Hi all.
December 2007 I picked up my nice new Focus 1.6(115) zetec climate. Love the car, drives well, well built etc. HOWEVER it would appear that my 9-10K miles a year is going to change drastically to 20-25k. Fuel consumption is the one downer on the Focus (max 38mpg) and I now wonder if I should chop it in quick for a diesel. Sods law I part ex'd a diesel Seat Toledo for the Focus-partly because I only done 8K miles last year in it so thought petrol would be okay.....
Any thoughts from anyone as to the best way to go? Focus is on a PCP but settlement is £10K, which I'm likely to be able to get (ish) from a main dealer if I go for something less than a year old. My head says if the numbers work go for a pre-reg Seat Altea/Toledo again since I know the car etc etc. All suggestions gratefully received!
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Assuming 38mpg on your Focus, and 50mg on a diesel, and a 6p/litre extra cost for diesel over petrol, you're going to save about £610/year by changing. Compare that with the cost of swapping cars? (based on 25,000 miles)
Edited by Manatee on 11/03/2008 at 17:59
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I expect you will lose a lot of the price of the Focus but, in somewhat similar circumstances, I bit on the bullet and swopped. Roughly similar new model cars are Kia C'eed, Hyundai i30 and VW Golf . The first two might have too firm a ride for extended mileage however. I don't know about the Golf.
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Don't bother buying a Focus 1.8 TDCi (115ps) thinking you'll save money. My wife has had one for a year, has covered 18,000 miles and gets no more than 42mpg. Well disappointing. Sale of Goods Act anybody?!
Edited by V4 Heaven on 11/03/2008 at 19:59
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Perhaps she needs to take off her lead boots and change her driving technique...
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Well I have lead boots and my MK 1.5 Focus TDCi 115 normally used to get 37mpg.
I doubt there's much she can do to improve it beyond 42mpg!!
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SWMBO gets 35 mpg out her Golf GTi. She drives reasonably sensibly.
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Cheaper to convert to LPG maybe?
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Well the 110 TDCi is very economical in the Focus, but I am surprised at these fuel consumption figures your are quoting for the 1.8 TDCi. I have been thinking of buying a Focus or a Mondeo with the 1.8 TDCi engine. What's the point if you are only getting 38 mpg, might as well have a petrol engine.
I have a BlueFinned 185 bhp (from 155bhp) 2.2 TDCI 2006 Mondeo and on my last fill up I covered 762 kms (473.5miles) on 52.8 litres of diesel. = 40.71 mpg
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Consider the Focus 1.6 TDCi 109. Use BP ultimate and some Millers Diesel Power Sport 4 and you'll get more power than the 1.8 TDCi and far superior fuel economy. If you stick to the legal limts you'll get 64mpg on motorways and 70+mpg on A/B roads.
I considered buying the 1.6 115ps Focus, took it for a long test drive and was impressed with its balance and sweet engine. However, I went for the 1.6 TDCi as I could live with the extra weight of the diesel engine over the front wheels, which affects the handling balance slightly, but the cost to run and efficiency of the diesel engine won it for me.
Monsieur Kev - I'm curious, what was your mpg prior to the Bluefin ?
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I get 42mpg average in my Volvo S80 2.5D and I don't drive like a Granny. Just taken delivery of a Focus Zetec Estate 1.6 TDCI I hope to better the 42mpg.!
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I should stay with what you have - I got an`05 Focus II 1.6 110 diesel last summer. It`s an estate, even so I don`t get better than 40 mpg mainly on fast rural roads. Motorways are a bit better but not much - you might get 50mpg if you try hard for economy, but forget the marketing hype.
The Focus is a heavy little brute - mine at 1.4 tonnes is the same weight as a Rover V8 SD1 from the 1970`s. The Peugeot 1.6 diesel is brilliant, far better than Ford`s own, and goes just as well as the 2.0 litre version (I tried both - and the latter only did 32 mpg!)
Trouble is the turbo "overboost" comes in very strong at 2000 rpm - even if you never go over 3000rpm the car goes like a rocket - I`m not talking about "through the gears" here - just leaving it in 4th. Even so, it`s very easy to find yourself doing 70 -80mph in a short distance - you have to watch it!
Sadly there`s no defying the laws of physics, so if you drive at the car`s natural pace, it`s going to guzzle the gas (relatively).
Actually I don`t mind too much as I have another reason for thinking I made a mistake - NOISE!
This is the noisiest car I`ve had in the last 20 years due to drumming through the bodywork - there`s no apparent soundproofing and any coarse surface provokes vibrations and resonances like a train going through a tunnel.
For longer journeys (over 30 mins) this makes the Focus a miserable proposition; I bought it for precisely that sort of work - now I can`t wait to get rid of it. Coupled with it`s nasty hard little seats, it`s a horror on a long journey - 3 hours or so.
So - beware - we`ve been suckered by a motoring media that thinks it`s important a car exits a roundabout 0.03 mph faster than the next sort; who cares anyway?
Sure the Focus is fun to drive - but it`s not much fun to live with.
AS
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Guy in work has bought a low mileage 1.6 petrol sport. His option was a 1.6TDCi - I put him off that ! Seems to have paid off - brim testing it his 'other alf gets 36mpg around where they live he gets 42 mpg on a lengthy run. Nice motor to look at as well.
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Go for an Altea or Leon with the 1.9 tdi easy to get 45 plus mpg even with lead boots.
I've recently had Focus MK III's as pool demo cars (from Ford UK) Petrol couldn't get any more than 33 mpg and no more than 40 mpg from the diesel - our altea can easily do 50 mpg at 70 mph on a run.
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You need to bare that a new car or one with low mileage will have a tight engine and everything else is tight as well, thus requiring more fuel to overcome the additional friction, and this will vary from car to car and manufacturer to manufacturer. Once everything has loosened up only then can you ascertain the true fuel economy of a vehicle and then it depends on how well it has been driven during the initial loosening up period.
Even my wife gets over 60+mpg on the motorway in her Focus II estate 1.8 TDCi and easily gets 60+mpg on A/B roads and she doesn't exactly hang around so goodness knows what some of you guys are doing to get such low economy.
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60mpg from a 1.8 TDCI???
I admit I drive a little heavy, but as an ADI licence holder I do have a vauge idea of how to drive a car properly, my Focus never saw more than 40mpg except on a motorway when I may have had nearly 43mpg(ish).
Your wife's car is definitely an exception rather than a rule!
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60mpg from a 1.8 TDCI???
Doesn't seem that impossible to me. I have the 2.0 TDCI Focus II and while on average I get mid to high 40's, on a long run taking it steady I get low to mid 50's . I don't do too much town driving which is the killer.
Have now ordered a 1.6 TDCI Focus III (or II.5 whatever it is) and I'm hoping to get excellent economy from it.
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Used to have a Ford C-Max with the 2.0 TDCi (136PS I think it was). Went like a rocket and frequently got 55-60mpg on a run (both on the fuel 'puter, and calculated manually).
Problem with ford diesels (as with many these days) is the throttle mapping. The accelerator is drive-by-wire, so a computer looks at where your right foot is on the pedal and then decides how much gas to chuck into the engine. They gear the throttle map to be super-sensitive to make you think the car is responsive and powerful. In reality, by the time your foot is 75% on the loud pedal, the computer is giving the engine 100% throttle. Thus many people inadvertantly drive the car harder than they intend to do.
You need to use a very sensitive foot to get decent economy out of a modern diesel (*)
(* except VAG diesels, which - in particular the 1.9 - defy the laws of physics in terms of their efficiency!)
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Very well put whoopwhoop, you're right, these days to obtain first rate mpg the driver needs to be able to apply a different driving style & understanding of what's going on under the bonnet to days gone by to get the best economy out of an engine, whilst at the same time being able to make good progress along any given road whilst extracting every bit of energy out of the fuel.
The driver has to be able to work in harmony with the car & engine management system, a bit like a fighter pilot has to work, sense & feel what the fighter is doing as well as anticipating what is about to happen next.
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I don't know about the 1.8 TDCi but my dad regularly gets high 40s to low 50s mpg from his C-Max 1.6 TDCi 110, and its also a very smooth, linear modern diesel with a nice 5 speed box unlike the unnecessary 6 speed on many a modern diesel.
Everyone is right about the VW 1.9TDi - I still have the occasional pang of regret for getting rid of my old pre-PD 110 TDi which it was very difficult to achieve sub 50mpg in, in a Seat Toledo.
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My early diesels were Peugot and Citroen 1.9 non-turbo XUD units and would achieve upto 60 mpg, but those since have been turbo-diesels including Rover 218, Xantia, Octavia 1.9 and now BMW 3 Series. Day to day driving 40 mpg is an achievement, whilst careful motorway trips may just nudge 50 mpg.
I have a friend with a 1.8 petrol Avensis who averages well over 40 mpg, the same as my 3 series if not better.
Another friend has a non-turbo Golf Diesel that does 55 mpg+ but is as slow as a snail.
I like the mid-range shove of a turbo-diesel, but the real world economy is nothing like the published figures and given the petrol/diesel price differential my next car will be a Japanese petrol.
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Most people don't calculate fuel consumptions accurately enough. To get a meaningful average you need to calculate over reasonably long periods ~ say a month at a time at least. Even then the figure will vary quite a bit from one month to another and from one season to another.
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I wouldn't say a month is long enough! I have calculated mine over 10 months.
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Problem with ford diesels (as with many these days) is the throttle mapping. The accelerator is drive-by-wire so a computer looks at where your right foot is on the pedal and then decides how much gas to chuck into the engine.
Interesting observation. I have always thought that Ford engineered in a "sensitive" accelerator linkage to make them feel superficially more powerful, from way back in the pre-ECU era.
whoopwhoop could be right if it induces drivers to let the revs rise. Provided though that the the upchanges are made promptly, max acceleration shouldn't hurt the economy - in general, engines are most efficient when the torque demand is maximised (the principle used in diesel-electric locos). I'm quite keen on getting decent economy, but I've discovered that I can accelerate smartly without affecting economy provided I change up by 2500 rpm. The acceleration is almost as good as using more revs which I know from experience will drop the fuel economy by 15% quite easily.
The only slight misgiving I have about using habitually low revs for hard acceleration is that it must increase the chances of a DMF failure. Modern turbo diesels with a flat torque curve will of course hammer the DMF at any rpm if constantly given full bananas.
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Actually I don`t mind too much as I have another reason for thinking I made a mistake - NOISE! This is the noisiest car I`ve had in the last 20 years due to drumming through the bodywork - there`s no apparent soundproofing and any coarse surface provokes vibrations and resonances like a train going through a tunnel.
My 2007 estate 1.8 TDCI has its down side, but drumming of the bodywork is not one of them. So what is differant about your one to mine?
ds
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Very interesting about accelerator input.
My VW diesel needs far less accelerator travel to make things happen than my previous Mercedes B-class, and gives 10 mpg better comsumption, even though both cars are 2.0 litres and 140 bhp. The Mercedes was an automatic, but it was a CVT which shouldn't have made that much difference.
The lack of pedal input may be the secret with VAG diesels. I get 46 mpg or so in town, 50 on motorways if I go at an indicated 80 where possible, and 55 + if I keep it down to an indicated 70.
Going back to the OP's question - Pete, if you do all the sums you could well be better off keeping the Focus you've got, particularly as you like it and opinions seem to vary as to the benefits of the diesel. Keep it until it's at least 18 months old to avoid negative equity on the PCP.
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Don't bother. If you're getting 38mpg out of the petrol, you won't see much better than this on the 1.6TDCi 110 model. I have it and last tankful was 39mpg. Best I've ever seen out of it was 47mpg and that was an almost completely motorway journey. The steering is also electro-hydraulic and much less feelsome than on the petrol models. This is the biggest disappointment I've found, though is of course much better than most steering systems out there still...[Megane take note]
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Just for the record I have a Focus 1.6 tdci 110 , I never get less than 48mpg and I were size 12 lead boots. As a small experiment I stuck to the speed limit for a day and the average consumption went up to 57 mpg. These figures would be higher still if I didn't have to lug around a boot full of work related stuff.
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Thanks for all the above info. Seems that there is a variation of fuel economies, with the 1.6 and 2.0 being slightly more frugal than the 1.8 but also other drivers do have similar poorish economy with the 1.8s.
Out of interest the Ford Focus 1.8TDCi in question is a company car (wife is first and only user apart from me on occasion) and has only covered 18,000 miles so hopefully the economy will improve as it gets older.
I've used it mainly for the past month as she's been ill and I drive it in exactly the same way as I do my 1997 Toyota Carina 1.8 (petrol) which as done 113,000 miles. I can get a bit analytical and anal about figures so can definitely confirm that on a full tank of motorway miles, being driven at spot on 80 as often as traffic allows, the Focus only gives 42 on the fuel computer. The old Carina also gives 42 when driven in the same manner and while it may have a looser engine, if we had paid the best part of 14-16,000 quid on the Focus I would have been very disappointed.
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My 306 1.9TD generally averages 42mpg, ranging from 37mpg in stop-start town driving, 47mpg if driven at steadily at 70 on the motorway and 40-42 if I drive at 80 plus. Drop down to 55-60 on an A-road in 5th gear then it will sip diesel at 50-52mpg. Drive it 'boy racer' style and it almost gets to the point where its no more economical than its 1.6/1.8 petrol equivalent, drive it steadily and it betters the petrol considerably.
My old 309 1.9 diesel (non-turbo) averaged 48mpg and never got less than 43mpg, even driven enthusiastically. Managed to get 60mpg on some long steady runs, i.e £350 miles on £25 back in the day!
Martin
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Having just switched from a Passat PD130 to a new Mondeo, I was surprised by the different throttle mapping etc.
The Mondeo felt slow initially, but it has a longer throttle pedal travel, and the response seems to be mapped to be linear -- i.e. more pedal = more go. So I had to recalibrate my ankle :-)
The Passat was like a hair trigger, just a stroke of the throttle would get the car really moving. Once it was over half throttle, using more pedal made very little difference to the rate of acceleration ...
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Thanks for all the comments guys. Whilst I do like the Focus, I have to say that after 3K miles in it I have found that I actually prefered the Toledo I had previously. I never saw less that 49mpg out of it (and this was from new so 'tightness' doesn't come into it) and actual built quality was probably better dispite the Focus 'soft touch' plastics etc. I am now in the hands of my Seat dealer to see if he can help get me out of the Focus and into an Altea/Toledo TDI. I may have to drop a reg but longterm this is going to be better than keeping what is becoming an increasingly frustrating car to own and run. Will let you know the outcome!
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In fairness, this seems to be a wider turbodiesel problem (except VAG). My friend has just got a new 320d coupe with the 177 bhp engine and the Efficient Dynamics system. BMW claim something like 54 mpg on the combined cycle. He's not getting within 10 mpg of that so far (measured brim to brim).
Mind you, 44 mpg is still very impressive for a 1500kg, 177 bhp car.
Cheers
DP
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Update.
I have been offered a deal on a Skoda Octavia 1.9 TDI Ambient. 56 reg with 11k miles from a skoda main dealer. Basically they are willing to load the price of the new car to make up the shortfall v trade in value/settlement. They can refinance at 5.5% giving me a zero deposit and same monthly repayments as now. Upside is that I will be approx £100 a month better off overall, but tied to a car whose value is considerably lower than the finance. Seat are offering to do a similar deal on a 56 Altea.
So the question now is - do I do the deal, accepting that which ever car I get I HAVE to keep for at least 3 years? And, which car to get? My head says Octavia-slightly better quality/space/refinement, but heart says Altea-better looks and ultimately its not a skoda(!) Is it still the case that the last point affects resale value/residuals more than it should-if the deal is done I am going to need all the help I can get come time to move on and I just have a nagging suspicion the Seat will hold value better than the Skoda. Or is this just me???
All thoughts welcome!
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It's you would be my guess but a look at the price guides should give you a pointer. Skodas have quite a loyal and enthusiastic following now.
Check back to my arithmetic at the beginning of this thread - you obviously have misgivings about owing more on the car than it's worth, is it worth doing this to save £12 a week assuming 50mpg? I'm not saying it isn't, that's £1800 over 3 years, if you could hang on to that it will help you next time round. But think about it before you leap.
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Update 2!
I have discounted the Octavia-just couldn't bring myself to go with a Skoda(however irrational that it).
Local Seat dealer has just phoned with an offer on an Altea, but a 2.0 diesel TDi Sport, with 6 speed manual gearbox. It's a 56 reg, 8000 miles ex Seat car and he'll do it to me for £10500, clearing my Focus and into a new PCP for £240 a month. This is the perfect deal - my only concern is that I don't know all that much about the 2.0 VAG diesel other than the mpg figures which suggests little real word difference from the 1.9.
Anyone on here run the 2.0 TDI and can comment?
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Not me personally, however my Dad has an A4 TDi 170. I have his old A4 1.9 PD so can give a bit of info.
His 2.0 isnt anywhere near as good on diesel as the 1.9 is. I still get 48-52mpg despite it being 5 years old and nearly 150,000 on the clock. The 2.0 stuggles to get 50mpg in the Audi and his running total over 18 months and 50,000 miles is nearer 45. Having said that, it is the 170 version and pulling a heavier car than what you are looking at. Unfortunately with particulate filters fitted you trade economy for emmisions (I still dont figure that out!)
Engine/drivetrain reliability has be 100%, as has my 1.9 (touching wood) after all those miles and despite the different engine its essentially the same set up.
Only critisism I have on the 2.0 is that it is not the most refined diesel in the world, however has enough torque to firmly plant you in the back of your seat in any of the 6 gears!
Hope than helps
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Well its a funny old world... Tried the 2.0 tdi Altea and hated it - powerful yes but very limited power band and noisy compared to (*anything*!). Ride was also awful. So scrubbed that instantly. On the way back home I thought, out of interest, I would pop into my local Ford dealer (not where I bought the Focus) and just see what they had there. As it happened a car transporter was just leaving the site. In the corner were a good number of unpriced, unwashed 56, and 07 plate cars. A couple were TDCi's. So I spoke to a salesman, who didn't know any details about them, no prices etc. Asked for a price on mine (explaining the situation that basically looking for a straight swap for a diesel). The price he came back with was £1500 MORE than anyone else had offered - based on the 57 demonstrator they were about to put on sale. Fantastic I thought - but how much was the demonstrator? Don't know yet came the reply. I was about to walk out muttering about incompetent saleman etc when it struck me that I now had a firm valuation for my car which they were unlikely to change so long as I bought from them by the end of the month. So I enquired about the 07 plate tdci zetec I had seen fresh off the transporter. Would they be prepared to straight swap on this? I knew the rough price for it should be about £10500. After a long chat with 'the manager' back came the offer - they would do the 2007, 07 5 door tdci zetec climate, 12K miles, for £9991 - allowing me not only a straight swap, but also £3 a month LESS than I am paying now!
I'm not convinced they will make anything out of this, but must have needed it to achieve end of month targets. Drove it and whilst a bit noisy cold, was sweet when warm. The computer average mpg stored was 47.3mpg - at least 10 mpg more than I have ever seen from the petrol. So now I'm happy, Ford are happy and the bank manager will be happy!
Thanks for the comments - I'm off to have my free extra pint of beer a month the deal now allows me!!!
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