|
This is education for me. From what I'd read before, I'd thought the Italian was a long motorway run. If it's really just a few miles without going into 4th gear I can probably do that. Have I read this totally wrong?
|
HF
Your diesel won't suffer from short journeys so much as a petrol engine. Just make sure it gets a run before the MOT, maybe with some injector cleaner, to clear out soot if you're worried--I've never had any problem with a succession of old (10 years+) diesels. Be VERY careful running a diesel at or near the red line for long-ish periods. They are not designed to do that.
Chris
|
Thanks Chris - that's good to know. I take it you mean the red fuel line? I'll bear that in mind, I do try to keep the tank a quarter full but don't always succeed.
HF
|
No! The red line on the rev counter that tells you how fast the engine is running. If you have one (most diesels do) it will be the big dial next to the speedometer--the needle moves when you press the accelerator. Part of the dial will be coloured red: don't go there, or anywhere near. Most of the oomph, such as it is, will be under 3500 revs anyway. What they are talking about with Italian tuning is running the engine at high speed under load for a period of time, not running low on fuel.
Chris
|
|
Oops, thanks again! I don't seem to have a rev counter. Can I take it that not driving too fast will mean the revs are not too high?
|
At 70mph in 5th gear you will be running at about 3000rpm if that helps. Half an hour at that rate should be enough before the MOT. Red line on a diesel car is usually about 4500-5000.
hth
Chris
|
Thanks Chris, yes that helps a lot.
HF
|
|
Be VERY careful running a diesel at or near the red line for long-ish periods. They are not designed to do that.
I disagree.
I never had any problems with my Mondeo TD (300,000m), my 405 TD (350,000m) or have any problems now with my Octavia SDi (150,000m and counting), doing flat-out runs for an hour or more. As long as you slow down GENTLY and then let the engine run for a good 5 minutes after thrashing
it (so the oil doesn't emulsify - very important on turbocharged engines, but still a wise precaution for all) you should be alright. The absolute worst thing you can do to a turbodiesel engine is run it at high speed up the motorway for two hours and then pull into a service area and switch it off straight away.
Anyway, how far off the red line is a Transit van at 75mph? How many courier companies run those up and down the motorways day in, day out? Not very, and an awful lot. The maximum revs a diesel engine can hold is determined by the amount of fuel it can inject into the engine, they are set at a point some way below that at which damage would occur.
|
Dave
You just gave many of the reasons why one should be careful--but are you really running flat out for an hour or more, really flat out? Then there's the old "cambelt snapped on the emissions test" problem with running diesels at the limiter. All the diesel cars I've had have been at least 1000 revs off the red line at 75-80mph.
Chris
|
but are you really running flat out for an hour or more, really flat out?
Oh yes, Ipswich to Beds, or indeed Gatwick to Beds, at 2 or 3am on a Tuesday or Wednesday morning, steady 4500 revs in 5th for the whole journey (apart from going past cameras, obviously). (70mph = 3000 revs)
All the diesel cars I've had have been at least 1000 revs off the red line at 75-80mph.
The Octavia is redlined at just below 4750rpm, although I've seen 5200rpm briefly when accelerating in 1st or 2nd gears.
|
The Octavia is redlined at just below 4750rpm, although I've seen 5200rpm briefly when accelerating in 1st or 2nd gears.
And btw, it still doesn't burn oil, and still doesn't touch the sides when going through an emissions test, and still pulls more smoothly and strongly than some of my friends' identical cars that never get taken over 3000rpm.
|
Right, I'm off out to see what this baby can do. I'll be joining the "I hate speed cameras they are all aimed at me" thread shortly.
Chris
|
|
|
Don't know about your diesels but when I'm in France(and over here),I'm regularly in 5th. at 4000+rpm and have done so for years in a selection of Ford diesels and I just about keep up with the Peugeots.Modern diesels(1985 on)bear no relation to earlier diesels.
|
Oh, I'm well aware of this, but you're still not redlining it and I figure the red line is there for a reason. Boy racers in ordinary cars eventually burst their engines and that's an expensive way to learn. Btw my HDI does 70mph at 2500 revs in 5th gear. The red line is at 5000. Only aerodynamics stops me doing 140mph...
I was really only giving a warning because it would be quite easy to take advice from people who know what they are doing and don't feel the need to explain the dangers and then go and destroy your car through ignorance--especially if it's old and has had a bare minimum maintenance regime. My experience running old diesels also tells me the Italian tune as such is not really necessary as long as everything else is working ok.
Chris
|
|
You don't need redline on diesels;the governor cuts in first.
|
|
|
|
Id be of the opinion that the stereotypical 'boy racer' bursts his engine by hammering their cars from cold, racing away from the lights all the time, car park stunts etc. I was with a mate recently in his dad's Mondeo TD sitting behind a mate of his at 85 on the motorway. Car in front was a 1.2 Punto (wonder if this alone was the reason.) Said Punto had been previously subjected to car park donut competition in which engine was repeatedly bounced off the limiter and hadn't been driven far. Head gasket blew on motorway; passengers of Punto blamed maxing the car at one point. Surely not, the oil is warm and so on by then. In normal driving then, surely all cars are designed to safely rev to the red line? Not INto but up to. I would have thought thats actually better than only alowing the engine to run to half its maximum all the time, even if the car does do longer journeys.
|
>I would have thought thats actually better than only alowing the >engine to run to half its maximum all the time, even if the car >does do longer journeys.
Oh the HDI goes above 2500 revs under accelleration (max power is at 4000 and it pulls hard at 3000) but I don't see that running at half maximum revs (actually right in its maximum torque band) can actually be *worse* than running at the red line where torque and power are much, much lower and the engine is audibly under stress, otherwise those clever people at Peugeot would have designed it to have useful power there.
If you watch oval racing you'll see they go round and round at (presumably) near maximum revs, with engines designed and engineered to take it, hot oil etc etc. But every now and then: POP.
Chris
|
|
Sorry, wasn't suggesting it's sensible to rev an engine to the red over and over again. What I meant was, if warm, surely the occasional run to the red line does no harm, and may clear out the deposits from the engine?
|
I've never done this with a succession of old (post 1985) diesels and I've never had one fail an emissions test or even be marginal. I reckon other factors--such as proper servicing and having the engine warm before the test--are more significant. There really is no point in redlining a diesel as there is no useful power or torque there yet fuel consumption rises dramatically. As I said my point was that a little advice can be dangerous and expensive if not qualified with caution. Imagine HF trying to go up the motorway at 70 in third in her 1.7D Astra. Harm is what she would do to it and no mistaking.
Chris
|
|
True, but I suggested occasionally running the engine to the red line cant be harmful. Theres no 'point' in revving most petrols that hard however I do know that my 309 1.4 was running better when I stopped driving it than when I bought it.
|
|
It's good practise to occasionally (once a week or so) to run a diesel upto the governer as it prevents the piston rings from coking up - which can occur during constant low (engine) speed operation.
|
How long do you hold it there Tony? The sound of cats being strangled is probably more pleasant. It seems to me you're trading off one risk with minor consequences for another with catastrophic ones, but I'm willing to be convinced. Surely running up to the governor for a length of time is a good way of finding any weaknesses and turning them into failures?
Chris
|
|
Howcome the principle is supposed to be different for diesels anyway? Surely the red line is the same for any car - as long as you don't actually enter it, you're fine? I remember being panicky about a worn cambelt but the lack of funds to replace it once, and people told me not to allow sharp increases/decreases in revs regardless of the actual engine speed.
|
Someone will surely be along with a proper technical answer to this, but diesels do what they do at lower revs and I assume therefore that they are not built to cope with higher revs, though they are built to cope with a lot of torque at low revs. Just as a comparison, my HDI 90 produces its maximum 154lb/ft of torque at 1900 revs. The equivalent 1.6 16v petrol produces its maximum 130-ish lb/ft at about 3500 revs if I remember rightly. So you are much more likely to need to rev the petrol hard in normal conditions than the diesel and I guess it's designed to cope. That's what Andrew Moorey meant about "buzzy" modern [petrol] engines.
Chris
|
How long do you hold it there Tony? The sound of cats being strangled is probably more pleasant. It seems to me you're trading off one risk with minor consequences for another with catastrophic ones, but I'm willing to be convinced. Surely running up to the governor for a length of time is a good way of finding any weaknesses and turning them into failures? Chris
No need to hold it on the governer, just a quick run through the gears (obviously not exceeding the speed limit...) shifting when the engine feels its got no more to give should do it. I agree that blasting along in a low gear with the engine held against the governer probably isn't the best of ideas!
|
|
>>Only aerodynamics stops me doing 140mph...<<
LOL, yeah that and the lack of another hundred horsepower.
|
>>Only aerodynamics stops me doing 140mph...<<
LOL, yeah that and the lack of another hundred horsepower.
Sorry carayzee, very little to do with the need for horsepower, it is basically only the wind resistance that is stopping the car reaching that speed!
pmh (was peter)
|
|
I don't get your point. Why can't it overcome the air resistance? Erm because it's run out of power.
|
If the aerodynamics were improved to the point of resulting in zero drag, the existing power would be more than adequate to take it to the point where the engine bursts on the flat!
No practical just academic!
pmh (was peter)
|
|
Yes but it isn't zero drag and we happen to live on planet earth, so it's equally academic.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
With some of our roads, where you can see 3-4 MILES ahead, and there is no traffic... easy to do.
|
Ooer! That was a healthy bit of discussion. My reply was based on experience of petrol engines rather than diesels where the Italian Tune-up is of most benefit. I drive my VW T4 hard day in and day out, it hits the rev limiter daily and so far touch wood doesnt seem to suffer, it uses no oil and at MOT time the emissions are perfect despite the EGR valve being disabled and the fuelling has been tweaked to give better performance. If you note in my post I emphasised 'at various throttle openings' not just running the thing at a constant speed.
Andrew
Happiness is a T70 at full chat!
|
Could be wrong but as Andy infers I too suspect quite a few folks have interpreted this advice as, "take it for a blast along the local "motorway" holding lower gears to keep the revs up and still be legal."
In my opinion whilst this might be one solution, it is far better actually to take the car on normal roads and, subject to keeping safe of course, give it a real work out. That is I mean on roads with hills and bends and things. Give it some clog away from junctions and so on. Not necessarily to the red line, but within 500 rpm thereof.
That way you not only blow out all the cobwebs and burn off deposits on valves, injectors, sensors etc. but do so in a way which automatically means that revs and throttle openings are varied almost constantly. The change in engine speeds allows such as piston rings to heat up and work properly, and also cool down on the overrun.
A side benefit is that other components, eg brakes will also get a good workout. Too many cars with rear disc brakes get pitted discs because the rears never do anything.
Just my opinion you know. Any excuse for a blast.
|
|
that would be flat in second, third and forth then?
|
that would be flat in second, third and forth then?
why not first? just wondered.
|
|
This will be moving across to Discussion later.
|
|
In my opinion whilst this might be one solution, it is far better actually to take the car on normal roads and, subject to keeping safe of course, give it a real work out.
This does make sense to me. Only trouble is I'm not thinking how far I'll have to go to actually find some roads that are NSL so I can give it a work out. I can't think of any within 12 or 15 miles of here - Derbyshire CC love their 40 limits and the other way is Manchester. I could always have day-trip to Barnsley, which will be OK unless I get stuck behind a truck over Woodhead!
Thanks to all for the responses BTW - very intersting.
|
Steve not sure where in Derbyshire you are but try as follows. (I do accept that limits might have multiplied since I used to use this as an errrm...."alternate" route when the A38 had severe congestion or just felt like a change. ;-)
Ashbourne North A515
right onto B5056 twds Longcliffe
continue SO through Grangemill
until you join the A6 west of Rowsley.
Fast sections, slow sections. The twisty bit of the B5056 N of Winster is just a hoot.
Not heard it from me mind. Just watch the limestone lorries near to Longcliffe. Oh and that tightening 60 left that looks like its an open 30 left about a mile earlier IIRC.
Always ended up with a broad grin!
If you are further north what about that area between A57 and A616 eg Strines etc etc? Lots of room there.
Take care!
|
|
Thanks, FiF, but I'm slap-bang in the centre of Stockport which doesn't help. Both the Buxton and Macc roads are heavily restricted so either way I'd have quite a drive to get to anywhere to open her up at all... I suppose the odd day-trip won't hurt though.
|
I never realised how lucky I am, just outside my house is a NSL road, single lanes with no markings. It's a hoot, plus it's quite hilly, so I always get to open the car up every other day. Makes a fantastic sound giving it some welly in 3rd gear going up a windy hill at 60mph. fantastic fun. And that's just on my drive to a friend's house.
Now if I want to go into the City Centre that's another matter, the main road is NSL, single lane but with markings, but again, quite windy and involves a steep hill. Excellent fun, except as it's the main road into the City Centre you get old ladys who insist on doing it at 30 mph. :(
Oh, I don 't live in the middle of nowhere either, this is glorious Sunderland, I guess we don't know when we're well off.
Blue
|
'Thanks, FiF, but I'm slap-bang in the centre of Stockport '
Cat and Fiddle road?
-
As far as petrol cars go, and I did post this once, my 309 never used any oil to speak of; my friends goes everywhere in 5th and belches blue smoke when started from cold. It has always been serviced on time too.
|
Cat and Fiddle road?
Plenty of nice roads around there - ISTR Whaley Bridge to Macc is quite nice as well and stuff around Kettleshulme. Trouble is as I say, to get there involves a good 20 minutes pottering through 30s and 40s. And there isn't even anything I could have been going to at the end of it...
|
Look Steve, stop pussy footing about! Tell the missus that you're taking her out for some snap, had a good pub recommended called the Yorkshire Bridge.
Then act all surprised when she finds out that you have to drive all the way across the Snake Pass to get to it. Plus the same on the way back!
Just make sure that after the trip back she doesn't end up on the other Steve's "Being a passenger in wildy driven car" thread
You know it nakes sense! heh heh
|
steve - pay attention - there aren't many other places you get advice as good as FiF's
I have to grow old - but I don't have to grow up
|
FIF. As you know we don't live anywhere near the Yorkshire Bridge but when on holiday up there did get sent to said pub in response to a request for somewhere that does a decent bit of grub. And lo and behold, there was grub in shovelfuls! What a spectacular road the Snake Pass is - particularly in winter. It must be one of the most famous/infamous stretches in the country. Another that I often recall (well not that often) is the Hardnot Pass and Wrynose Pass between Langdale and Eskdale - it left quite an impression on me and I was just driving a car - how do Pickfords get on when moving a customers house contents?
Regards,
KB.
|
KB.
See I remembered the full stop this time!
Snake Pass, some folks get to commute over that every day! Always one of the first to close in winter though, and its fairly clear of HGV's, unlike the Woodhead.
Hard Knott and Wrynose, yes super super challenging roads which give you some feeling of accomplishment afterwards, even if you just tootle over the tops as opposed to getting a wiggle on. Bit too busy during grockle season though.
If you like those try the Abergwesyn-Tregaron old drovers road in the Principality.
All the best,
FiF
|
I have an oil+ filter change due shortly on my buzzy multivalve petrol Civic.
Is it a good plan to give it "an Italian" immediately prior to changing the oil, to maximise detritus removal?
Will fresh oil be contaminated prematurely if it is subjected to a good thrashing in the Italian style?
cheers,
Ed.
|
With a 265bhp turbo auto, this could be tricky. Red-lining for any distance (and not massively speeding) would probably mean shoving it in 'L', any suggestions?
Stu
|
What does 'L' stand for in your car Brill?
If it's Low Gear I'd go for it. Don't forget to fizz the turbo afterwards.
|
|
'L' is indeed 'low' as opposed to '3', '4', 'D', 'N', 'R' ,'P'.
|
|
|
|
|
