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That was my point too L'escargot. You cannot compare PC parts with car parts - my home PC is now 3 years old. I cannot upgrade the CPU to a faster one because it's a Pentium 4 660. I cannot drop a core2 duo or quad in because that will need a new motherboard - and also new memory. At that point I'd might as well buy/build a new PC.
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I am still not entirely convinced. I am sure the manufacturers and can do more to standardise components, I know this has happened more in the past ten years e.g VAG.
What ever the logistics the bottom line is the consumer is being robbed with a £200 TPS.
As for ECUs there really dosn't seem to be much to them, yes I know the casing is very strong and solid, and they use higher grade capacitors but there are very few components inm the ECU itself.
I think the manufacturers need to work on making the ownership of cars lower like Kia has attempted to with their 7 year warranty. At times like this if somebody still owes £3000 on say a Vauxhall Corsa which is 3.5 years old and has a snapped camshaft it reallty could be the end of the world for them, and since VX may not being that helpful with over inflated retail prices I am sure their next car will be something else.
I know a few people who will not buy another Renault purely because they were charged over £80 just for a new head lamp, ok it may not be the dealers fault but the design was stupid.
I just think people need to think long and hard about it, if we made cars more standard it would make cars cheaper to fix and would partly solvwe the logistics problems on parts.
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"A motor factor over the year will average between 32-36% profit margin"
Quite a good average figure for most factors from my knowledge. A large national chain often mentioned in here actually achieved nearly 40% last year!
Main dealers operate at a much higher margin than factors, so make your own opinions.
35% Gross Profit (or therabouts) on the turnover most decent factors will achieve is pretty good imo. Judge it by the amount of factors going bust in this credit crunch? especially since the motor trade is collapsing! I dont know of any in this area that are going under! Bear in mind the low margin stuff they have to sell too.
My friend is quite happy with his standard of living from his factor business, as I am with my repairs and sales. But the dealers are the ones who are struggling? Maybe its a business problem, not a pricing problem?
Main dealers, who are the ones with the much dearer prices are the ones who are guilty of the overpricing. They carry less than a factor, for less vehicles, with a much higher stock turn and have a quicker availability backup system too, and then at a higher margin!
Dealers carry very little slow or dead stock, they just buy it in from suppliers (not necessarily the vehicle assembler either) and sell at handsome margins. Even older vehicle parts are not necessarily stored even in the vehicle assembler system; but made available from their suppliers.
I dont shed many tears for the main dealer and vehicle assembler network. To afford their glass palaces they must have been making some money somewhere; and if its not from selling cars..........
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My wife had a Citroen ZX car for over three years.
We bought it very cheaply, she did a high mileage in it, so it did need a lot of repairs.
In that time, we spent £30 on spare parts from Citroen. We spent £1200 mainly at the two well known national motor factor chains, but also at local motor factors and scrap yards.
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Main dealers operate at a much higher margin than factors so make your own opinions.
Im sorry.....you MUST live in a dream world! I have worked on both sides, and the factors DO have a higher margin than dealers.
Main dealers who are the ones with the much dearer prices are the ones who are guilty of the overpricing.
Prices are set by the manufacturer NOT the dealers.....
They carry less than a factor for less vehicles witha much higher stock turn and have a quicker availability backup system too and then at a higher margin!
WRONG again.....factors on the whole only keep fast moving stuff, probably with a stock turn of over 10 a year... as i said dealers look at a stock turn of 4 or above...
Dealers carry very little slow or dead stock they just buy it in from suppliers (not necessarily the vehicle assembler either) and sell at handsome margins.
TOTAL carp...... if a dealer gets caught selling non-genuine parts they are at risk of loosing the franchise!
I dont shed many tears for the main dealer and vehicle assembler network. To afford their glass palaces they must have been making some money somewhere; and if its not from selling cars..........
Really??? as I said before, the money 'was' made in the workshop, and the used car sales...Now, sales are down, and people are holding back on repairs, and dealers are closing everywhere... now IF we were making these huge margins you think we are, why is that so many are going down the pan?
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Ive been both sides of the counter at dealers, and at factors. Got friends at both places too. Got my eyes open.
Your info is wrong on so many counts. Factors carry stock for the whole vehicle parc from A to Z from 1970's thru to 2000's. Dealers carry the 1 (or 2) makes from around 2004 onwards, other parts generally to order. Not quite sure how you think a factor will have a better stock turn? Most will be happy for a stockturn of 4. Dealers in my area wont keep a part in stock unless it moves once a month ! Work that 1 out?
Prices are set by the vehicle assembler I agree, but they also set them high !
And dealers dont sell non genuine parts? Dont make me laugh ! On the invoice, the part is highlighted with * and a covering statement along the lines of "Part sourced from alternative supply". If the network cant supply an OE part in time then of course the dealers source parts as required. As you know its dearer to keep a car in a workshop taking up space rather than source a dearer part and move it on.
And in all my years I have never know any main dealer to have a decently profitable service department yet. Too much equipment, training, tooling, consumables, H&S requirements, mechanic down time etc etc etc. The aim is generally to break even, achieve small profit if possible. Its the parts departments that carry the profit for the glass palaces!
But when a dealer supplies an IDENTICAL part, from the same manufacturer, at vastly different prices than other suppliers of that part, then people will obviously accept that there is a bigger margin !
But we going to have to agree to disagree I suspect.
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And in all my years I have never know any main dealer to have a decently profitable service department yet.
A neigbour of mine works in accounts at a Peugeot dealer and told me that the service department is the only part of the dealership that makes significant money.
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> A neigbour of mine works in accounts at a Peugeot dealer and told me that the service department is the only part of the dealership that makes significant money.
Thank you Bill Payer....and of course people are holding back on servicing / repairs, so in most dealers the workshops are not busy..... hence so many dealers going to the wall right now.
I really would like to know which dealers make massive parts profits, so I can get a job there and be able to pay my bills.......
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>> And in all my years I have never know any main dealer to have a >> decently profitable service department yet. A neigbour of mine works in accounts at a Peugeot dealer and told me that the service department is the only part of the dealership that makes significant money.
I used to work as an Analyst for one of the biggest dealership groups in the country. Part of my role was to benchmark and compare profitability by department across all the dealers.
Typical departmental profit margin (sales less cost of sales less cost of parts staff) for a parts department was 25%.
Typical department profit for a service department would be higher at around 33%.
These would usually be the only parts of the dealership that made any money to pay for the dealership overheads (rent, rates, admin staff, interest on loans etc).
Average dealership profitability would be in the region of 0-1.0% and I left the motor trade before the economic downturn. I expect that almost all dealerships will be making losses at the moment.
My experience of the motor trade makes me think that TheOilBurner, the swiss tony and carrow are closer to reality than yorkiebar.
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>Part of my role was to benchmark and compare profitability by department across all the dealers.
I don't suppose those analyses were easy to tie down. I changed cars last week at a long-established Peugeot dealer; the screen price on the 8-month-old 207 was competitive (about a grand below WhatCar's valuation) and the offer for my 306 was par (not much flexibility around the 1K mark). But the sell and buy prices entered on the bill of sale were adjusted by several hundred so that less went down the VAT plughole, the difference being called a 'Used Car Discount'. I was not surprised by that - I have seen it before - but it may make 'profitability' harder to measure and compare.
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"My experience of the motor trade makes me think that TheOilBurner, the swiss tony and carrow are closer to reality than yorkiebar."
It doesnt matter to me who is right and who is wrong, and where profits are made or not.
But I am no novice to the motor trade.
Just look at parts prices and discounts available and given though? Way different to what you are led to believe on here by some. Disounts of 25% are regularly given, but we are told there is only a mark up of around 15 - 20%. Compare Peugeot and Citroen identical parts but priced differently by huge amounts etc. Vauxhall trade club prices too?
Believe who and what you want.
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I am sure the manufacturers and can do more to standardise components ..........
If and when I buy my next new car I will want it to have the very latest technology. With all due respects, I will not want it to contain anything that was used in a 1996 Fiesta!
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Buty how much technology moves on? Surely preasure caps, brake fluid caps, hoses, radiators, water pumps, alternators, starter motors etc could be standard on all cars? Eidt I realise different cars need different fittings due to reasons of space, but I am sure more cars could use more standard parts./
Edited by Rattle on 20/12/2008 at 14:18
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Parts ARE getting more standardised BUT there are parts that have to be different
think about it, if all parts were the same throughout the industry, we would all be driving around in identical cars.... truth is the customer DEMANDS a choice
why are there so many different choices of motherboards, video, sound cards, hard drives... PC cases... etc..... surely it would be better if all PC parts were identical.... that would make rattles job a lot easier??
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I recently got quoted £32 for a genuine air filter for my Charade - needless to say I left it on the shelf.
I did have to purchase a new sun visor though at £39 which seems alot for what it is.
Still, its the sam evisor as in the Sirion, so parts are subtley used across ranges.
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Buty how much technology moves on? Surely ......... hoses radiators water pumps alternators starter motors etc could be standard on all cars?
The particular design restraints and performance, quality and durability requirements of different manufacturers and different models make it impossible for there to be much in the way of standardisation.
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With all due respects I will not want it to contain anything that was used in a 1996 Fiesta!
If you said the 1976 Ford Fiesta you still wouldn't get your wish L'escargot.
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>If we made cars more standard it would make cars cheaper to fix ..
Having now moved from eighties and nineties cars (205 & 306) to a noughties one (207) it is clear how design has changed, from owners being able to do many maintenance tasks to doing almost none - a way to protect vehicles from bunglers, but more essentially to protect garages' servicing income. Handbooks now reveal how to change bulbs, wheels and not much else. And to help in all this, many jobs are best done on a hoist, which few owners have.
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I am doing going to be deafeted, I am sick of taking my car into a garage when things I can do myself need doing. After christmas I am going to buy a good trolleyjackl and some axle stands.
I am not going to start messing with brakes or suspension but I can at least do things like that reverse switch, oil changes etc myself.
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[Buying a trolley jack]
Keep an eye open on LIDL. Once a year they stock ones, as sold elsewhere for more money. I went back and bought a second one. One each side under the front jacking points, for instance, will quickly lift the front.
As you know, by your intended use of axle-stands, those getting under cars should use back-up support, just in case the support collapses. I am always wary that the patch of concrete I am using may not be as good as it looks.
Edited by buzbee on 20/12/2008 at 20:46
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[Buying a trolley jack]
Why buy two? You can only reach one at a time, so lift one side, axle stand under and repeat on other side. Machine Mart do some good quality jacks and stands at good prices.
Edited by Old Navy on 20/12/2008 at 20:49
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........ I am sick of taking my car into a garage when things I can do myself need doing.
If you got rid of your ill-fated Fiesta and bought something more reliable you wouldn't need to visit a garage so often!
;-)
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>but there are very few components inm the ECU itself.
You're complaining that they have reduced the component count?
You really don't understand electronic design or manufacture do you?
It is intentional and good design. Fewer components - less to go wrong, better reliability and lower manufacturing cost.
Kevin...
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I had to replace a lambda sensor in May this year for a Zetec engined Ford. The local Ford dealership quoted me £122!!
The local factor had one in stock for £35. I've now made it a matter of principle never to go back to the dealer again unless there are no alternatives. Frankly it's more than scam, it's insulting.
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£122 is not actually that bad I have read of a lot of worse quotes. Was your £35 designed to fit a Focus or did it require soldering? Some of the cheap lambdas are generic and not always ideal.
Kevin I am not complaining about less parts, I am just compaining about people being charged £1000 for port that consists of a few capacitors and a processor which is about as powerful as a 386 DX. The research and development of the ECU should be covered in the price of the car, not some poor sod who owns the car 4 years later.
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Kevin I am not complaining about less parts I am just compaining about people being charged £1000 for port that consists of a few capacitors and a processor which is about as powerful as a 386 DX. The research and development of the ECU should be covered in the price of the car not some poor sod who owns the car 4 years later.
Rattle... how about looking at your own industry before saying such things?
There are many parallels in both industries!
IF R&D was paid for in the machine price you would never be able to buy a computer for £300, same applies with cars.
think about it, a production run for a car is about 5 - 7 years now, with facelifts in that time.. where the car will last upwards of 10 years, and require parts replacing (but not as many as yesteryear....)
The ECU you mention will have software in it, which like Windows is regularly updated (people who never go to a dealer can miss out on updates!) to help the vehicle preform better...
Remind me Rattle, How much is a copy of windows now?
I have built my own computers, so I have an idea of the prices, and I believe that the difference in regards a built up car/computer and the same thing in 'spares' plus software, isnt as large as you seem to think....
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Rattle. Re the lamda sensor. It was an identical part to the one it replaced. No soldering required as it had the correct electrical connectors for the wiring. It may or may not have been made by the OEM supplier, who knows these days?
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just been watching an old 'on the buses episode on t.v (and the 2008 award for most dubious motoring link goes too.......)and and one of them has just complained about a big plate of food costing him 12 of the new p (this was filmed in 1971) and you think we have it bad :-)
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Bear in mind Richie W, that the dealer, via the assembler, will have a much better purchase price than the factor; regardless of how they will tell you they work on no margin!
Glass palaces require more than turnover, they need margin too.
Find me the workshop that makes more than a parts department and I will find a hat to eat! MOT's are hated at delear level generally because they operate below cost price; subsised by the workshop generally. And they bring in around £ 50 anhour. So at £ 80 hour, and a full and busy workshop (thats not often in the normal times let alone now) they are making loads of money there and not the parts counter?
I really must believe more of what I am told rather than what I know though ! :)
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Find me the workshop that makes more than a parts department and I will find a hat to eat!
I spent 4 years benchmarking and analysing dealership profitability. I don't think I ever saw a parts department make more money than a service department.
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We are going to contiinue going round in circles then.
My contacts and info all tell me opposite and I have no reason to disagree.
Quite simply I know how much a workshop costs to run on a small basis. magnify it! I also know how much discounts are given on parts (none to retail usually). magnify that? Add in the cost of staff in Parts (laughng now) and work that out too.
Now, it may be the way it is shown in accounting, but it doesnt take a rocket scientist to work out where profits are made !
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Yorkie, I wish I had your contacts, coz I AM speaking as I have found, and I have been in the trade many years, and worked at different franchises from the bottom to the top end of the markets, and honestly I have NEVER seen the margins you claim...
tinyurl.com/e90p
with regards MOT's, yes.. they is no money in doing them, but if you get a car which fails, then hopefully you make some on the repairs, and most places will not fail just to get work.
discounts on parts? getting common now just to get the work in the workshop... often at 10-15% off retail.
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>Kevin I am not complaining about less parts, I am just compaining about people being
>charged £1000 for port that consists of a few capacitors and a processor which is about
>as powerful as a 386 DX.
But it is not a 386!
As I've tried to explain, it is a collection of custom built ASICs that have been designed to withstand temperatures between -50C and +50C while being shaken about under the hood of a car. You are paying for the component quality not the "power". You could stick the fanciest quad-core super dooper 5GHz processor in there and it wouldn't last ten minutes never mind ten years.
>The research and development of the ECU should be covered in the price of the car, not some
>poor sod who owns the car 4 years later.
What do you tell a customer who's 4 year old PC has just cooked it's CPU?
"Don't worry, the cost of a new CPU and motherboard is covered by R&D costs. I'll only charge for labour."
Kevin...
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On a four year old computer I would sadly say its time to through it in the bed, and yes it is due to labour costs rather than parts. I used to replace motherboards, but I would find I would only make £50 on each job, and would have to back the entire system up, format it, install the new drivers, obvoisly have the hassle of removing the old board, then putting a new board in, then the RAM won't fit so you need new RAM etc etc. So it is better value for my customer just to buy a new computer which I usually supply at cost but then make money on the labour.
This is my gripe with dealers, they charge £80 an hour (not arguing about that, that is another debate) but say the part has a 50% mark up and costs £500 they are already going to make a huge amount of profit just on the labour. Yes I know garages have high running costs, but so does a certain large computer chain yet if they sold a laptop at £500 they would be extremely lucky to make £15-£20 on it.
Now the dealers are going bust as people are keeping their working cars, but also going to cheaper local garages. I think many of us with more than 3 year old cars have tried the dealers once or twice and been insulated by the prices.
I do take your point that an ECU does have to work under a lot of stress, I was really only thinking about it from a simplistic software and procesing point of view, neglecting the fact it has to work under a lot of stress. PS 386 CPUs have been used for autopilots until very recently because a 20Mhz processor is all the system needs, and they were very reliable as they produced so little heat.
Kevin I am not trying to disagree with you, I am just telling you how I see it from a consumers point of view. e.g somebody not connected with the car industry.
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Dealers are getting more real.
Our local Nissan franchise offers a very good price (compared with independents) for a service on vehicles which are out of Warranty.
(There's also the peace of mind of ECU being updated etc.)
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"Yorkie, I wish I had your contacts, coz I AM speaking as I have found, and I have been in the trade many years, and worked at different franchises from the bottom to the top end of the markets, and honestly I have NEVER seen the margins you claim..."
Erm, my contacts and info come from working in a few dealers, having a good relationship with a few dealer principals, a very good drinking/working arrangement with service managers and parts managers (manager of how many staff ?) and owner of a factors, and by running my own business.
I may not be very eloquent, but I know what goes on. Tell me you cant get 45% off oil from some dealers? 25% off service parts? Same (identical) parts even cheaper elsewhere!
A lot of the cloud is probably how the accountants show it, but my opinion is based on facts, not impressions and hearsay.
In fact, having shown this thread to a parts manager, he comments. Maybe because the parts are transferred to the service department at nett price so they can show the profit in the workshop! Says a lot for the accounting, but the profit is in the parts which ever way you want to look at it.
Not bothered what people believe; but the hypocrisy of the dealers teling you that there is no money made (to run the glass palces) but then giving big discounts at the same time.
I make profits too; I have to to survive. But I dont deny the profits.
And as for the comments about the dealers making 1% profit. What a laugh; the moneyinvested would make more in a bank even at current interest rates. Dont believe that anybody operates at those margins and survives for any longer than weeks !
Convince the ordinary motorist on here that the parts arent over priced (often, not always) by all means. But dont try and convince those in the know!
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I'm with Yorkie on this one. It's just a case of accounting for different areas of the dealership. The silly profiting is still from the parts. If I'd taken my car to be fixed at the dealership then the service people would have realised the profit on the sensor to be fitted rather than the parts people.
Even if the invoice showed a reduction of ten or fifteen percent for the part they would still be laughing especially with the 15 mins labour or whatever minimum they charge these days at £80 an hour.The majority of the profit would have been on the parts fitted rather than the work undertaken.
I suppose the balance changes if you are doing a Mondeo clutch change and the parts profit component goes down as a percentage compared to the labour component which goes up.
Dealers just replace parts these days, there are few old fashioned repairs or fixes. The profit in my opinion comes from parts whether accounted for at the service bay or parts counter makes no difference. The customer is handing over his hard earned for the parts.
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I wonder how much it would cost to build a car entirely from parts from the parts department and assembled by the dealer at their usual hourly rates? One million? Two million? How long would it take? "Sorry sir, that part is on back order from Germany and they don't know when they'll be getting them in"
I really must get out more..... ;-)
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In fact having shown this thread to a parts manager he comments. Maybe because the parts are transferred to the service department at nett price so they can show the profit in the workshop! Says a lot for the accounting but the profit is in the parts which ever way you want to look at it.
transferring at nett to the workshop, is very rarely done in my experience, I have never in fact worked anywhere that has done that, with the exception of oils, and yes there can be a big markup on that.
Most dealers, (and every one Ive ever worked for) keep the accounting of parts, labour, and cars sales separate, that includes expenditure as well as profit.
Not bothered what people believe; but the hypocrisy of the dealers teling you that there is no money made (to run the glass palces) but then giving big discounts at the same time. I make profits too; I have to to survive. But I dont deny the profits.
There IS very little profit at dealers right now, in fact the one I work at IS making a loss this year, and a very large one at that, yes they have made profit in years gone by, but today is a very different, and difficult time.... just open your eyes and see how many dealers, and groups are going down the pan right now... big profit today? BULL POOH!
And as for the comments about the dealers making 1% profit. What a laugh; the moneyinvested would make more in a bank even at current interest rates. Dont believe that anybody operates at those margins and survives for any longer than weeks !
your right... and as I just stated MANY ARENT!Convince the ordinary motorist on here that the parts arent over priced (often not always) by all means. But dont try and convince those in the know!
I have already stated dealers dont make the prices, and the margins Ive worked with, are nowhere near where you claim, Id stake my kids lives on what Ive said -I really dont know where you have got your info from -but as I have said, just look how many dealers are going under, that DOES NOT happen with high profit businesses
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But the poor old parts depts cant make the money to cover all the excess costs of the other depts! If servicing breaks even it takes the load off the parts. Servicing down = more costs to cover!
Simple accounting really. Its lack of turnover, combined with too much expense!
And yes there are some profitable dealers about still, less than there were I agree.
Lots are cutting back on mechanics and salesmen too. Any decreasing their parts sections? Absoloutely none that I know of ! Do you? I seriously doubt it! What does that tell you and other people?
Regardless of what you say. An item that sells retail £65, trade £45 and Im told they still make about 25% Gross, so costs about £33, isnt decent profit? Tell that to a factor ! And a part at 55% off? Selling at a loss are they? For a captive part?
Too much of your "info" is not right, eg dealers not allowed to buy and supply non genuine parts, for me to believe that you are in a position of sufficient knowledge to tell me how wrong I am (not) ! Likewise those telling me that they operate on a 1% profit margin.
Get real !
Fed up with this 1 now !
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Are people mixing up income vs profit. I can imagine the parts department does not bring in so much income but good profit. And we all know dealers get a good part of their income from sales bonuses and not selling the actual cars.
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And as for the comments about the dealers making 1% profit. What a laugh; the moneyinvested would make more in a bank even at current interest rates. Dont believe that anybody operates at those margins and survives for any longer than weeks !
your right... and as I just stated MANY ARENT!
I had to come back at this.
But the poster of the comment was stating how he had been analysing profitability for 4 years or so.
No way would any dealer have lasted 4 years at those margins, and Swiss tony comment agrees !
Way too much wrong info on here !
But thats the motor trade and cars in general for you. Everybody knows better about the car and the trade, than those working for a living in it!
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But the poster of the comment was stating how he had been analysing profitability for 4 years or so. No way would any dealer have lasted 4 years at those margins and Swiss tony comment agrees ! Way too much wrong info on here !
I don't disagree with your comment about there being too much wrong information in thi sthread but we would probably disagree about who it was quoting incorrect information.
www.trevorjones.uk.com/publications/drivingforce18...f
The above link takes you to a motor trade journal. The interesting part is the statistical analysis across a large percentage of dealerships in the UK for the last few years.
National average net profit 2005 0.6%
National average net profit 2006 0.7%
National average net profit 2007 0.6%
National average net profit 2008 0.4%
The comparison on service and parts gross profit is self explanatory as well...
But thats the motor trade and cars in general for you. Everybody knows better about the car and the trade than those working for a living in it!
Quite!
Edited by rjr on 22/12/2008 at 07:31
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If analysts and accountants and specialists are advising businesses how to continue to achieve those (less than 1%) profits (net, not gross as I was quoting btw) then they are very poor.
Best advice to anybody operating at those margins is to get out while they can. The money invested would have made more in a bank, and still would. Who would advise that those margins are worth pursuing? Nobody, full stop !
It seems to be prevalent since 2005 according to your sources!
How on earth have they survived until 2008 let alone through 2008.
Something doesnt add up does it?
Statistics, Lies and Damn lies springs to mind.
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If analysts and accountants and specialists are advising businesses how to continue to achieve those (less than 1%) profits (net not gross as I was quoting btw) then they are very poor. Best advice to anybody operating at those margins is to get out while they can. The money invested would have made more in a bank and still would. Who would advise that those margins are worth pursuing? Nobody full stop !
>>
Perhaps they understand the difference between profit (being return on sales) and return on investment (being equivalent to receiving interest on a bank balance).
Statistics Lies and Damn lies springs to mind.
I see, everything that is too complicated for you is a lie.
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Lots are cutting back on mechanics and salesmen too. Any decreasing their parts sections? Absoloutely none that I know of ! Do you? I seriously doubt it! What does that tell you and other people?
Yes I do know parts departments cutting down on staff.... 1st hand! the dealer I work for, for a start!
I dont know if Ill have a job next year, so dont keep telling me Im talking carp.. IM NOT!
Regardless of what you say. An item that sells retail £65 trade £45 and Im told they still make about 25% Gross so costs about £33 isnt decent profit? Tell that to a factor ! And a part at 55% off? Selling at a loss are they? For a captive part?
As Ive said before, captive parts do not come into a dealer at that kind of percentage!
Normal trade, as I have said before is around 15% off retail, so your £65 part would be £55.25 trade, and probably £45 cost!
Too much of your "info" is not right eg dealers not allowed to buy and supply non genuine parts for me to believe that you are in a position of sufficient knowledge to tell me how wrong I am (not) !
You ARE wrong! it is in dealer agreements not to use non genuine parts, if you get caught you are at risk of loosing the franchise - not worth the risk! Get real !
I am being real! Fed up with this 1 now !
Not as much as I am!
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Despite disagreements, genuinely sorry to hear that your job is in jeopardy.
Absoloutley the 1st dealer parts dept cutback I have heard of (other than totally failing and closing down all together.)
We are not going to agree on other areas I know. I have my invoices, you see yours.
But good luck on the job front, and dont dismiss the factors if looking for work. Times are hard but not totally dismal.
Good luck, lets leave this 1 where it is. Other people can make their own minds up.
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Cheers for that Yorkie... I am looking as we speak for other positions, and yes... factors as well!
And yeah... lets agree to disagree.....
Edited by the swiss tony on 21/12/2008 at 23:23
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" it is in dealer agreements not to use non genuine parts, if you get caught you are at risk of loosing the franchise - not worth the risk!"
Not many people would expect an owner to to do interim oil and filter changes during warranty. Much less to carefully examine the oil filter (paper type) element and clean it up to see the brand.
Six months after the 1st year (main dealer) service I was startled to see an obscure name element - cheap seeming - straight pleat element fitted. Not a `concertina` more substantial, thicker pleated, Purflux type as was originally fitted.
(I`ve been buying filters from the same dealerships parts ever since and all have been the `concertina` pleated type the car had while new.)
Now you can make of that what you will - but when I called at the local factors hoping to source the concertina pleated type - I was presented with the less substantial - thinner and flimsy looking element type that seemingly had been fitted after the first service.
I never let anyone touch it after that - even during the warranty period.
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I have to say that I find all this talk about overpriced ECUs amusing.
The more apt comparison is with something like a ruggedised network component, and you'll find that these also cost many hundreds, if not thousands of pounds and often have nothing more powerful than a 1.5GHz main processor and 256MB of main memory.
But that is missing the point. The custom ASICs on those things are staggeringly expensive to produce on a relatively short run, and the R&D that goes into the software needs to be clawed back.
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To add a little to jase1's post, when ESA are considering the costs of a satellite, each electronics box (typically containing 4 or 5 PCBs, and perhaps half a dozen ASICs or FPGAs), they budget on paying about 5 million Euros for it.
Car ECUs are seriously cheap, and remarkably reliable.
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The more apt comparison is with something like a ruggedised network component and you'll find that these also cost many hundreds if not thousands of pounds {{snip}} The custom ASICs on those things are staggeringly expensive to produce on a relatively short run and the R&D that goes into the software needs to be clawed back.
Jase1, consider an ECU fitted to a £10,000 supermini. The unit production cost of that car as it leaves the factory gates is probably only half that price, and I don't believe for a moment that manufacturers are going to allow a small box of chips to gobble up 10% or more the the total cost of producing the vehicle.
Sure, these are ruggedised units, but I'd be astonished if they are anything other than a standard box fitted to millions of cars, just with software settings customised for each application. I'd be very surprised if the unit cost was as much as £100, and the huge prices charged for replacement units have more to do with the captive markets involved than with cost-to-supply.
When a new ECU is needed, only the vehicle manufacturer can supply it, so they can charge what they like ... and it seems that is exactly what they do.
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>I don't believe for a moment that manufacturers are going to allow a small box of chips to
>gobble up 10% or more the the total cost of producing the vehicle.
A "small box of chips"? A new ASIC can cost millions to design and hundreds of dollars per unit to produce. Your "small box of chips" soon adds up when you consider the total amount of silicon in a modern vehicle.
Engine (and emmissions) management - silicon.
Transmission control - silicon.
ABS and traction control - silicon.
Airbags - silicon.
Security - silicon.
>but I'd be astonished if they are anything other than a standard box fitted to millions of
>cars, just with software settings customised for each application.
Then astonished you should be.
There is no such thing as a generic ECU that will fit millions of cars.
>I'd be very surprised if the unit cost was as much as £100,
Which simply indicates that you don't have a clue about engineering and manufacturing. The casing and connector probably costs £50 before you start filling it with "chips".
Kevin...
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