I am in the "cup of coffee and a read of the sports pages in the kitchen" brigade.
Neigbour on one side is away in the porsche at 6:30, the other is off in the HiAce at 7. and I am away at any time between 6 & 8:30 am.
In my opinion absolutley no damage of any kind in any shape or form is being done to my engine or car in the 10 minutes it takes to warm up while idling.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Maybe in a ye olde agri-diesel...I've heard modern TDI's really don't like idling as it can affect the turbo seals.
Welcome to be proved wrong.
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I don't know the differences between modern TDI's and other Diesels, but I heard that Diesels need some load to warm up. If you put on something like a heated rear windscreen, and lights then they should warm up reasonably. Diesels tend to cope better when cold anyway though. However, the smell of a Diesel idling is unbearable people nearby :(
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However, the smell of a Diesel idling is unbearable people nearby :(
Heathen! They just smell smokey.
Petrols are awful - I followed one that had just started after going for a run and had to drop back about a quarter of a mile as it was playing havoc with my lungs.
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And the coffee in the kitchen smells even better :)
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And of course there's the fact that most insurance companies won't pay out if the car is stolen using the keys left in the ignition, and due to modern cars being more difficult to steal, this is a situation the thieves look out for on cold mornings.
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Above applies if car left unattended of course.
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Perkins diesel manual states that their engines should not be left to idle when cold.
The diesel generator engines in our Establishment mainly Gardner also stated in their manuals that running diesel engines on idle when cold is detrimental to the engine and they should be put on load after start up.
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T'pocket, t'pocket, t'pocket, t'pocket... all very well if you're awake already.
Of course these modern little things are more or less silent aren't they? Even my non-turbo 205 diesel only sounded dieselly for a couple of minures and never on the move once it got rolling. But have to admit I gave it a minute or two of idling in Switzerland one October... bit parky it was.
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Girlfriends parents house was just broken into by someone who must have seen her brothers playstation portable on the floor (next to the window in the back garden - which can't be seen by the public unless trying VERY hard - IE, walking round the back of the house through the garden), smashed the window and stole it. I only hope that people like computer consoles more than cars, but is this likely??
As for the eingine damage the is now the Honda V Ford debate. Is honda claiming its good for the CAT but remaining mute about the engine, and is ford just going on about the engine?
The chocking up the engine is interesting. I would say idleing is prehapps the opposite of giving an italian tune up.
A cold engine has lots of disadvantages such as causing cylinder washing because the oil is not circulting properly. This must be the importaint point. Oil is alleged to not heat up that much when just idleing. Could anyone explain why idleing should create extra wear, as opposed to reving?
The pollution issue in both emitions and noise aspects is not what the OP what asking about, but is relevant I should think (in telling someone off)
Am I right in asume that optimum way to heat up a cold engine is to create a load and then to rev it without labouring the engine?
This would seem to suggest the extra load on the engine would create more heat for every cycle of the cyclinder and thus would reduce cylinder wash, reducing wear. You should never labour an engine as I understand it and so under load you should rev it higher than idle speed.
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Torque means nothing without RPM
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With a full synthetic in such as Mobil 1, surely warming up at tickover should not be a problem,
as far as lubricating the bores and other components are concerned?
Now If we were back in the fifties on poor quality monograde oils. well that might be different.
IMHO its the EVIDENCE thats important, I mean who *has* had extra engine wear do to warming up at tickover?
In modern times, that is and with servicing taking place to the manufacturers standard?
I bet being slack about oil and filter changes and oil quality are the real factors causing extra engine wear.
Plus of course, being redlined from cold, as a lad around here often does.
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I have to admit on cold frosty mornings, I will go and start both cars and then have a cup of coffee. 5 minutes later, leave for work in a defrosted warm car.
This practice has never, or not knowingly, caused any damage to the cars. My old Rover 214 that has lived with me over 5 winters doing this has now done 120,000 miles and all seems well although rarely used now. My 75 diesel did 230,000 miles with no engine wear either.
My current A4TDi will be treated exactly the same as will my girlfriends MINI. If anything crops up I will be the first to let you all know but I doubt it.
I dont believe in using de-icer so if there is thick ice on the windscreen what other alternatives are there?
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I'm slinging a fan heater on a an extension lead in mine when it gets cold again. I reverse into the driveway and the front door is about 3 feet from the exhaust...
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I dont believe in using de-icer so if there is thick ice on the windscreen what other alternatives are there?
Start the car and then set the heater to maximum temperature, airflow to screen only, and maximum fan speed. If fitted, switch on the electrical screen heaters . Remove the frost from the windows with a plastic scraper. Wait (if necessary) for the bulk of the frost to melt and then switch on the wipers to remove the remainder of the frost/water.
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L\'escargot.
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Broomlea, I do exactly the same as you outline, even to not using de icer.
To the OP, It occurs to me that we may be comparing ,
Option 1, tickover until warm
to
Option 2, Drive straight off, no warm up.
But assuming option 2 is the best case scenario within this situation.
I, ( no doubt like you, and most of us here) would be *sympathetic* to a cold engine.
Low revs, small load and a keen awareness of engine temperature on the gauge.
Now are we comparing this scenario as option 2 re your Daughters driving style?
Or is her style like SWMBO?
Driving of from cold * crisply* With engine revs and load that I would rarely use even with a warm engine.
I *know* that in her case, the old 1.9D Punto is better ticking over for the 12 minutes or so that it takes to get the temperature gauge to start registering in below freezing conditions.
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Always drive it out of the garage and leave it running while my little girl puts hat, coat, scarf and wellies on which can be two minutes or ten minutes. We've had a few nights where the temp has dropped below zero so I like the heated seats to have time to warm before I get in. You can't hear a thing from inside the house and it's a gated community so it's unlikely to get nicked either.
It'll be a shame if it is bad for the engine because I'm not changing my routine for anything or anyone. Besides I've seen one person drive his newish Civic out of the garage, stop the engine, lock the garage and not be able to start it again. Don't they say a car should reach a certain temp before you turn it off?
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Lud sums it up best:
>>Even with fuel injection the engine runs richer when cold. If you drive the car the engine warms up more quickly and stops running rich sooner. Hence less cylinder washing hence less wear.>>
It is not only a matter of warming up more quickly when driven it also runs more efficiently at engine speeds above idle, i.e. even a warm engine runs a little rich at idle.
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Its when the cold engine 8-strokes (think about it) that the oil gets dilute, the cat gets a nice bit of flammable liquid, and the muck from partially burned fuel gets yer valves coated.
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Hearsay :) where`s the evidence?
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There is strong theory to suppose that idleing a cold engine produces damage, but it is unlikely that can be proved conclusivly (in that Backroom anyway) since it would entail buying a new engine and just idleing it from cold in a sucession of tests and then stripping it down. Therefore the theory is there, but I would guess nobody can offer evidence.
Taking evidence as true however we can still justify idleing a cold engine. This is that if we gain some benefit from going back inside the house and having a cuppa prehapps we should continue this behavour, even if it damages the engine. That is the damage to the engine is there but is not sufficent to change our habit of having a cuppa.
To the OP, who owns the car you or your son. If it's you I can understand that your annoyed. If it is your son's car show him this post. If he then persists with his behavour be happy for him, since he obvoisly values a cuppa and a warm car highly.
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Torque means nothing without RPM
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Taking evidence as true however we can still justify idleing a cold engine.
In this sentence replace the word evidence with the word theory.
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Torque means nothing without RPM
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Not sure if it does any harm ..... but my usual routine on frosty mornings is to start the engine, put the blower on full and scrape the ice off the back and side windows. Usually by the time I've done that the front is clear and the car (interior) is not too bad. The heated seats help too, once you get going.
Anyway, life's too short and I've never really been a fan of cold weather.
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Can I suggest the following:
Car parked within reach of extension lead - fan heater inside car on timer switch for 15 mins will clear all frost and warm it nicely.
Car not within reach of above - a warm coat, thin leather gloves (RAF aircrew gloves, a tenner on ebay) and cover the screens to keep off frost.
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Car parked within reach of extension lead - fan heater inside car on timer switch for 15 mins will clear all frost and warm it nicely.
I thought that was my idea. :o(
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Somewhere I have an old paraffin heater that looks like an old miners' lamp, but with a gauze screen where the glass would be. Light it, hang it under the engine using the hook on its cap, and the engine stays warm enough all night.
Best to remove it before setting off....
I've used the fan heater under lorry engines that have been reluctant to start on cold mornings - takes about an hour to get the block warmed through.
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"old paraffin heater"
My dad used one of those for years (before multigrade oil).
I'm not convinced by the 'warm it up as quickly as possible' argument, though. If a cold engine wears faster at idle, it will wear faster still under load, so any reduction in warm-up period is offset by the increase in wear rate. No doubt there is a yet-to-be-discovered optimum, but a friend of mine believed the 'no-idle' idea so strongly that he always started his cars in gear and drove off immediately! They never seemed to last...
Piston-engined aircraft always warm up at idle, BTW.
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