Hi all, I've recently bought privately a 2003 Golf Tdi 150. It has only covered 48k miles but seems a bit flat in the lower rev ranges and blows a little bit of white smoke. The car was laid up for a couple of months before I bought it as the owner was away in the services and I wondered if this has anything to do with it. Someone said it was probably the air mass meter. Does anyone else have any ideas before I go out and buy a new one maybe for no reason? Thanks in advance.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 23/10/2007 at 01:48
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richie
It might be worth having the cam checked for wear; the ARL has - big - problems in that area.
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thanks screwloose, the car has only done 48k and please forgive my technical ignorance in this area but what is the ARL?
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richie
The ARL is the engine code of the Golf's 150PS TDi; they eat injector lobes on the camshafts due to a lubrication issue.
Many won't see 50K unless they've used the silly-money Longlife oil [not the recommended PD oil] and it's been changed every 8-10,000.
No-one knew this when the car was new, so it won't have been used.
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So you don't think it could be the air mass meter then? If I take it to the main dealer they will charge silly money just to check it out. Also a couple of weeks ago I got some diesel treatment from a mate who works as a technician for the local volvo main dealer and put it all in with about 40 litres of fuel. Maybe once that is cleared through the fuel system the smoke will reduce but it still doesn't explain the sluggishness in low revs.
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richie
I've never seen a faulty MAF cause white smoke - the counterfeit ones off e-bay cause black smoke under load from over-fuelling, but white smoke is very different.
Have you had to top up the water?
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No never, the coolant is fine & so is the oil. The white smoke is most noticeable when you first start up in the morning and when you give it a good boot. My mate put it on the diagnostic computer last friday but the only code it came up with said it wasn't firing on number 3 but he said that was probably an old code as the engine sounded fine and was obviously not missfiring. If it is the injector lobes what sort of money am i looking at to put it right?
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richie
Ahh; that's different. If you have a mate with a diagnostic interface, then there's loads of tests he can do to nail this down.
If there was a code for cyl 3 misfire; why didn't he access the freeze-frame data and examine the data at the time the code was set? The self-diagnosis software can detect a misfire that nobody can hear. [Your "sluggishness?"]
What were the injection variances in the smooth-running blocks? Was #3's quantity aberrant? Has the injector loom ever been changed?
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To be honest Screwloose I don't think the unit he has possesses those sort of capabilities. It looked like a small hand held unit as opposed to a laptop or full diagnostic machine. I'm taking it to another place on Thursday morning which I think has better facilities so hopefully they can pinpoint it but will keep you informed. The one place I'm reluctant to take it is the main dealer as they're rip off merchants and I've heard people say that they've taken a car there in the past, been charged over 300 quid and still not sorted out the problem. Been thinking maybe I should have gone for the 130 now but went for the 150 because of the nice wood pack trim and mine also has the full leather recaro interior. Lovely car but need to get it running spot on to get the best out of it really.
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richie
There's plenty of people that have given a dealers £3,000 and it's no better.....
If there's nothing conclusive in the datastream - and these have massive amounts, there's at least an hours-worth of data to examine - then pop the cam cover off and check the lobes that operate the injectors for wear; if they are 100% then fit a new injector loom while you're in there.
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Thanks for that mate. I need to refer to the Haynes manual for my car in order to carry out tasks like that as I'm no motor mechanic. I'll see what this chap says on Thursday and go from there. Thanks for all you help anyway!
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Can I just suggest that the examination looks also at the lobes operating the valves. The hydraulic valve "tappets" or followers are bucket shaped, and do not have the benefit of the roller bearing on the injector assembly. See uk-mkivs.net/forums/3/841326/ShowThread.aspx Experience is that it is usually the valve-operating cams/followers that are worn as can be seen from the photos in the link.
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The ARL is the engine code of the Golf's 150PS TDi; they eat injector lobes on the camshafts due to a lubrication issue. Many won't see 50K unless they've used the silly-money Longlife oil [not the recommended PD oil] and it's been changed every 8-10 000. No-one knew this when the car was new so it won't have been used.
Are you saying that a TDI 150 changed every 10K on standard 505.01 oil (PD but not variable servicing) will be in worse shape than one changed every 14K or so with £60 a go Castrol SLX PD Longlife oil...? the 506.01 stuff. I am looking to buy one and cannot deicide whether an engine on the fixed or variable regime will be in better shape as there seem to be a number of well documented engine faliures anywhere between 60 and 85 K miles, which really is not much for a diesel. I guess it depends which oil provides best sheer resitatnce but I'm no expert any advice welcome!
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MrJA
VAG have quietly dropped Longlife servicing; if you want it, you now have to ask for it - it's whispered that all the cars now come factory-set to 10,000 mile fixed schedules.
A very confidential service bulletin [that I haven't got my hands on - yet] recommends the dealers to change existing car's software so that they flag a service about every 10K.
If you must buy an ARL, then be prepared for a £2,200 bill in short order as the damage will have already been done.
Then, with the modified head assembly fitted; change every 8-10K with Quantum Longlife [not that Castrol ****] and you should have a reasonable chance.
Edited by Screwloose on 25/10/2007 at 18:15
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Hi Screwloose
Firstly an update on mine. It's apparently black smoke mine's chucking out but not really that much so it's obviously overfueling. I'm booked in tomorrow morning at an old friend of my dad's who's a VW & Audi specialist and will plug it into his full diagnostic computer to try and find the root of the problem.
What do you mean by be prepared for a £2,200 bill in short order? Mine has only done 48k so is there any way I can avoid this? I know other people with ARL's and theirs has done double the mileage of mine without any problems.
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Just read the above thread. Took quite a while to read it all but very interesting. Mine's not noisy yet and has just had a service but may do another immediately using a decent engine flush and the certified VW505.01 oil.
May also consider selling the car in the near future but would be a shame as it's a lovely 3 door in metalic black with full leather Recaro interior and the usual wood pack trim. Can't really afford 2 grand to repair it though so may have to bite the bullet.
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Latest update on my situation
I had it plugged into the diagnostic program yesterday but it wasn't giving any error codes at all. The technician took it for a drive and said there was a definate flat spot and the MAF sensor needed replacing. I replaced that and it was more responsive but, it's still overfuelling and still a bit lumpy. Just before I bought the car the previous owner had a service done which included a timing belt change but he had it done privately and I'm wondering if it has been done properly or maybe it's slightly out.
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richie
Has anyone actually checked for camwear yet?
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Not yet but the mechanic - who's a VW specialist and been working with them for over 30 years - doesn't seem to think it's an issue. You're thinking maybe it's an injector lobe?
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I've seen - and heard of - both injector and cam lobes wiped out on these.
As it's only five minutes to have a look: then, as nothing else is apparent, it would seem a wise check.
It's unlikely that a MAF fault would cause a miss on one cylinder unless it was really bad.
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The odd hings is though the VAG computer didn't pick up a miss. The only thing it showed was that the air mass was a bit low which was causing the flat spot. Would a lobe gone cause it to overfuel? How much are we talking to get it sorted if it's that?
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richie
There was a misfire code stored for cyl #3? The MAF wouldn't cause that; but a - suspected - cam lobe fault would - and the overfuelling.
Let's leave costings until there's at least something solid to base the estimations on.
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Yeah you're right Screwloose there was one picked up by a hand held interface but like the guy at the time said it may have been an old code. When it was plugged into a computer with the VAG diagnostic program on Friday it didn't pick it up at all. Very odd and very confusing!
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Screwloose will correct me, if needed, but the Vagcom or other computer diagnostics are limited in scope and unable to tell directly whether hardware items like valves are being lifted fully etc. Before the Vagcom is deployed its sometimes necessary to see what has fallen orf!
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Yes; you're quite right. Vag-Com is an astonishingly comprehensive scan-tool; but, in this case, there is no inlet valve position sensor data for it to read.
Sometimes mechanical faults - if that's what's happening here - can be inferred by analysing the extensive data; but for confirming a putative diagnosis, nothing beats the Mk1 eyeball.
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Iirc, when Dieselcar tested the TDi 150 (pre change of ownership, when it was an informative magazine ), they decided they prefered the TDi130 as the 150 suffered from much more pronounced turbo lag due to the larger turbo (same as the Cosworth Sierra 500 limited run years before). Could this be the 'flat spot' you are experiencing, or is it a definate problem? Just a thought...
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Thanks for your thought John. The turbo lag wouldn't have accounted for the overfueling that it was doing and the whole problem turned out to be as I expected which was that the timing belt had been replaced before I bought the car but done privately and not done properly. Unfortunately the tensioners weren't replaced either and on sat evening the belt jumped and wrecked the head. Now my car is off the road for 2 weeks while the VW garage that I use are waiting for another head to be delivered and I'm facing a repair bill of about 1,500 quid. The ironic thing is, I had it booked in down there on mon this week to get the timing belt checked but it didn't last that long. Savage eh!
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"...the main dealer as they're rip off merchants"
The wife recently had the cambelt and tensioners changed on her PD130 at the local main dealer. It cost £350.
The previous owner that had a "private" service on your car including cambelt change might have paid £200, without tensioners. Now, you're facing a £2k bill.
Are main dealers really that much of a rip off? What price peace of mind?
dv.
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Sorry to hear of your misfortune, most unlucky, though I wouldn't have thought 48k was enough to ruin a tensioner (when I had the Passat 110TDi (my ex-company car) cambelt changed at 120k, the Service manager said 'You'll need the tensioner changing as well - the leasing company refused to let us change it at 60k...').
What is the cambelt change interval on the 170 - I think for the 130 it was changed from the original 40k to 60k?
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