|
We also do not know the size of the passengers. If there's a few six footers then there will be some discomfort. I was once in a Zafira with 4 others. One was 6' 5" and another over 6' and neither was the driver. There was not a lot of room to be honest. And there were meant to be 6 of us but one dropped out luckily.
|
I've only just cottoned on to this thread :-(. I'm not sure whether the OP is angling for a more spacious car, or two cars. It must depend on the size of the occupants (are they all 14 stone?) and whether the meeting really needs all 5 - would 4 of them do? But even large cars don't always have a lot of rear legroom. Maybe it depends on how well the 5 get on ... but the journey itself may also be a consideration - easy or pure aggro?
While I was with ICI (in the early 80s I think) there were regular flights between M'cr and Teesside, and on one of them several senior managers perished. Needless to say the rules of business travel were revised as a consequence.
|
|
|
Five in a Focus is a bit tight, so I would take my own car/make my own way without any reference to my employers.
I'd get the journey back on expenses one way or the other.
|
|
|
|
Cracking responses all thanks. Just to clarify I was neither occupant nor involved with arranging the journey in question... but am advising those concerned. Some thoughts/responses...
I am very against wasted business journeys and you will just have to accept this one was essential for those concerned.
It would be very naive of any manager to think there was always pleasure in such a "jaunt" so that staff should be grateful and put up with whatever,
It would also be very naive of any manager to think they had scored a success by saving £30 (I'm guessing) by providing a cramped car.... when the overall cost of the day with wages, meeting room, meals, overheads etc might be £1500. Perhaps more importantly when decisions taken at the meeting might involve tens or even hundreds of thousands of pounds and future company strategy.... I'd want my staff to feel fresh, relaxed and on-side!
gmac you raise important points about actual person sizes. You measure about the same as me with a body width inc arms across the back of 55cm so three of us modest size guys take up 165cm... yet the rear seat/cabin width of the Focus is given as 138cm so something has to give.
Ohh and I did comment earlier in the thread there was no need to change the forum light bulb... I see Nowheels is already at the top of the ladder holding a low energy option :-) Actually I'm pretty keen on the best use being made of transport (both people and goods). Before worrying about the odd perhaps unjustified business journey I'd nationalise all post and parcel delivery so we didn't get 10 different vans down the road each carrying 4 packets... and obviously I'd stop all out of town buses which take up a lot of energy and road space for just 5 passengers.
Finally I am quite taken aback at anyone who apparently wants to save the planet forgetting its people..... regarding employees *daring* to raise concerns as whining.... get down that pit lad, never mind the state of the props or risk of gas eh?
|
It would also be very naive of any manager to think they had scored a success >> decisions taken at the meeting might involve tens or even hundreds of thousands of pounds and future company strategy... >>
Tell the owners of the Company to sack the manager pronto, otherwise the Company and its employees are all doomed.
so three of us modest size guys >>
I think the latest UK average size for men is 5'10" height and 12.5 stones weight, 40" hips and 37" waist.
Edited by jbif on 10/11/2009 at 11:11
|
On risk to business from single event - take 2 cars. Solves the comfort issue as well.
Suggest your fleet manager reads up on corporate manslaughter. How well does a Focus handle with 5 in it? Last one I drove had four adults plus bags in boot (full), don't know where the fifth would sit!
Even better borrow a focus and put all five in it, ask the manager to close the rear door . . . Should make the point.
To put a slightly different twist on this our company car rules say four seats . . .
Several people have minis! Some have Civics
Four large gentlemen in a mini????
At 6' 2" I can't sit in the back of a Civic, My head hits the roof lining before my back reaches the seat squab!
Edited by ijws15 on 10/11/2009 at 11:30
|
|
|
Silly really expecting 5 decent size fellows to arrive fresh and useful after 3 hours packed into a medium hatch.
If cost is the problem one of the chaps or one of their manager's must have a proper car in their use, just use that car and grant a decent amount for mileage, or indeed use a second car.
5 of us travelled only 20 miles each way a month ago in a Grand Punto to a company meeting....thats the first and last time, even half an hour left us cramped.
3 x 15+ stone blokes in the back of a smallish car is ridiculous.
|
If the centre rear seat has not got a diagonal and lap seat belt then refure it on safety grounds. Pete D
|
|
I'm pretty sure most medium/large cars have three full seat belts these days. The fact that my wife's old Xsara just has a middle lap belt is a significant factor in us changing it soon as we now end up carrying the kids friends about all the time and often have three teenagers in the back. I would never carry another persons child in just a lap belt.
|
|
The main thing here is whether the person who'll be driving the car is a good driver or not. This is one vital area where Health & Safety is strangely silent, inactive even. It seems OK for a company to expect employees to ride in a car driven by any Tom, Dick or Harriet as long as they've got a driving licence.
|
All this stuff about health and safety reminds me of a mate who took youngsters on outward bound-style trips.
He went on a health and safety course during which the instructor asked what was the greatest threat to the young people?
Hypothermia, getting lost, running out of water, fallling and breaking a leg, were some of the answers.
"Nope," says the instructor. "By far the greatest threat is from a road accident in the minibus on the way to or from the site."
|
|
Just make sure nobody has a curry the night before. My main concern would be 5 guys breaking wind for 6 hours in a small closed enviroment.
Edited by rtj70 on 10/11/2009 at 13:03
|
Just make sure nobody has a curry the night before. My main concern would be 5 guys breaking wind for 6 hours in a small closed enviroment.
>>
Bunch of wimps if they cant handle that, try a submarine in the tropics with no aircon and a crew of 50!
|
try a submarine in the tropics with no aircon and a crew of 50!
Does it make much difference where the submarine is submerged? I know topic drift.
|
|
It makes a difference in a diesel submarine which is only submerged part of the time and / or is taking in air to run diesel engines. Nuclear powered submarines have a closed atmosphere and are not effected by external atmospheric temperature or humidity.
Edited by Old Navy on 10/11/2009 at 14:41
|
try a submarine in the tropics with no aircon and a crew of 50!
I expect that would need 'venting' now and then. Would the odour reveal your position to a surface 'sniffer'?
|
The atmosphere in a diesel submarine is changed when the engines are run.
There are aircraft with diesel exhaust "sniffers" or at least there were in my day.
Edited by Old Navy on 10/11/2009 at 14:52
|
|
There must be a trail of bubbles from the galley extractor fan vent??
|
|
Ah, you have seen the movie. :-)
|
|
Don't need to look for bubbles these days just a black soot trail where the DPF has started regenerating :)
|
>>It makes a difference in a diesel submarine which is only submerged part of the time
Not really a true submarine then ON - it's a submersible boat/ship.
|
Not really a true submarine then ON - it's a submersible boat/ship.
>>
Correct, and much ribbing resulted when the RN operated both types, and discussions as to which were "real" submarines. The diesels or the new fangled steam ones. Both have their operational advantages.
|
|
|
I am very against wasted business journeys and you will just have to accept this one was essential for those concerned.
MM, I'm sure you genuinely believe it was essential, and I'm not suggesting you are overstating your case. Nor do I want to try to push you into revealing more about the business involved.
However, there is a culture in many businesses of people travelling to meetings, a culture so long-standing that it's easy to regard such travel as essential. It's the way that business has been done for decades, and it's an expected way of doing things. But as you rightly point out, it's very expensive -- maybe £1500 per day to send the Focus Five out on the road -- and when times are tough I'm astonished that more mangers don't rethink that sort of practice, as per the example I cited.
In saying that, I'm not actually looking at it from the perspective of environment or natural resources. Those matter, but the big issue I see here is the hugely costly way of doing business, which was the sort of thing I have had to rethink as a self-employed businesswoman and later as a campaigner. I have seen this happening in other organisations too, and to my mind the big question that I would expect senior management to be asking about this sort of operation is "one of our big costs is spending £1500 a day to keep the Focus Five on the road, so please will somebody quickly find a way of avoiding this?"
Finally I am quite taken aback at anyone who apparently wants to save the planet forgetting its people..... regarding employees *daring* to raise concerns as whining.... get down that pit lad never mind the state of the props or risk of gas eh?
:-)
I'm actually very pro-people ... but like Humph, I'm bemused at the way in which some people in the developed world have come to regard very high standards of comfort as the basic minimum. Travelling in cramped conditions? It's the norm for most people in most countries, including this one -- I'm not the only person to have spent many years commuting into town from the London suburbs in trains 7 tubes so crowded that I was in constant body contact with several other people, and it's the same for most of those who take a bus in the rush hour. That's the daily norm for a large chunk of the population of the UK, who would regard a seat in a Focus as the height of luxury.
So if really believed that it was essential to spend £1500 of my company's money on sending five dudes off for the day, I'd have little sympathy with their whines ... but even less sympathy with the line manager who didn't have the wit to fork out the extra fiver for a bigger car to stop them whining. But I'd still be asking all of them (Focus Five plus line manger) why they weren't exerting all their brain power to save the £1500.
|
Or to paraphrase.... if one of them took ill / family emergency etc and couldn't make it, would the whole trip need to be cancelled?
Or would the other 4 be able to make do?
|
|
At risk of drifting slightly off topic here... A holder of a pre-1992 GB driving licence is allowed to drive a 15 seat minibus (not for hire or reward) and up to a certain size and weight of car-coupled trailer IIRC, with no extra training involved. I once hired a minibus to ferry my inlaws (party of 8 in total) from LHR to the Midlands for a family wedding a decade ago. All safely belted in and, despite one or two wobbly moments on the M1 (on two occasions a white van man suddenly pulled into my lane) all went well. But I shudder looking back and wouldn't dream of doing it again now. I also shudder to wonder how many drivers in a similar position to me are legally allowed to drive similar vehicles up to the age of 70 (that's a lot of drivers with 35 years of minibus entitlement to run!) Statistically there can't be that many "occasional" minibus drivers about, although it is one of the categories of vehicles exempt from the Congestion Tax, so there may be a lot more than we think. In any case, the prospect is a bit scarier than 5 adults in a Focus, IMHO.....
|
|
|
Similar to a Girls Aloud gig I suppose... a below par performance and disapointed people but possible.
But that's not the point. For the purposes of the thread you have to assume all 5 are needed or 4 could have gone in a Fiesta with no problems.
After all it could have been that we pruned 10 down to 5 to avoid taking two cars???
|
I have not read this thread,but in my opinion your company should mind their own business,
your sex life is up to you....
|
|
|
Company I used to work for in the UK had a rule for hire cars. Up to 4 people, Ford Focus. 5 or more people, Mondeo or 2 Focuses. The driver had to list the passengers in their travel expenses claim and this was cross checked with the expenses claims from the listed passengers.
I fell foul of this rule once as I arrived at an airport to find that our corporate travel agency had forgotten to reserve a car for me and I had to take what was there, which was a Mondeo at an additional expense of 10 quid or so for the day compared to the Focus. My employer's controlling department rejected my expenses claim and I had to get a special exemption signed by my boss in order to be reimbursed. Just think of the waste involved in that process!
I've not worked in the UK for 10 years now, but with hindsight the number of self important jobsworths and controllers haunting UK corporate life was astonishing.
|
|
|
What is the policy of those involved in business car use with regard to 5 decent sized guys being expected to travel long distances in a Focus for business meetings?
Is this a hypothetical question then. We've had lots of answers and thread drift (I've been guilty of the latter).
So what else does M.M want to know? The two opinions are:
- five should fit and don't complain
- five won't fit comfortably and either take a bigger car or two cars (or public transport)
If there's no more point to this thread then no more replies needed now? I don't think we'll reach any consensus on this one.
|
Damned if I'd go 200 miles in a Focus with four other sweating executives in plastic suits. And if they were a bit classier than that, all cufflinks and aftershave like fascist-era Portuguese diplomats, it would be even worse.
No thanks. I'd take another car and try and strike a deal with the least offensive of the other suits to go halves on the juice. That's what I'd do.
|
I'd take another car and try and strike a deal with the least offensive of the other suits to go halves on the juice. That's what I'd do.
Spot on. In fact, include the other three in the whip round since they benefit as well.
|
|
Assuming you're insured to use the car on company business of course. And the company is happy for you to use your car for company business.
|
|
I wouldn't even ask rtj. And if the company gave me any cheek I'd tell it what to do.
|
Lud, I suspect now after M.M's question there is no answer that will satisfy.
I know I'd not go in a car with four others. And I've already said how I'd put management in a position where they have to offer a realistic alternative. Especially if one or two passenger are either taller or wider than the average.
As M.M says this is not a cost saving so why the question. Which is why I wonder what the point of this thread is now.
|
>>>>>>Is this a hypothetical question then. We've had lots of answers and thread drift (I've been guilty of the latter).
>>>>>>If there's no more point to this thread then no more replies needed now? I don't think we'll reach any consensus on this one..
>>>>>>As M.M says this is not a cost saving so why the question. Which is why I wonder what the point of this thread is now.
You'll remember I simply asked "What is the policy of those involved in business car use with regard to 5 decent sized guys being expected to travel long distances in a Focus for business meetings"
It was a motoring question with a business bias and I thought well suited to the Backroom. I did not get as many answers from those that could (or were willing) to divulge company/personal policy as I'd hoped but the response was otherwise excellent (including your several replies rtj70) and the drift was minimal.
I'm somewhat puzzled at an attempt to apparently undermine the validity of my question or my right to pose it here???
Edited by M.M on 10/11/2009 at 21:37
|
I wasn't undermining the question - I don't think it was answered that well, i.e. the original question. It sort of meandered. No problem with the question at all.
We have a company policy on travel. But I'll not post that here. Covers how many can be on a plane, in a car, etc. Don't think we'd be expected to do what you suggest - in fact we could all turn up in separate cars if we wanted. Or some in cars, some on trains and depending on distance some on planes - obviously not saying this is from the same start location.
|
Ahh that's OK then as I have two car questions to ask tomorrow... and one computer one too... so I'll go ahead with them.
It was perhaps annoying to some it was imposssible to divulge the company, exact circumstances, guys weights etc... but it just has to be left at that for privacy reasons.
I do genuinely appreciate all the answers despite having to mention the forum light bulb twice... well three times now.
|
When we had to make a trip in the Zafira with 5 (originally 6) it was not a comfortable ride for one person. Me - in the rear seats which I quickly found have no legroom at all. But in front and middle row were 6' plus so the middle bench was pushed back a lot.
Would I have driven instead - not an option? Not an option as this was not Britain.
Edited by rtj70 on 10/11/2009 at 21:53
|
I've mentioned elsewhere that after a long absence from corporate life I'm back in the thick of such an arrangement. I do recall though that the more trivial company policies were most rigourously enforced upon the least effective members of staff.
If you were any good you only had to pay lip service to such things. If you were very good it was more or less unnecessary to give them a second thought.
Things may have changed now though. I imagine any deviation from script would start all manner of internal email driven ping pong.
If your meeting has been completed I do hope it went well and if the ardous journey is yet to be undertaken in such reduced circumstances I believe flight socks can help.......
;-)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
