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But the reason that BMW is not under the influence of GM is that they are a viable company, which Saab wasn't.
Saab fans seem to think that Vauxhall vectra buyers should have subsidised Saab buyers indefinitely. Building a midrange car is a doddle. Building a midrange car at a competitive price that still yields a profit isn't. There's no room for hobby carmakers in this age!
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You do have to apportion a fair amount of blame to SAAB here. Let's look at two cars from different manufacturers of similar corporate origins and philosophy.
1) The Jaguar X-Type. Ford give Jaguar the Mondeo platform. Jaguar add their own body, tweak the suspension, retrim and breathe on the powertrain. Result, a monumental and highly profitable success, produced fairly quickly due to the advantage that the underpinnings are known to be solid.
2) The SAAB 9-5. GM give SAAB the Vectra platform. In a fit of "must do it our way" costing so much that even GM execs blench at the waste, SAAB completely redesign the platform, change the powertrain and then rebody etc. Result, something late, full of teething troubles and losing money like it's going out of fashion.
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2) The SAAB 9-5. GM give SAAB the Vectra platform. In a fit of "must do it our way" costing so much that even GM execs blench at the waste, SAAB completely redesign the platform, change the powertrain and then rebody etc. Result, something late, full of teething troubles and losing money like it's going out of fashion.
On the other side of the coin, I can understand the desire to make sure that the 9-5 and 9-3 adhered to Saab's brand values. Otherwise you're back into badge engineering territory (Austin Cambridge, Morris Oxford, MG Magnette, Wolsley 16/60, Riley 4/72)
The whole Saab demise is such a shame as at one time they made quality cars that were different from the norm.
As to the 3 series GT, call me a cynic, but it's Marketing gone bad. Make a hatchback, position it as some kind of lifestyle statement and charge several thousand pounds more than the saloon. Update the 3 series Coupe, call it the 4 series and charge several thousand pounds more.
Shame on you BMW, just because Audi did it.
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The whole Saab demise is such a shame as at one time they made quality cars that were different from the norm.
Not really. The norm wasn't as well defined "back in the day". Battles raged between air cooled and water cooled engines, FF, FR, RR layouts. Gear shifts could be column mounted, dash mounted or floor mounted. All the major manufacturers made oddball or innovative cars. Saabs were as mundane as an academic's jacket with leather elbow patches.
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Not really. The norm wasn't as well defined "back in the day". Battles raged between air cooled and water cooled engines, FF, FR, RR layouts. Gear shifts could be column mounted, dash mounted or floor mounted. All the major manufacturers made oddball or innovative cars. Saabs were as mundane as an academic's jacket with leather elbow patches.
Saabs were certainly different from the norm in the 1980s. I don't remember many manufacturers in the 1980s making family cars with air cooled engines or indeed colimn/dash mounted shifts.
I'd like to see a list of all the oddball or innovative cars ALL major manufacturers made.
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don't remember many manufacturers in the 1980s making family cars with air cooled engines
Porsche!
Horizontally opposed air-cooled flat 6. Later turboed and went out in as a blaze of glory as the 993. Meanwhile Saab boldly redesignd the rocker cover on the Triumph slant 4.
colimn/dash mounted shifts.
Certainly the column mounted shift died in the seventies, but the Renault 4 persisted with dash mounterd gear shift throught it's lifetime before Honda rediscovered the concept.
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don't remember many manufacturers in the 1980s making family cars with air cooled engines
Porsche!
Porsche. ROFL. That is absolutely hilarious.
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aking family cars with air cooled engines
I somehow missed the word family. Porsche is of course not a family car!
But the the Fiat 126 is. Albeit a small one.
The citroen Ami is certainly a family car. But that went out of production in 1978. The point is that there are cars far more interesting and quirky than the Saab 99.
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Indeed you did. Do you need some new spectacles?:)
That is only one!
Not many. You've failed quite miserably and not not lived up to your statement. That is very ununthrottled. You must be getting old, young man!
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The Trabant, Citroen GS , Dyane and 2CV were made in the 80's and had aircooled engines.
It's pretty obvious now that it was not a technology to be proud of.
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It's pretty obvious now that it was not a technology to be proud of.
No, it's a dead end. But my point is that there were lots of 'interesting' ideas around.
They died away, not because people didn't 'invest' (squander vasts of other people's money on inferior ideas), but because customers didn't buy them. This is often forgotten when people moan about the similarity between today's cars. Diversity is only fun when it's not you that has the inferior design!
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Citroen made the GS, which was air-cooled. Mine was a lovely old-man's car, before I became one!
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Original VW Beetle...sort of a success wasn't it? Kind of? A bit? made until quite recently in S America.
Edited by Ethan Edwards on 26/03/2013 at 11:28
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>>> "As to the 3 series GT, call me a cynic, but it's Marketing gone bad. "
No, I wouldn't call you a cynic at all - just someone naturally thinking in terms of their own preferences. As for "...Marketing gone bad", I contend that it is rather "Marketing being consumer driven". Let me try to justify that.
One sort of marketing (the traditional sort) is to try to persuade people that you should buy what you want to sell them. Another sort, which is being displayed here by BMW, is the line "This is what you wanted - see how well we have provided it for you".
>>> "Shame on you BMW, just because Audi did it."
No! Good on you, BMW! Whether anyone likes it or not, there is a substantial niche of buyers who want both a hatchback and a prestige badge to go with it (and I speak personaly here). Audi took the gamble with the A5 Sportback and it paid off big time. BMW will not allow Audi a free rein in this niche and so have produced a competitor.Why should they let Audi have all the profit from it?
I hope that they succeed big time, then we can drop this obsession with forcing people who need more versatility than a saloon to buy an estate car. That's OK if you like estates and don't mind paying the premium, but if you don't then the hatchback is a godsend.
Edited by LikedDrivingOnce on 05/03/2013 at 17:31
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No! Good on you, BMW! Whether anyone likes it or not, there is a substantial niche of buyers who want both a hatchback and a prestige badge ? How many to go with it (and I speak personaly here). Audi took the gamble with the A5 Sportback and it paid off big time.
I hope that they succeed big time, then we can drop this obsession with forcing people who need more versatility than a saloon to buy an estate car. That's OK if you like estates and don't mind paying the premium, but if you don't then the hatchback is a godsend.
I think your argument is unproven. It's only the UK that has this strange obsession with hatchbacks; buyers in continental Europe still prefer saloons, and not just on prestige brands. Just look at the amount of "cooking" saloons available in Europe, which are not imported to the UK.
As for the A5 sportback, you say it paid off big time.
Really? How many A5s do you see compared to A4s of similar age?
OK, so I'm biased, I've always preferred the lines of a saloon. Also, most of the hatchbacks I've driven suffer from more road noise (no fixed bulkhead) and some kind of rattle from the tailgate or back shelf.!
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I like the look of saloons as well. I'd love one, but I need more practicality than they can offer. You can understand that, surely? And also understand that there are a lot of us world-wide in the same boat.
>> As for the A5 sportback, you say it paid off big time.
>> Really? How many A5s do you see compared to A4s of similar age?
This is a non sequitur. The A4 saloon is a big seller, fuelled partly by the fleets, but compared to the Audi range as a whole, the A5 sportback is one of the stars! Check out the figures below.
>> It's only the UK that has this strange obsession with hatchbacks
This is a fallacy which comes from motoring journalists. For a start, only limited numbers of RHD A5 Sportbacks are imported to the UK (and it was was only introduced in Autumn 2009), which is why some people think that they are a rarity and don't realise how good the World-Wide sales have been! Let's talk figures from Audi's published reports.
Audi are due to publish their 2012 figures on the 12th of this month, but their 2011 figures are available, as is their interim report for 2012 (which covers the first nine months).
In 2011 Audi produced 53,204 A5 Sportbacks, which compares favourably with the 38,095 A5 coupes, 45,628 A6 Avants and 19,704 TT Coupes (and even the 103,434 A4 Avants and 216,251).
Moving on to 2012, the first three quarter published data shows 42,580 A5 Sportbacks, which compares favourably with the 25,765 A5 coupes, 46,477 A6 Avants and 14,231 TT Coupes (and even the 73267 A4 Avants and 165687 A4 saloons).
So, yes, for Audi the A5 Sportback has paid of big time.
Edited by LikedDrivingOnce on 06/03/2013 at 14:08
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>> As for the A5 sportback, you say it paid off big time.
>> Really? How many A5s do you see compared to A4s of similar age?
This is a non sequitur. The A4 saloon is a big seller,
2).
>> It's only the UK that has this strange obsession with hatchbacks
This is a fallacy which comes from motoring journalists. For a start, only limited numbers of RHD A5 Sportbacks are imported to the UK
1). That's my point, the A4 is a big seller.
2). Because demand for an Audi hatchback is low.
The sales figures do make for interesting reading though, but they don't really back your argument up. that people want big German hatchbacks like the 3 Series GT and Audi A5 Sportback.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree LikedDrivingOnce.
StillLikesDriving.
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I think it proves that Ford was right with the Mondeo. Or Nissan with the Primera. Full size hatchbacks. Hatches are great, but wagons are better!
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I think we'll have to agree to disagree LikedDrivingOnce.
TRANSLATED: "Oh dear, the facts have proved me wrong. I'd better try and end this discussion"
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I think we'll have to agree to disagree LikedDrivingOnce.
TRANSLATED: "Oh dear, the facts have proved me wrong. I'd better try and end this discussion"
Oh dear, you're beginning to sound rather silly now, possible troll alert.
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I see. Rather than try and refute my arguments with evidence of your own, you lower yourself to the level of ad hominem attacks.
No, I am not a troll. I've been a member for about four years now. If you want verification - ask the Mods. (How long have you been a member by the way...err...."dude")
I've not been involved in a thread this much before, but then then I've never encountered anyone quite so determined to ignore all the facts as you are!
I should have realised this when you said upthread "OK, so I'm biased, I've always preferred the lines of a saloon." Kind of a giveaway that you had a closed mind. As the saying goes, "There is none so blind as he who will not see".
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The X-Type was re-engineered much more than you think TeeCee.
AROnline "The platform itself was no simple carry-over, either, the 2000 Mondeo had no AWD system to accommodate, and although some panels such as front strut tops were identical, most bore no resemblance. Further more, the wheelbases of the two cars did not even match, nor did their lengths, widths or tracks."
The X-Type was not a monumantal success much like just about every Saab ever made. However, you do have to apportion considerable blame to General Mess.
"GM’s predilection for canning Saab models at the last moment is probably unmatched in automotive history. At the beginning of the decade, Saab had prepared its own, near-bespoke, version of the Caddy SRX SUV, itself a pretty sophisticated vehicle and one Saab’s US dealers were crying out for. GM canned it at the last minute.
It also canned Saab’s version of the Subaru Tribeca SUV when GM’s relationship with Subaru ended. In that case, Saab’s 2005 New York show stand was left near-empty when GM’s decision to pull the vehicle was taken after the concept version of the proposed Saab 4x4 had already been built.
But perhaps the killer blow was GM’s decision, to cancel an all-new 9-5. Conceived during the GM-Fiat partnership, it was the sister car to the Alfa 159 and based on the all-new Saab designed ‘premium’ platform (the name gives a clear clue to Saab’s frustration at GM's limitations). Saab finally had a bespoke premium car, but GM’s split with Fiat saw the project canned. Saab simply never recovered from the loss of the 9-5 that never was." Hilton Holloway, Autocar magazine
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Thankfully the 3 Series GT is much better looking than the awful 5 Series GT.
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BMW did get something out of Rover. They've copied the Austin Maxi.................space without style/beauty.
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And now they are doing it with Rolls-Royce as well and the Wraith :-)
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Anyone else think the 3 Series GT looks a bit like a re-skin of a Ford Focus or Mondeo?
Edited by Sofa Spud on 05/03/2013 at 21:41
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I quite like the look of it, as fas as one can tell from photographs. But then what would I know? I am in the minority who think that the Range Rover Evoque is ugly as sin - uglier, as sin can be quite attractive.
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I am in the minority who think that the Range Rover Evoque is ugly as sin
No, I think you are in the majority. The concept is even uglier than the form: A faux 4X4 aimed squarely at mums.net. A far cry from the clean lines of the original RR classic.
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Halewood makes the popular Range Rover Evoque and the Land Rover Freelander 2 and the Evoque has proved to be the star performer in JLR’s range, with more than 100,000 sales across the world.
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BMWs have the undoubted virtue of not being under the influence of GM.
Saab didn't find themselves under GM's thumb because the evil nasty Americans enacted a hostile takeover and bullied the poor Swedes out of their company. BMW are a viable, profitable automaker and Saab weren't.
I know they are long gone but would they have survived if they stayed true to their design principles ?
Their design principles consisted of building an expensively made car which nobody will buy and selling it at a loss. No business with such a model deserves to survive as long as Saab did.
On the other side of the coin, I can understand the desire to make sure that the 9-5 and 9-3 adhered to Saab's brand values.
As an independent company you're free to do that, but when you're on somebody elses payroll you're not.
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There a poor (2 star) review in Saturday's Telegraph. However, like the equally poor reviews for the Signum, I wonder how much suggests it's actually a poor car, and how much is simply because journalists can't understand how to create new products, or niches as he calls them.
I know the Signum's sales were poor, but it was effectively an Insignia which usually rated 4-stars. Why people prefer an estate to a hatchback (in the UK) is a mystery. In the US, it's the opposite.
Still if there's normally only two of you, the GT is a much better bet for cases / dogs than the estate / touring.
I think it will sell well to 60+ year olds - and there's a lot of the baby-boomers about now.
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Why people prefer an estate to a hatchback (in the UK) is a mystery. ...........I think it will sell well to 60+ year olds - and there's a lot of the baby-boomers about now.
Very simple - they have more spacious load areas which is important to some people, especially if they sometimes have more than 2 people in the car.
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Why people prefer an estate to a hatchback (in the UK) is a mystery. ...........
There's no mystery to it. In the UK, the footprint of the car is a big consideration, due to the size of parking spaces and narrow lanes. An estate yields the most efficient use of cabin space for a given floorplan. An hatchback is essentially an estate with a wedge removed. A saloon is an estate with an oblong removed. You lose a lot of boot space with little if any weight lose, and no reduction in floorplan size. Utterly pointless.
Estates are more versatile, and easier to park, with the vertical rear window giving excellent visibility and an easy reference point for the rear of the vehicle. Saloons survive only because of their percieved 'executive' class, a subjective and idiotic measure.
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I know the Signum's sales were poor, but it was effectively an Insignia which usually rated 4-stars. Why people prefer an estate to a hatchback (in the UK) is a mystery.
Just remind what they have in common.
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But, apparently, the GT is more spacious than the Touring behind the front seats.
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I know the Signum's sales were poor, but it was effectively an Insignia which usually rated 4-stars.
The Signum was a Vectra-C Estate with a severely shortened tail, not an Insignia - both the Vectra-C estate and Signum had 100mm longer wheelbase than the Vectra-C saloon/hatchback.
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The Saab 9-3 replacement.
www.swadeology.com/2013/03/my-2-cents-on-the-jason...s
unthrottled, The K.I.A. Man prefers a saloon for the additional security he believes a saloon car gives the contents of the boot. Also, when you open the boot on a cold day, anyone in the car does not get frozen. Hence those clever people at Citroen, BMW..........
Edited by Trilogy on 26/03/2013 at 20:01
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The Saab 9-3 replacement
Replacement? It's an artist's impression of body panels! Admittedly, it's a fairly handsome and distinctive design-but a 3D drawing does not constitute a car.
Boot security is a perceived plus with a saloon-although it could be argued that jemmying the boot lid is no harder than smashing a toughned glass window. Less disturbance an d no broken glass to deal with. With an estate you can 'prove' that the car is empty, thus avoiding a speculative break in.
Passengers getting cold whilst opening the boot?! How does the operator of the boot lid get in and out of the car?
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The K.I.A. Man prefers a saloon for the additional security he believes a saloon car gives the contents of the boot. Also, when you open the boot on a cold day, anyone in the car does not get frozen. Hence those clever people at Citroen, BMW..........
Most models are made in both hatchback and saloon versions, even if both versions not sold in the UK - not sold because generally buyers here like hatchbacks for mid-range brands and saloons for prestige brands.
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The Saab 9-3 replacement
Replacement? It's an artist's impression of body panels! Admittedly, it's a fairly handsome and distinctive design-but a 3D drawing does not constitute a car.
Boot security is a perceived plus with a saloon-although it could be argued that jemmying the boot lid is no harder than smashing a toughned glass window. Less disturbance an d no broken glass to deal with. With an estate you can 'prove' that the car is empty, thus avoiding a speculative break in.
Passengers getting cold whilst opening the boot?! How does the operator of the boot lid get in and out of the car?
Unthrottled, it is the original designer's design of the 9-3.
www.saabsunited.com/category/jason-castriota-design
The blast of cold air you can get through the opening of a hatchback, and the time kept it open, to get stuff in or out, is considerably greater than when a driver opens and closes their door. I've been there, maybe you've been immune!
The K.I.A. man is not the same person as all those who drive a Kia. :)
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