get a RAC report done ASAP for 2 reasons 1... to see if the car is safe and 2 it will be invaluable if you take it to court (ask dealer if he wants to pay for the report before you get it done ....... important from a legal point
Like I say I know what the law states however nothing is black and white especially in the courts !!
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......... we would have been none the wiser of its past as there are no other signs until you remove the door seals and pull back the carpet on the drivers side.
I can't help with your current predicament, but there are lessons to be learned from this purchase. In my experience you can nearly always spot accident damage repairs, especially when a panel has been replaced or a door reskinned. What you have to do is compare welded seams on the two sides of the car. An accident repair seam will always look different from an original seam, and sealant applied to seams will look different.
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I think OP is miffed, and his car will never feel the same again to him. But was it faulty when sold? A four year old car has a reasonable chance of having been in an accident. And a reasonable chance of having a rust spot or two.
There's an awful lot written in jbif's links about "how long should it be expected to last" and that if it doesn't last that long then it's not of satisfactory quality. I cannot see that a bit of rust and a slightly ugly repair (that it took OP 6 months to notice) constitute such a problem
However, it is worth having a word with the dealer. He may value his reputation sufficiently.
If on the other hand, the repair was sufficiently poor to be dangerous, then that is another matter.
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I can't help with your current predicament but there are lessons to be learned from this purchase. In my experience you can nearly always spot accident damage repairs especially when a panel has been replaced or a door reskinned.
No disrespect, oh snaily one, but I bet you wouldn't notice that my wife's Ford Ka has had the passenger door and most of the rear offside wing panel replaced following an "encounter" with a concrete pillar in an underground car park. There is no outward sign of a repair, even after 3 years, and I can just about make out a marginal difference in the shinyness of the paint if I look at the car from just the right angle on a very sunny day. All work done at the local Ford dealer and a really excellent job, including continuation of the Ford anti-perforation warranty. You would only spot this one (if at all) with a paint thickness gauge.
It doesn't help the OP, but here in Germany there is a consumer protection law that legally obliges you to declare bodywork repairs to the buyer when you sell a car.
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My previous Mondeo TDCi had rusting rear doors (at the bottom edge). And it had never been in an accident. The car doors were poorly made. And there was a batch like this and the bonnet, boot/hatch lid, and all 4 doors could be affected.
Annual body checks would have picked this up (but lease company saved £20pa and did not have these checks) so body warranty avoid.
So to suggest an accident repair should not rust is asking a bit much when Ford built cars in late 2003 that rusted too without being in accidents or being repaired. My Mondeo may have needed new rear doors.
... company car so not my problem thankfully.
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Really appreciate everyones advice on this and thanks for taking the time to respond.
I have been bodywork shopping today and it seems I can get the rust rectified without having to change the wing as its not too bad at the moment, get the sill repaired properly and some stone protection underneath this time :-( as well as both sills wax injected and the full drivers side resprayed including handles/vents to match the metalwork for £250.
Im not happy in paying it, but is a better price than the wing being replaced at least! The bodyshop guy spotted a few imperfections in the paintwork as well where there was dust before it was sprayed - they are very hard to tell but he could spot them straightaway.
Only concern now is the sill being joined in the middle - although having spoken to at least 3 bodyshops today they dont see it as a problem and for the strength the outer sills provide - true or not I dont know but they were all approved insurance repairers - I am a member of both MGOC and MGCC so hopefully they will provide some guidance in that area when I call them tomorrow.
The car does drive absoutely fine, no abnormal tyre wear, pulls straight on acceleration and braking and corners fine as well. I have been underneath and there is no damage to the floor or under the bonnet so I can only assume its been a side swipe of some kind as the bumper is untouched as is the bonnet.
I am going to try and get the dealer to pay the repair costs and leave it at that. Maybe they will be happy with paying £250 to avoid me and trading standards hassling them. If not then I think its a lesson learned and the if its too good to be true it probably is statement has been proven in this case!
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Have you tried contacting the previous owner to see what they say? They might advise you of the bodyshop or tell you something that might reassure you more, that it was a slight brush with a pillar or something?
That would be my first port of call.
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It doesn't help the OP but here in Germany there is a consumer protection law that legally obliges you to declare bodywork repairs to the buyer when you sell a car.
How does that work then? The vendor of a car - whether dealer or whoever - might not be aware of any prior damage, which may have been very well repaired. And what would it matter that a car of a few years old might have had a new wing for instance? I take it that this law refers to all body repairs, even minor ones, never mind 'insurance write off' repairs?
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How does that work then? The vendor of a car - whether dealer or whoever - might not be aware of any prior damage which may have been very well repaired.
Well, theoretically he should have been informed by the person from whom he bought it. There are cases where the original seller was sued for loss of value several years down the line by a subsequent buyer for a nondeclared accident repair. It's normal here to use a sales contract for buying and selling cars, even as a private person.
And what would it matter that a car of a few years old might have had a new wing for instance? I take it that this law refers to all body repairs even minor ones never mind 'insurance write off' repairs?
The law is intended to cover serious accident and especially structural damage so that the buyer is aware of it and can make the decision whether it bothers him or not. It's not intended to cover minor damage or wear and tear. Obviously as with anything else there will be grey areas. I think the idea is if in doubt about something you should mention it and potentially write it in the sales contract. I looked into this, by the way, so as to know whether I need to declare to a potential buyer the repaired damage to my wife's car which we are selling soon. The answer was a definite yes as the repairs, whilst not structural, were extensive (and expensive).
As an aside, if you have an accident here then the insurance from the third party will not only pay for the repair of your car, they will also reimburse you for the calculated loss of value due to your car no longer being accident free.
All very complicated, but this is Germany;-)
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