Not only cars, try and buy a phone that doesnt have a camera, MP3 player, web browser, e-mail client etc etc etc.
|
i should mention that the best things about modern cars are that they do actually start because of their injection systems
it was minus some silly figure outside my house this morning but my transit started albeit slowly,now in the bad old days the diesel fuel would have been frozen and i would have had to throw copious amounts of easy start up its nose to get it started
if it was an old petrol the rubber diaphram would have split or it woyuld have overfuelled and i would have to take the spark plugs out and stick them under the grill on the cooker for 5 minutes
happy days?
no
technology .luvly
my phone does nowt but send and receive calls it cost £29 four years ago and still working,although im going to upgrade in the new year
|
|
|
Not only cars try and buy a phone that doesnt have a camera MP3 player web browser e-mail client etc etc etc.
So then don't use those functions, hardly rocket science is it? Amazingly my N95 has the ability to make calls in exactly the same way as my first ever mobile - dial a number and hit the green button.
|
Can't you luddites all go and buy 405 diesels and old Nokia 5110's and leave those of us for whom new things isn't far too challenging to comprehend to enjoy the technological advancements of the last 10 years?
I mean come on, iDrive is hardly rocket science.
|
Its not rocket science, but it answers a question that wasnt asked and over complicates the car.
I am well capable of handling new technology, but it doesnt mean that I appreciate so called advances that actually dont advance anything.
The 5-series BMW I clean with idrive still has a dashboard full of buttons, so it certainly hasnt simplified anything.
Cruise control, yes I get that and the safety features, in the main, I get them too, but why all the rest? Why not give us the choice of not having all the junk?
|
|
The usual procedure when confronted with over-complicated technology is to find a 13-year old child, as I do to set the video. They ought to lower the driving age accordingly.
|
|
|
Renault are going to build a RHD-version of their (Dacia) Logan in India. It's a really simple model that a home mechanic should be capable of maintaining.
I'm sure it would be a big seller over here, particularly with people over 40 who used to do all their own servicing.
|
|
|
" Can't you luddites all go and buy 405 diesels and old Nokia 5110's and leave those of us for whom new things isn't far too challenging to comprehend to enjoy the technological advancements of the last 10 years?"
Ahhh, there speaks the voice of youth. Yes Michael, perhaps it is my age. Perhaps if I were your age, I would feel as you do.
" why all the rest? Why not give us the choice of not
having all the junk?"
Ahhh, there speaks the voice of wisdom and common sense.
|
SNIPQUOTE!!Ahhh there speaks the voice of wisdom and common sense.
Funny thing is, im only 27, so im hardly old, just I grew up in the 80's when cars were fairly reliable but not over complex compared with todays machines.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 12/11/2007 at 13:51
|
They don't make cars like they used to ~ thank goodness!
I'm all for innovation and having the latest technology. The only thing in my car which doesn't get used to it's full potential is the wireless. (!) And it's not because of my lack of comprehension ~ it's just that it's got more than I need. Incidentally, the other day I invented a new use for the "shuffle" mode of my car's CD player ~ I used it to help me choose my lottery numbers!
--
L\'escargot.
|
"..which doesn't get used to it's full potential is the wireless. (!)"
sq
wireless...would that be the 8 or 16 valve set?
Edited by Pugugly {P} on 12/11/2007 at 18:25
|
wireless...would that be the 8 or 16 valve set?
Just a joke ~ but barely just apparently!
--
L\'escargot.
|
|
I think cars are gradually turning into computer networks, with an engine and wheels attached. The problem we have is that the priorities of the new car buyer, who will probably sell by the time the warranty expires, are different to those of the used car buyer who is on a lower budget and will have to shell out hard cash for any repairs.
Some advances are to be welcomed (e.g. ABS) but other feautres are of more doubtful benefit (auto headlights, wipers, electronic handbrake - whoever asked for them?).
Many of the menu-driven interfaces are ergonomically poor and although I can find my way around them they are not suited to use in car - when driving at speed you want to operate equipment more or less by 'feel' rather than by having to read a menu item and making several button pushes/twiddles.
|
May I interpret a little here?
I think what Aprilia is saying is that some things like ABS are obviously good (I must say I agree with bb too: today's injected, electronic cars start more easily and keep their tune much better than they used to) but many others are redundant and indeed a nuisance, especially when cars are out of warranty.
Everyone has their likes and dislikes. I don't mind electric windows myself although they add weight. But I don't often feel I need air conditioning although a majority of people here regard it as essential. My impression is also that air bags achieve very little that properly fastened seat belts don't, as well as having the potential to cause injury themselves. Come to that I don't much like ABS personally. Always (or nearly always!) managed OK without it.
|
Maybe the question needs to be: "Have cars become far too complicated to be fixable?"
With ref to NC's answer to a Vectra-C problem on the tech forum; "From talking to an ex-colleague at the Vauxhall garage where I used to work, these CAN systems are beyond the skills of over 90% of Vauxhall mechanics, and most of these faults from a wide area are now brought to him to sort out, because there's no-one in the other (larger!) garages who has a clue."
That tallies exactly with what I'm repeatedly finding on diagnostic visits to dealerships - that most electronic systems are now far beyond the abilities of those tasked with fixing them. The few diag-techs that used to understand them have got fed up with earning less that the filter-spinning kids on bonus and have left the trade for easier pickings.
This leaves many main dealers with nobody in the workshop who will touch a diagnostic job. Instead, they just make a wild guess; "do something" - effective or not - and charge the customer hoping that they won't come back. A more financially-efficient strategy, at least in the short term, than spending the many hours needed to trace a fault - most of which the customer doesn't see as necessary and won't pay for.
|
|
I think the real answer is no, they arent too complicated BUT there is no real alternative for those who do want a less complicated car, thus it creates the situation where what is available isnt what many people want, but have little choice but to buy into technology they dont want.
|
The manufacturers need to make some profit. A highly reliable car means less money for them.
So, they now design the car in such a way that you need to shell out more money to fix or service it.
Consumers also have a choice. You don't need to buy a car with lots of gadgets. There are still many cars with bare minimum components and still does a decent motoring.
|
Short answer for me is YES.
Liked the new Mondeo but had reservations over
- the steering mounted controls for functions that you could and hit a button for. Yes they are "shortcuts" to other vehicle controls but when driving you do not want to be scrolling through menus! Before long it will be illegal to drive modern cars as it is to use a mobile phone.
- size - it is big
Went for the old/current Mazda6 and love it. Change temperature for heating is as easy as rotating a knob and steering button for cruise/stereo better than on the old Mundano.
When I had the car kit refitted, the installer chatted a bit. We did a light check on the car before install (and he took the carkit out of the last car and did the same) and he commented on a recent car whereby the Fog/Reverse on a Golf MkV were the wrong way around! The wrong light units fitted and the owner did not know. I guess it's down to CANBUS wiring?
|
I guess it's down to CANBUS wiring?
Exactly; they can't leave anything alone without adding an ECU function to it. The unnecessary complication of simple rear light wiring is reaching astounding levels.
For example; in a rear light unit, you have two red lenses and two bulbholders - one for a single filament and the other an offset [stop/tail] twin-contact type. You require it to function as two tail-lights and a stoplight.
So that's a 5 watt bulb in the single and a 5/21w one in the twin. The classic solution - been used for years.
Not any more... The incredible solution that BMW came up with?
Even though it's wired, ignore the 21w side of the stop-tail completely; use only it's 5w filament as a tail-light - then use the body-module to pulse-feed a single-filament 21w bulb in the other holder so that it only glows [at 5w] as a tail-light, brightening to full brilliance for the stop!
KISS clearly hasn't reached Germany yet!
|
Aprilia.
A very concise summing up. Spot on as usual.
>>Some advances are to be welcomed ... but other feautres are of more doubtful benefit ..... electronic handbrake - whoever asked for them?).
One surprising benefit. I was watching a police prog the other night that covered car theft.
The scroats had stolen the keys to a Merc but could not move it cos they were unable to sus the electronic handbrake.
>>when driving at speed you want to operate equipment more or less by 'feel'
Reminds me of the Rover 2000 innovative controls with all the switches operated by different shaped knobs. Too many controls for that aproach today :-(
I have just had my old Mondeo serviced by a main dealer ( who I think does a good job).
I know there is a very minor fault which they did not find /fix. I had to smile cos it was the bulb for "service required" :-)) I can live without it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
>> Not only cars try and buy a phone that doesnt have a camera MP3 player >> web browser e-mail client etc etc etc. So then don't use those functions hardly rocket science is it?
What if the unnecessary functions interfere with the essential, basic ones?
The phone I have (borrowed) at the moment, a Sony Ericcson, has a camera, colour screen, WAP and all that jazz. Sending a text is a nightmare. Because it's loaded with unnecessary junk, it is so slow to use. When you type letters there's a delay before they show up on screen. When you press buttons there is a delay. Sometimes, you can press the button to choose a recipient, and after a couple of seconds you press it again because nothing's happened. Then all of a sudden it springs in to life, both presses register and it sends your text to the first person in the contacts list.
I must say it is absolutely awful in every way. I've had it two weeks and I hate the damn thing. The menu system is bad, probably due to the difficulty in designing a concise menu system for all the functions the phone has. All I want to do is make calls and send texts and this phone is just inadequate even for that...
And because of the colour screen and all the functions, the battery life's a bit rubbish. Progress? I think not.
|
>>air bags achieve very little that properly fastened seat belts don't, as well as having the potential to cause injury themselves. Come to that I don't much like ABS personally
I used to think that, until I saw the results of a belted driver head-butting his steering wheel. I also believe the efficacy of side and curtain air-bags is without question in a side impact.
I doubt if I would have missed that lorry coming around the bend on the wrong side without ABS, once I got my nearside wheels onto the gravel I don't think I could have reacted fast enough to still steer out of his way.
I'm still happier putting a key in a keyhole, and manual windows give me the only little bit of exercise I get ;>)
|
my first response is YES - they are too complicated.
But that answer is flawed.
We've only had these advances in vehicles by developing them - initially in premium markets and then in mass markets. Along the way the manufacturers have also developed some very reliable mechanical units - all those sweet revving multivalve petrol units and 5(+) speed gearboxes were not available in the mass market not so long back.
Modern cars are very easy to drive for a large percentage of the population - and can be adapted for those who need it. Try adapting a car without power steering/brakes etc.
I've always rejected cars that are over complicated - but recently bought a primera se+.
I thought my wife would spend every journey attempting to override the climate control - but it's just the opposite, she's left it well alone - the first car ever !
She's also happy to drive the car - and she hates complex cars much more than I do.
Yes, the radio is complex, but it does what I want it to - I've no idea what some of its features really do.
So well done Nissan. It still works after several years and owners. Anyone can use it without being overwhelmed and it looks just ... well, perhaps that's not the point !
|
So well done Nissan. It still works after several years and owners. Anyone can use it without being overwhelmed and it looks just ... well perhaps that's not the point !
I think you are referring to Nissan N-Form, which is actually one of the better menu driven systems out there. When I go to Germany I frequently get a BMW rental car with iDrive - I CAN use the system, but its not user friendly. Its even more awkward to use in UK RHD cars if you are right-handed!
I also find GM's system a bit awkward and over complex, just changing the set temperature is awkward, again especially if you're right handed in a RHD car.
|
|
|
|
The phone I have (borrowed) at the moment a Sony Ericcson has a camera colour screen WAP and all that jazz. Sending a text is a nightmare.
Sounds like you need something from here:-
www.retrobrick.com/
Or something basic like a Nokia 1600 for 18 quid on PAYG.
|
I don't know what phone I normally use (lost charger for it, hence borrowed friend's spare) but it cost me £10 two years ago and it's fair to say it is simple enough.
I am not against new technology but I am against badly designed, overcomplicated products which it seems many (most?) new products are. Most mobiles tend to be jacks of all trades rather than mastering the basics.
|
I spent 10 years as the engineering line manager of a flight of fairly simple piston engined helicopters. I often had to send my mechanics out to attend to pilot ?finger trouble?. Eg. Starter doesn?t. Technician walks out to the aircraft, applies digit to starter circuit breaker on the console and says resignedly ?Try it now.?
Now this was in the days when people left school having done English and Maths properly, even doing counting, advanced guzinter and spelling. The ?drivers airframe? were a carefully selected bunch.
Having seen the myriad of buttons on Chinook and Apache helicopters and relating them to cars and the drivers who can?t find indicator or dipswitches I can only wonder at the modern aircraft?s ability to fly itself, albeit mostly with two pilots these days. Perhaps the more complicated cars need two drivers, one to RTFM whilst going along.
|
I'm quite a techy sort and like to have a good set of gadgets in a car.
Aprilia:>> I think cars are gradually turning into computer networks, with an engine and wheels attached.
Ah, an in-car LAN, that's an interesting idea.
Seriously though, I have nothing against complex things going on behind the scenes, providing they work properly and are intuitive to use.
I have climate control on both cars and it's great. They both have quite effective systems so I never have to touch the settings. Perhaps a degree down if I have a coat on, or the windscreen button to quickly demist, but otherwise I just leave it on Auto and save continually fiddling with the air mix, temperature, fan speed etc.
I know people who don't seem to be able to work the basic manual controls, e.g. leaving the temp on full heat and windscreen but then turning the fan off when it gets too warm (then it gets stuffy in there without actually cutting the heat).
My Skoda has a multifunction display. Less simple than a basic set of warning lights, but you really can't argue with messages such as 'refuel now', 'service in 800 miles', 'low washer fluid', 'boot open', etc for the average person compared to deciphering some glowing symbol.
The best layout for anything in a car (or mobile phone, TV, etc) for people in general is something so intuitive it doesn't need the manual for day to day use.
|
>>but you really can't argue with messages such as ... 'low washer fluid'
Oh yes I can. The logic to me is I want the equivalent of an electric dip stick so I know how much fluid is left rather than a warning saying you should have checked it at the last M25 service centre. Not a lot of use stating the B obvious that you are out of washer fluid and stuck in truck spray and road surface gunge.
On the otherhand, a Renault Scenic I hired DID have an electric dip stick for oil.
The problem was, as I eventually sussed, if you parked on a slope with a half full oil level, on switching on, a service light and warning light came on and stayed on until the I stopped on the level and restarted the engine.
I want a MORE complicated warning for loss of oil pressure. i.e. a high pressure switch with a warning light when the pressure starts to drop not , as is the norm - oh you only have 5 PSI left.
I still think the Citroen SM idea of a BIG red display that lights up STOP when anything critical occurs. Simple and unambiguous.
So give us complications provided they are thought out.
|
I want a MORE complicated warning for loss of oil pressure. i.e. a high pressure switch with a warning light when the pressure starts to drop not as is the norm - oh you only have 5 PSI left.
Sounds like what you want is an oil pressure gauge :-)
Shame there's not many cars these days that come with such a thing. Some don't even have a coolant temperature gauge!
|
If something goes wrong with the lubrication system on a car then the pressure drop is quite rapid. A higher setting of the warning light pressure switch would only give a slightly longer reaction time in the event of catastrophic failure. It would probably have to be set so high that nuisance triggering would be caused at idle speed with a hot engine.
A pressure gauge is better, but how often and for how long would you have to observe it? The fall of the needle would be quite quick.
A gauge will tell if the level is low by "dipping" during cornering, depending upon the car/layout, obviously. (My Lotus Elan 1965 was good at this!)
The first Citroen BX I had (and all the Cits since) light up a big red STOP light when the oil pressure falls. This did save the engine on one occaision when my wife was driving it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
