Is the Alfa Romeo brand the next one to fall? Their total sales have halved since 2001 and they have just cancelled their planned re-launch in to the US.
FIAT is apparently re-branding its Lancias as Chryslers in the US and may follow suit by selling Alfas under the Dodge brand! Eh? What on earth are they smoking in that boardroom!?! Do you think any Alfisti out there would switch to a Dodge?
Edited by Webmaster on 22/01/2010 at 01:14
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FIAT has proposals to sell re badged Lancias in markets where they have no presence. The Dodge - Alfa tie was mooted but since dismissed.
As to the future of Alfa it is worrying. They have a new Giulietta coming this year and a lot rides on it (how many times do they say that!).
Fact is though, it is replacing a 10 year old model in the 147, and the 159 is 5 years old this year. They simply dont spend enough on new product development.
The future of Alfa has 2 options according to Fiat, (1) is a freeze on investment - which would spell the end in a few years time or (2) basing the larger Alfa's (159 / 166) on existing or soon to be released new platforms from one of their other brands (eg Chrysler).
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Around here - Fiat seems to be like a badly wobbling plate at the top of a stick - never mind Alfa.
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Not sure they're in any sort of trouble at all. They certainly had the money to spend on beautiful folly like the 8C.
The MiTo is doing very well (and the lack of negative customer feedback seems to suggest its a well-made, dependable car).
Plus the unique and patented, MultiAir engines start rolling out shortly, including the 170bhp variant in the MiTo Cloverleaf, which has already had rave reviews from motoring press.
Granted, they need more success with larger models, where the real profits are, but I heard they're returning to RWD, which can only be a good thing.
If your looking for the next motoring basket case, then focus on SEAT. You read it here first....
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I don't understand what everyone is on about. Alfa sold 8% more cars in Europe last year.
Audi sold 7.8% LESS cars than the year before
BMW sold 13.6% LESS
MERCEDES 13.8% LESS
After Hyundai its the second best performing increase in sales!
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I don't understand what everyone is on about. Alfa sold 8% more cars in Europe last year.
Yes but 8% of not very much compared to say Audis 7.8% is pretty miniscule.
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Granted they need more success with larger models where the real profits are but I heard they're returning to RWD which can only be a good thing.
"....which can only be a good thing. "
Why do you RWD fans keep asserting this so glibly? Both RWD and FWD have their good and bad points, but not everyone likes RWD. (I personally will be glad to get rid of RWD when I can afford a change of car.)
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If a car is for transport i don't really care which wheels are driven or how bland it is. If a car is for driveing it really should be RWD although I would call the Evo or the Scoob OK. Mind you the Evo should be an RS to avoid the AYC and ABS that the official versions suffer from.
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@LikedDrivingOnce
You missed the point slightly. If Alfa are to compete as a premium, sporting marque they should offer a RWD car. This is a company that has always tried to lure 3-series and C-Class punters, with little success. Whatever the merits of RWD or FWD, many well-heeled buyers will accept nothing else, as RWD is directly assoicated with premium sector cars, and premium sector profits.
The striking Brera has largely failed as its a FWD car, with all the looks and stance of a RWD car. Yes, there's a 4WD 'Q4' one, but the drivetrain weighs the car down and its too expensive
Look at the success of the BMW 1-series. Would it have sold so many as a FWD car? Personally, I dont think so.
Alfa have the engines, no doubt about that. The diesels are superb. Now they need the car to put them in. They need a 'Jag XF' moment.
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If your looking for the next motoring basket case then focus on SEAT. You read it here first....
What information is that based on? I get the impression there are more SEATs around now than ever before. I don't know their sales figures but they must be up on a few years ago. Their dealers don't seem to have a good reputation for service, but the sales departments are pretty good at getting them through the door.
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@Armstrong Sid, HJ
SEAT is the sick child of VAG group. The new Ibiza is only in early life and will be eclipsed by the competitively priced new Polo. All the other cars are on the downhill of their sales life, they're still peddling the ancient Alhambra. It's telling that the only 4WD they offered was the slightly ludicrous Altea XL 4WD, which was like a Scenic 4x4 only 7 yrs too late. Skoda are the stars now, with they useful Octavia 4x4 estate and the excellent Yeti. ALso, the Exeo, a re-engineered last-gen Audi A4. A car that suggest a company treading water, at best.
Not surprising Walter Da Silva has moved on - his design stint at SEAT has done little for SEAT's bottom line. Lots of people have favourable comments on the looks of the cars, but not so many put their money into them.
Believe me, VAG might have posted a profit, but SEAT didnt contribute to it.
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SEAT is the sick child of VAG group. The new Ibiza is only in early life and will be eclipsed by the competitively priced new Polo.
There's been talk of SEAT closing for years and one issue they have is that in some areas SEAT dealerships are very thin on the ground. Many people simply won't buy a brand that doesn't have a local dealer.
We bought the last model Ibiza as it was way cheaper than the equiv Polo and the Polo of the time (late 2004) was stupidly basic - no remote locking, no a/c and it still had a cassette player! With typical ace VW dealer salesmanship the saleman fell about laughing at the suggestion that they should throw a CD player into the deal.
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Look at the success of the BMW 1-series. Would it have sold so many as a FWD car? Personally, I dont think so.
......
>>>>>>>>>> i think you will find most people that run these cars dont know it is rwd sulphur man
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has seat ever made more than one decent car?
i wont shed a tear if they bubble
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Sulfur ManQUOTE
If Alfa are to compete as a premium, sporting marque they should offer a RWD car. This is a company that has always tried to lure 3-series and C-Class punters, with little success. Whatever the merits of RWD or FWD, many well-heeled buyers will accept nothing else, as RWD is directly assoicated with premium sector cars, and premium sector profits.
>>END-QUOTE
No it isn't. Look at Audi - they kick BMW's and Mercedes' a$$! (Deliberately controversial because I am feeling bloshy)
Audi are primarily FWD and they have outperformed their competitors in recent years.
They also offer customers choices that neither BMW or Mercedes can match, i.e Quattro, DSG-Gearboxes, a premium hatchback (the A5), not to mention classier interiors. (Audi also offer a true supercar, which is more than BMW can do)
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>>Audi are primarily FWD and they have outperformed their competitors in recent years.
You must really hate your BMW LDO. I haven't been on here long enough to know your opinions in previous threads. But I'd like to know what you find so objectionable about RWD, apart from traction in the snow with the wrong tyres :-)
They also offer customers choices that neither BMW or Mercedes can match
Its a shame Audi can't match BMW for reliability.
Who wants DSG gearboxes when the cars are older? Just something else to go wrong.
BMW don't currently offer a supercar, but they show their expertise in other areas, like the V12 in the McLaren F1. Or the engines in Rolls Royce.
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BMW don't currently offer a supercar but they show their expertise in other areas like the V12 in the McLaren F1.
The McLaren F1 engine is actually made in the UK by Mercedes-Benz.
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The McLaren F1 engine is actually made in the UK by Mercedes-Benz
No, I am talking about the road going supercar, not the formula 1 racing car.
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Look at the success of the BMW 1-series. Would it have sold so many as a FWD car? Personally I dont think so. ...... >>>>>>>>>> i think you will find most people that run these cars dont know it is rwd sulphur man
Like the story of the A-Class Merc with snow chains on the rear wheels recently !
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"Lancias as Chryslers"
Dear me
(Not to mention Alfas as Dodges.)
Edited by Webmaster on 23/01/2010 at 01:24
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I'm a bit surprised that FIAT haven't adopted the VAG model hierarchy - with Audi at the top of the food chain & VW/Skoda/Seat gradually benefitting from the trickle down of technology.
If FIAT set Alfa or Lancia as their development 'test bed' & developed them consequently as upmarket high-tech brands, the evolved technology could then be used in the more humdrum FIAT range subsequently.
Look at s-tronic gearboxes & CR diesels at VAG: premiere in Audi for a year or two, then it finds its way into VW, Skoda etc. afterwards. One lot of development costs, many brand applications.
Works for VAG - why not FIAT?
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I hope Afa Romeo stay here. They have some of the prettiest cars on the road, though admittedly I don't have the guts to own one (and therein lies the problem perhaps). The Brera is just beautiful to look at, and a huge improvement over lacklustre designs such as the 33 or 75.
The first car I bought was an Alfasud, rather foolishly, and although it rusted away before my eyes, it had soul.
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CoraxI'd like to know what you find so objectionable about RWD
Actually, I don't find RWD objectionable at all - just the assumption implied by some posters that because it is "better" for them then it is better for everyone.
I love this forum, because I love engineering. In reality, I am a worse than average driver. The only time that I notice that I have RWD is when the car misbehaves in situations when a FWD would not. However, I fully appreciate that better drivers than me can actually feel the better balance, steering and handling that RWD gives them. I don't feel this pleasure, I only see the downside.(BTW, SWMBO is a keen driver and loves to drive my car).
With my low level of skill I need FWD or AWD.
As an aside, I'm a fan of BMW as well. I was being deliberately provocative. BMW are a premier league manufacturer IMHO who make some brilliant cars. And, yes you are right, they are more reliable than Audi. (But not as pretty as Alfas) :-)
Edited by LikedDrivingOnce on 22/01/2010 at 19:00
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Indeed, if you put everyday drivers (even ones who think they can drive) in a Beemer 3 series and an equivalent Mondeo then stuck 'em on a race track, 95% of them would lap faster in the Ford. FWD is far more driver friendly unless you're trying to put down monster horsepower.
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95% of them would lap faster in the Ford.
I've driven both extensively (in the Mondeo's case for years) and there's absolutely no way that's correct.
I'm not a BMW fan, but I had a 3 series from work for a while and it's the only car I've used where, on several occasions, I "took the long way home". And I'm going back a bit - the latest ones with loads of electronics could be driven brutally and they'd keep the driver out of trouble.
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With my low level of skill I need FWD or AWD
I see where you're coming from LDO. I find it thrilling if the back of the car flicks out, and I find correcting that more natural than trying to correct a car where the front pushes wide. In fact my Alfasud used to be terrible for that (probably the cheap tyres!). I found it quite unnerving in the wet.
I don't know if you've had Audis before, but they would probably suit you well. I've had two; compared to BMW's they are supremely stable and re-assuring on the road, they drive themselves. I remember reading an Audi magazine and an engineer explaining that they deliberately set the toe, camber and castor on the suspension to achieve the above. BMW's are more lively. Pugugly summed it up when he said he likes a live wheel.
What we need is a car that looks like an Alfa, has an interior like an Audi, and is as reliable as a BMW. Maybe! :-)
Edited by corax on 22/01/2010 at 19:26
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What we need is a car that looks like an Alfa, has an interior like an Audi, and is as reliable as a BMW. Maybe! :-)
Or a few combinations. The exterior of most Alfas are great aren't they and Audi cannot be beaten on interior at the moment (apart from some other VAG group cars).
BMW are now boring outside and in but drive well. I'd personally go for an Audi over both. A nice Audi A5 Sportback or similar.
But we digress... I don't think Alfa will follow Saab. I hope Saab survives as well. GM nearly had to buy FIAT and they triggered to clause which I assume means FIAT had money and GM didn't (money for the 500 maybe?)....
Edited by rtj70 on 22/01/2010 at 19:33
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Considering the cars that Alfa have produced I wont be sorry to see them go. Great looks but everything else is poor.
SAAB i liked, even bought one and enjoyed it. Sorry to see that go GM are to blame for that.
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I used to love my SAAB 900 Turbo, probably the worst handling FWD car ever ++ with understeer becoming lift-off oversteer in the wet (it was a hoot coming out of roundabouts sideways!) but the character of the car shone through.
++ scratch that I remember trying to drive a Talbot Rancho spiritedly - I've never been so scared in all my life.
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Is this purely about how a car handles in this thread? I thought it was about Alfa Romeo. And I don't mean to say they have poor handling.
Edited by rtj70 on 22/01/2010 at 21:36
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Who is it who posts on Usenet groups with the sig:
'You're not a petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa'?
Some hasty signature editing in store, no doubt ;)
Alfa = Dodge???? - surely one of the most unlikely transmogrification's possible? (although Lancia = Chrysler is also a pretty good effort)
Only Rolls Royce = Reliant would top 'em ;)
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