Shared Space Schemes

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Tue 26 Jul 2011 03:18
Shared Space Schemes - jamie745

Now. I think its time to discuss something which sometimes literally keeps me up at night (like now, for instance). The short sightedness of 'shared space schemes'. Now i bring this up because ive been reading about the protests in Southend from a disability rights campaign group who are demanding a crossing, and wheeled out zebra-crossing type matt thing and staged a protest with it. Now its not often i agree with people who hold up the public highway to stage a protest but on this occasion i do and i am pleased no legal action has been brought. After all they were quite clever in their protest, they just kept crossing the 'road'. And if they must insist on declaring the shared space isnt a road and 'nobody has right of way' then how can you possibly arrest anybody for holding it up?

Ive experienced a few of the more minor ones recently, im not going to Southend and i sure as hell am not going to Blackpool (type in Blackpool shared space into Google and find out the furore that has caused) but i decided to give it a chance and see what pans out. I feel ive been fair in my assessment, and i have to conclude, they are absolutely bonkers. Ive listened to both sides, and it just doesnt stack up. Firstly my mother is disabled and cannot walk very far at all without considerable pain. Now in the past, our local little shopping bit was a street she could drive up, park outside the shop she wanted to go, on double yellows using her disabled badge, get out, walk in, come back and drive off. Well now that, say 150 yard stretch of road has been turned into a shared space, and where you used to be able to fit a good 60 cars down there on either side, they have marked out 'disabled spaces' for approximatley 8 cars, on a good day, if they're small cars and people park properly. Now basic maths tells you some disabled people will have to park elsewhere. So now, my mother has to park either in a nearby street or a main car park and take a 9 minute walk (we timed it the other day) where it used to be a 30 second walk to wherever she wanted to go, and this is too much for her and due to the idiocy of the town planners she now basically has to avoid the town the majority of the time, and is another place she cant go to. And there are other factors to take into account, the fact you used to be able to park close to the shopping area just to get the odd thing was a major feather in the cap of the area and a bonus for the local traders, the rapid turnover of cars was quite something (nobody used to stay for more than 20 minutes really in most cases), well now the fact people have to walk from the moon to get there inevitably means people will be put off and ive seen a few To Let signs going in the shop windows since the scheme opened. Obviously you could blame the economy, but i would argue in a time of economic difficulty, introducing ill thought out schemes which will only compound the problem isnt a wise plan.

Im told the idea of the shared space is the motorist and 'other road user' are to establish eye contact and decide who gives way to who. Well what about blind people? Partially sighted people? People who may have communication difficulties or learning difficulties? In a 'road' without a raised kerb you cant even train a guide dog to guide a blind person through this maize, guide dogs are trained to tell the difference between a road and a path, using a raised kerb, take that away and it causes a big problem. Ok town planners say 'theres been fewer accidents since the scheme opened' that may be the case, but is it due to the pro's of the scheme? Or is it due to less people going into that area, less vulnerable people daring to venture out? Judging by the shops going out of business i'd suggest it could be the latter. Im sure my mother isnt alone in the fact that she has stopped going there now, plenty of the more vulnerable people now will avoid these areas.

Let me make it plain i dont hate pedestrians, i dont hate cyclist (i do hate cyclists who dont stick to the highway code and then cry about being a 'vulnerable road user', but anywho). I got no problem with zebra crossings. I got no problem with pedestrianised areas where its feasible, some places have been fully pedestrianised for decades and it works. Places with 'shared spaces' are places they wanted to pedestrianise but the local layout was no good for loading vehicles behind shops etc so they still had to let vehicles go down the road, which shouldve proved right at the start that the area isnt feasible to change. I just believe in the democracy of the road. Having a pavement for people. A road for cars. And crossings for people to cross and to command vehicles to stop. To me thats sensible, not, as one Guardian journalist put it 'dating back to the times when cars were king and everyone else had to fit in around it'.

I ask all of you, what was so wrong with having a pavement for people and a road for cars? There'll be a cricket field in the middle lane of the M6 next, to make it "shared".

Jamie

Edited by jamie745 on 26/07/2011 at 03:27

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Tue 26 Jul 2011 10:55
Shared Space Schemes - Bobbin Threadbare

Ahoy Captain Ranty!

Nooo....the M6 is in the middle of Lancashire cricket pitch.

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Tue 26 Jul 2011 13:50
Shared Space Schemes - Chris M

jamie745

Would you consider going on a course to learn how to write concisely? I read your first paragraph, then realised the post went on forever................and gave up. You may have a valid point to make (and you very often do), but if I want to read a book, I'll buy a book.

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Tue 26 Jul 2011 14:01
Shared Space Schemes - jamie745

I cut four paragraphs out already to give the twitterers a chance of reading it (people who can only concentrate for 140 characters then get bored) but if i leave out anymore i wont say all i wish to say and will then get accused of leaving something out as people point stuff out to me which i had already said in my original post. Which can be very annoying.

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Tue 26 Jul 2011 14:34
Shared Space Schemes - Chris M

But jamie745, you wrote nearly one thousand words. It's supposed to be a post on a fun motoring forum, not a thesis.

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Tue 26 Jul 2011 14:35
Shared Space Schemes - jamie745

Funny, people will read a thousand words spread across several posts to catch up in a convo, but put it all in one and people come over all Twitterish again, lose concentration after 7 words and give up.

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Wed 27 Jul 2011 22:02
Shared Space Schemes - Avant

OK- I've had a go. Jamie, all the words are your own - just 294 of them, and your point is made, hopefully without people losing the will to live. Don't be like the cow that gives a good pail of milk and then kicks it over.

I’ve been reading about the protests in Southend from a disability rights campaign group who are demanding a crossing, and wheeled out zebra-crossing type matt thing and staged a protest with it.

I’ve experienced a few of the more minor ones recently, and I have to conclude, they are absolutely bonkers. My mother is disabled and cannot walk very far at all without considerable pain. Now in the past, our local little shopping bit was a street she could drive up, park outside the shop she wanted to go, on double yellows using her disabled badge, get out, walk in, come back and drive off. Well now that, say 150 yard stretch of road has been turned into a shared space, and she often has to park either in a nearby street or a main car park and take a 9 minute walk to wherever she wants to go, and this is too much for her.

I’m told the idea of the shared space is that the motorist and 'other road user' are to establish eye contact and decide who gives way to who. Well what about blind people?

Let me make it plain I don't hate pedestrians; I just believe in the democracy of the road. Having a pavement for people. A road for cars. And crossings for people to cross and to command vehicles to stop. To me that’s sensible, not, as one Guardian journalist put it 'dating back to the times when cars were king and everyone else had to fit in around it'.

I ask all of you, what was so wrong with having a pavement for people and a road for cars? There'll be a cricket field in the middle lane of the M6 next, to make it "shared".

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Wed 27 Jul 2011 22:29
Shared Space Schemes - unthrottled

I'm not convinced that the rationale for shared space schemes is sound. Urban road rules, for all their faults, are good levellers. Virtually no one would dare to breach a red light (but amber is fair game!) for instance. Shared space just exacerbates bad driving traits. The indicisive become more indicisive, and the thugs feel emboldened.

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Wed 27 Jul 2011 23:17
Shared Space Schemes - FP

Thanks, Avant. You have more patience than me. I'm pretty good at speed-reading, but I gave up on the original. It's not the length of it as such, but the superfluous side-issues, unnecessary detail and wordy phrasing that put me off.

Jame probably has a point.

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Wed 27 Jul 2011 23:20
Shared Space Schemes - Chris M

Dear Avant

I refer to your recent application for the post of jamie745's editor and am pleased to advise that you have been successful. Your appointment is effective immediately.

Yours sincerely

ChrisM

(on behalf of all backroomers with Twitterish tendencies)

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Wed 27 Jul 2011 23:31
Shared Space Schemes - unthrottled

Dear Back Roomers,

Over the past few years it has been a great pleasure and honour to moderate your inane and inarticulate debates. However, I now believe that in my dedication to HJ, I have neglected the annual reports from companies close to my heart such as Amalgamated Prunes and Conglomerated Biscuits.I hereby tender my resignation, effective immediately.

Yours Sincerely

Avant.

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Wed 27 Jul 2011 23:33
Shared Space Schemes - unthrottled

[Avant-get back in that forum-or else. HJ]

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Thu 28 Jul 2011 00:22
Shared Space Schemes - jamie745

Ive found traders hate these schemes also as it prevents people parking outside their shops, this results in places which used to rely on passing lunchtime trade etc to miss out as no longer convenient for people to visit that area for a quick stop off, its now parking up in a big car park, paying over the odds and a 4 month walk to get to the shop or food outlet or wherever. One i was in recently has around 10 empty shops with the To Let signs in them and one major high street chain now pulling out of the area, of course town planners will blame the economy but the chain in question isnt closing any of their other 60+ stores around the country and have attributed the closure due to the lack of custom since such scheme came in.

The problem is if you dare to broach this subject you get the clueless hippy nazi cyclist types coming out saying 'well where in the 21st century can you park outside a shop' which leaves me screaming 'HERE until last year you moron' its not a naturally forming metamorphic event, someone actually chose to pave over it all and take away what was a road for 120 years. Then you get the Guardian readers going 'if you dont like it its because you dont understand' oh yeah, we're thick, im thick, the traders are thick, disabilities charities are thick etc. *knocks own head* we're just not educated obviously! Then you get the ones saying "people dont like change so you'll always moan" which is an easy default response to give in place of having to form a proper answer and not worth listening to.

Its schemes invented by idealists who view cars as needless clutter which serve no purpose, they dont seem to realise those cars contain occupants who get out of their vehicle and spend money in their town, only they dont now because of a pro-pedestrian pro-cyclist agenda. Visit any cycling website and they'll all say 'they should just ban all cars so as its easier to cycle through it' so we should change everything just to suit you! *hands them small violin* The assumption that they can proceed with a hatrid of the motorcar, remove traffic and cars yet still keep visitor numbers and trade figures at the same level as before is idealist and niave to say the least.

Its part of an agenda against the motorcar also.

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Thu 28 Jul 2011 00:24
Shared Space Schemes - FP

Oh, God!

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Thu 28 Jul 2011 00:25
Shared Space Schemes - jamie745

I couldve said more but i get the feeling its best to dribble it instead of pour it all on at once.

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Thu 28 Jul 2011 00:57
Shared Space Schemes - Avant

No, Jamie - it's best to get your BRAIN in gear before your keyboard. Think what you want to say - which in fairness is often reasonable - and then make your point as clearly and concisely as possible.

When I teach effective writing courses to our firm's trainees I start and finish with the same phrase: "Think of the reader". Even on an informal forum like this, people don't want to have to wade through acres of verbiage.

And from your point of view you'll find yourself taken more seriously if you take this advice which as you can see isn't just from me.

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Thu 28 Jul 2011 01:20
Shared Space Schemes - jamie745

I like to include detail and information in the way i write so as nobody can accuse me of skimping over details or missing things out. I was tempted to take up a caveman style of speaking and go 'shared space, me no like, all bad, grrr' to appease the twitterers but i didnt.

Im someone who can touch type at 120wpm and my brain constantly comes up with more things as im typing, what starts out as one paragraph turns into 7 as i keep coming up with more things i want to say. But oddly away from the keyboard im not what anyone describes as a frequent talker, i actually work in some glorified form of management and nobody tells me i talk to much, im very to the point. Bottom line etc.

Edited by jamie745 on 28/07/2011 at 01:22

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Thu 28 Jul 2011 01:48
Shared Space Schemes - Dutchie
Good points jamie,glorified form of management sounds like a interesting job.:)
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Thu 28 Jul 2011 11:50
Shared Space Schemes - Bobbin Threadbare

This is one of the most amusing threads I've read for a while. I particularly enjoyed the turns of phrase e.g. 'hippy nazi cyclist types'.

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Thu 28 Jul 2011 14:08
Shared Space Schemes - FP

"... you'll find yourself taken more seriously if you take this advice..."

Interesting you should say that. The problem is that he doesn't actually care what anyone else thinks - in this case we're just "twitterers" who don't have the right set of skills. And he certainly doesn't like taking advice from anyone. Not exactly an incentive to discussion, is it?

Sorry - I've probably said too much, and it won't make any difference anyway. I should just go away.

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Thu 28 Jul 2011 14:44
Shared Space Schemes - Collos25

You cannot expect much more from a ten year old who still wears nappies.His missives are little like "War and Peace" or "The thoughts of Chairmen Mao" best left unread on the shelf.

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Thu 28 Jul 2011 15:06
Shared Space Schemes - Chris M

I think your comments are a little unfair Collas25. jamie745 makes some reasoned arguments on this forum - they're just a bit too wordy.

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Thu 28 Jul 2011 20:59
Shared Space Schemes - daveyjp

Shared space works really well in Countries with a population who still understand the concept of sharing and that pedestrians have priority over motorists - we are too far gone for it ever to work here - we have too many poeple whose job it is to tell us all what to do, so have streets full of signs, barriers, lights etc etc.

Stavangar has lots of shared space around the port and many Dutch towns have very little "road clutter".

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Thu 28 Jul 2011 22:20
Shared Space Schemes - jamie745

Pedestrians do have priority over motorists, on the pavement. Why do we have to believe the pedestrian has the god given right to just wander into the road with no care for anybody else? Its the motorist who would end up getting sued in an accident as the motorist is blamed for everything. You wouldnt say a car had priority over a train on train tracks would you? This whole 'pedestrians get priority' thing is just stupid, it encourages people to walk in front of moving vehicles and telling them 'it'll all be fine, you have priority'. Be like me telling children to wander into the Lions enclosure, its ok kids, you have priority. And in shared space nobody has priority, thats the whole point, so you clearly dont understand the concept either. Expecting cars, buses, trucks, cyclists and pedestrians to all get on well together with nobody having clear priority is asking for an absolute f***ing disaster.

Madness.

Edited by jamie745 on 28/07/2011 at 22:22

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Thu 28 Jul 2011 22:24
Shared Space Schemes - ukbeefy

The original idea was pioneered in the Netherlands by the late Hans Monderman who also has pushed forward the "naked" streets approach where the majority of traffic signage and signals are removed from all the streets in small towns - and various Nordic and German/Dutch cities have followed suit. It is a hard concept for many people to grasp - as much of it seems initially counterintuitive. however in some ways it goes back to how roads were before the introduction of a whole traffic management approach.

It works better on streets that are fairly lightly trafficked and that is where the majority of schemes are being implemented - where there are more non car movements - New Road in Brighton is an much talked about scheme which has turned an unpleasant back street into one of the most visted "places" in Brighton with a continuous bench down one side. It is no longer a basic thoroughfare and now is a place for more than just basic movement - surrounding businesses there report improved trade as the whole redesign of the street has brought footfall into the area - cafes now spread out further and more people get to the Theatre there too.Effectively it has become the "Ramblas" of Brighton.

Obviously it is not a solution for everywhere and requires really careful design and consultation but do remember many people use high streets by foot or by other non-car means and reducing the speed and dominance of cars helps others feel more able to enjoy the street as part of the public space of a town. There have been extensive research exercises on wayfinding for people with reduced or no sight in such schemes - Kensington and Chelsea Council have just completed a major piece of research involving the major disability charities on the new Exhibition Road scheme near to all the big museums. Wayfinding and boundaries to the "carriageway" there is provided by "cordroy" delineator strips running where the kerb used to be (and blind/partially sighted people were able to detect the marker to a very high confidence level). Have a look at publications like "Manual for Streets" and "Manual for Streets 2" on the DfT website to see the rationale behind shared streets.

It sounds like in your situation it is more the removal of parking that seems to cause your mother issues. Many schemes make provision especially for disabled parking - have you checked whether it is in fact okay to park in the shared space street while using a blue badge? I'd suggest calling the council to check.

Edited by ukbeefy on 28/07/2011 at 22:26

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Thu 28 Jul 2011 22:28
Shared Space Schemes - jamie745

I have checked and i have asked the authority and disabled parking is permitted ONLY in the marked out disabled bays. Where you can fit maybe 7 or 8 cars in if you're lucky, where you used to be able to fit 60 cars down that bit of road, alot of them with blue badges as this is an area with a large elderly, disabled and retired demographic and simple maths tells you 8 spaces isnt enough. You have maybe a 10% of getting a space where it used to be nigh on guaranteed. So my mother can only visit the town on 1 out of every 10 weeks then. Thanks council. And only people who are not disabled or have not had to help a disabled person for 15 years say 'theres plenty of space they can go elsewhere' and unfortunatley the people in charge of such horrific designs also havent had to experience the serious shortcomings and overall impracticality of such a stupid idea. If i got hold of the town planner and had him spend one day with my mother he'd realise what an awful mistake the shared space was. Awful mistake. And will not be rectified until its dug up and turned back into a road.

Edited by jamie745 on 28/07/2011 at 22:30

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