Is it REALLY possible to chip a car in a way that isn't detectable to either the people servicing it or the insurance company?
I know we have a forum of dads here, but I don't want the 'don't do it, it's naughty, and it's not even your car' lecture.... just interested to know if it's truly possible as I am truly bored of my Golf to the extent where I'm seriously thinking about paying the £1500 to get out of the lease and get something more fun.
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Maybe to a dealer or even an insurance company but not to the manufacturer.
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Cars can be 'chipped' either by doing a hardware modification (i.e. phsically changing components in the ECU, or inserting a 'piggyback' unit into the management system), or by altering the software (the 'map') which controls fuelling, ignition and turbo boost within the standard management system - sometimes by both.
In the case of a hardware modification it will be readily detectable by anyone with a bit of 'nous' - certainly a diligent service tech or insurance co. investigator.
Altering the software within existing hardware is obviously more difficult to spot. Bascially the software can be read and compared against the manufacturer's version. Most remapping companies will in any event put their 'signature' into the code (possibly as ASCII characters etc).
So basically, it is not difficult to detect 'chipping'. It is unlikely an insurance co. would bother checking in the case of a minor accident (bent wing etc) but I suspect that for something more major then they would investigate - especially if it is a car of a type that is regularly chipped.
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Get a GTi PoloGirl, you know you want one.
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The safest mod in this respect is one that plugs into the existing wiring/harness and as such can simply be unplugged and taken away should you need to.
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Even the "plug-in-unplug" type leave traces.With any mod. the maufacturer can carry out a test called a "checksum".He knows what the result should be-if it is different,then it is not his software.
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checksums can be faked quite easily
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But the Golf is just a dull car. That's the whole point. I'm sure it's competent. I'm sure the GTi is powerful and has comfortable seats and a nice stereo. But even the GTi is about as edgy as a suit worn by a BBC newsreader.
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"But even the GTi is about as edgy as a suit worn by a BBC newsreader"
Have you driven one ?
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"But even the GTi is about as edgy as a suit worn by a BBC newsreader" Have you driven one ?
Image is what I was talking about. They are designed to be respectable, "safe" and not to scare the horses. Edgy within acceptable tolerances at the tennis club is what they are and that's just fine. No I haven't driven one, but as it happens a near neighbour of mine bought one late last year for nostalgia reasons and he is disappointed compared with the original he had in the early 80s. I keep telling him to get one of those insane 10 gazillion BHP Renault Clios.
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Next BR meet I'll bring SWMBO's (If I can distract her) and you can have a blast. A friend who has a much loved MK2 Gti called the other night (I accept that this is softer than the MK1) was beguiled by the MK5. As he put it it is a very iron fist in a very velvet glove sort of car, he made it howl along the local by-pass! It is a very fast for a car based on a shopping trolley, but it's the way that the ultimate punch is delivered that makes it a little special, apart from a gruff exhaust bark, it delivers power in almost electrical smoothness. remember this is the bog standard 199bhp not the works chipped 225bhp. This is a very engaging car in every way and the acceleration in 5th gear is very very quick, allied to a superb handling package all the performance is usable on twisty A and B roads. If there is one fault it is almost too civilized to drive (as explained well by Baskerville) as a day to day car, this is the best FWD car I have driven, and probably the best petrol car at that.
Remember that PG wanted to chip her existing Golf, which suggests a general satisfaction with the car's dynamics, all I did was suggest that she could unwrap a brand new GTi and get the performance boost she quite clearly craves without tampering with it's software.
PS
The MKi Golf is as near perfect a car you could get in its day, that was 25 years ago and consumers demand more now.
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Very well put--you love this thing, don't you? I'd love to have a blast, though I'm not sure that's entirely wise. No, on second thoughts it's very, very unwise for all parties. My only "moving" experience of the MK1 Golf was an almost brand new one owned by a teacher of mine who was also a mate of my Dad's. This was a 40 year-old bloke, with a couple of kids, and of course he was a teacher and a pillar of the community, but that thing turned him into a complete hooligan. He even went so far as to debadge it. I remember getting a lift home from school with him and the old man one night. The Yorkshire lanes suddenly seemed very narrow. And very blurred. Comfortable it was not.
I was wondering though whether it was actually the Golf PG was bored with and her "only hope" within a leasing agreement to which she is presumably tied for a while was to modify it if she could. Maybe she'll tell us.
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".... bored with and her "only hope" within a leasing agreement to which she is presumably tied"
I thought that as well, to be fair.
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Oh dear, you're starting to make me hanker after the immaculate 1991 Mk2 GTi 16V that I sold a long time ago in a moment of madness.
I've just checked and the Mk5 GTi in Germany costs 25K Euros which seems reasonable value for money (ca. 17K Pounds - no pound key on this keyboard).
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Sadly,
After last weeks visit, I am looking at getting rid of my old BMW project (which featured briefly on here a couple of years ago) and looking for a MK1 Gti to play with, guess it would be difficult to get an unmolested one though unless I buy one new in South africa and drive it home !
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If you don't mind the steering wheel on the "wrong" side, you could pick one up in Germany where they're still relatively plentiful. Good ones are going for around 8000 Euros.
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Ooh dear, already got a left hooker Defender, Germany is more of a proposition really....oooh er....
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You are in big trouble now. Sorry about that.
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Sadly unless I buy one new in South africa and drive it home !
NOw that would be a holiday and experience
Need a navigator PU?
And a left hooker is propbably a better bet. At least they stopped. Something the R/H drive Mk1 GTis singularly failed to do.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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good post Aprilia, even a technophobe like me understood it........have wanted to do SWMBOs car, so that i don't continually drive it with diver's boots on.........but haven't had the bottle whilst it's still under warranty........and didn't undertsand what was what
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Pologirl, I am sorry that you are bored with your Golf, especially since I advised you to get one! What is the matter, is it too reliable?
Perhaps you should get an Alfa, I know it is a favorite of some of the mods or ex mods. You will never be bored again, but please make sure you are in the AA or RAC. I had an Alfa once, so I know.
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Also, if you want the Golf chipped why not ask the insurer for a quote, it might be less than you think.
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Also if you want the Golf chipped why not ask the insurer for a quote it might be less than you think.
PG needs to hide it from the leasing company, not the insurance company. The lease will state its verbotten under any circumstances under pain of death.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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I still have an Alfa (10 years old soon). All monies spent on AA or RAC etc have so far been a waste of money - the car has never let me down.
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Red Baron, you are luckier than I was. Whenever I went a long journey it would let me down.
Not to mention the Alfa dealers!!!!!!!
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Red Baron you are luckier than I was. Whenever I went a long journey it would let me down. Not to mention the Alfa dealers!!!!!!! Oh & of course your one sets the reliability index for all!
Better odd issues with an Alfa than driving boring grey German porridge for ever & they ain't that reliable to boot. Just found someone who has gone from Golf to a Toyota Avensis as the Golf was so unreliable!
I'd have bought another Alfa if they'd made up their mind as regards the 166, instead I bought the Jag.
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I think you will find that it is not only me who has had trouble with Alfas.
When I went to my local Alfa dealer to swap mine, I was told to sell it privately as they could not sell them and they would give me a discount. I declined their offer.
My boring silver German porridge is nearly 6 years old, the only problem has been a failed window motor. It is a fantastic car, it will do 130mph and going a bit slower will do 50mpg.
As for Jags, well you only have to read todays Telegraph motoring section to see how unreliable they are. Morse himself said so!!!
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All monies spent on AA or RAC etc have so far been a waste of money
It's a form of insurance, and as with any insurance policy you always hope you never have to claim. Well, I do anyway.
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L\'escargot.
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I know we have a forum of dads here but I don't want the 'don't do it it's naughty and it's not even your car' lecture....
Less of that young girl, who was it who said they have never done a handbrake turn? huh?
Perhaps you need to be taught how to drive your car in an entertaining manner ;)
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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I am truly bored of my Golf to the extentwhere I'm seriously thinking about paying the £1500 to get out of the lease and get something more fun.
Well, that didn't take long PG. And this is after yr passionate love affair with a Polo of all things!
Time for an Alfa Romeo, obviously. Or perhaps you might consider getting yourself chipped? :o)
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What about a lighter spring under the accelerator?
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What about a lighter spring under the accelerator?
I remember that when I worked for a car manufacturer tests proved that, for most people, a stronger return spring made the car appear to be more powerful.
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L\'escargot.
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"> Is it REALLY possible to chip a car in a way that isn't detectable to either the people servicing it or the insurance company? <"
No
Keep the Golf and buy one of these tinyurl.com/27w5wu (link to small car)
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Pologirls car is a company provided vehicle.... so basically a non starter? What if you had an accident etc. Or does PG pay own insurance?
I too drive a company car and can drive any of our other employees cars without problem too. So could for example opt for a 1.2 Fabia myself and borrow a Vectra VXR from a colleagye without problems. In fact if I director had an Aston Martin I could drive that too... not that I'd get the chance.
But we also get covered for relief/hire vehicles and a colleague with a problematic Jag X-Type managed to get an XJ-R from the dealer principal !!!! I'd like a problematic Jag to get that for a few days!!! :-)
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Although the Golf (in that spec) would not have been my choice the thing that strikes me is that if you can choose a brand new car and be bored of it in only a few months then perhaps the same will happen with whatever you replace it with.
How long is the lease?
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>>>Keep the Golf
Stick at it Pologirl, you will get to love it.
When my old border collie died aged 18, I bought a collie pup. It took a little while to get used to it, I still missed the old one, but after a bit I got to love her. I think that is your problem, you are still hankering after your old Polo.
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I think that is your problem you are still hankering after your old Polo.
If you changed your forum name to GolfGirl you could make a fresh start. Keep the Golf, change the name. ;-)
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L\'escargot.
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Out of curiosity, which Golf have you got, which engine? I suspect that the excitment of chipping it won't last long, the improvement probably won't be massive. Surely the car will still be boring, with anything other than a small performance increase?
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Out of curiosity which Golf have you got which engine?
Forum search reveals a Golf 1.9tdi sport
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=43...3
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Sorry - work unavoidably distracted me from the BR for a day or two.
I do love Gunther. I can't fault him.
He's perfect for my job, everyone loves him, he's a dream to drive, looks fab polished, but, he's just so...sensible and dull looking! And the newer Golfs come with so much more on them than mine did. There's a new Golf coming out next year so he will be truly obscelete. Whinge whinge whinge.
It doesn't help that I've been driving the other half's 170bhp Passat recently - now *that* is a car! Apparently, though, I need to be taught to drive a diesel - apparently I "have no idea about torque". Andy seems to have much more fun in Gunther than I do, so he might have a point.
>Get a GTi PoloGirl, you know you want one.
I do, in white. But at 20k+ a year, it would bankrupt me, and after a year I'd want the R32! I'm actually craving an EOS at the moment.
>Perhaps you should get an Alfa, I know it is a favorite of some of the mods or ex mods.
Indeedy. I'd love a Brera, and when better to have an Alfa than when someone else pays for all the repairs?
>Well, that didn't take long PG. And this is after yr passionate love affair with a Polo of all things!
Ah but Polo was so much fun! We had adventures together and you couldn't help but smile at him. The five years flew by with Polo, whereas the last few months have dragged a bit. Gunther is all big and grown up. And he can't beat *anything* off traffic lights.
>Stick at it Pologirl, you will get to love it.
Hmm...when I'm 30 and there's been a new Golf out for two years and I'm still driving mine, I'll try and remember that! Damned four year leases! Apparently if I can persuade someone else to take it on I can have something else, but there begins another four year lease!
So, back to the topic in hand, that's a no on the chip then!
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Go for the EOS
It is a car for cruising with the top down, not for going fast! My father descrbes it as a poser's car - certainly gets noticed.
But don't expect it to be fast - ours is 110kg heavier (diesels are heavier still) than my diesel Accord Tourer which is a far better handling car and with 140hp and loads of torque probably faster than the 150hp petrol EOS in anything but a straight line! Don't even consider the 1.6!
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Coming back to the original question nothing you do to a computer is ever invisible - it just depends on how hard the investigator wants to look!
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Just measuring boost against the manufacturers figures would be enough to prove a turbo engine had been remapped.
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PoloGirl, I hope you don't mind me asking, cause I'm a bit worried, I don't know quite how to put it, but
how long have you been married?
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>how long have you been married?
Er.... ?
I know it's a sensible Golf, but it is at least a 3 door. No family style 5 doors for me!
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Quote from HJ - "REVO is working on something similar,"
They have it and they call it SPS - basically you plug a small fob like device in to your OBD port (or whatever it is called) and select an option one of which is Revo's interpretation of your original remap prior to remapping and turn the ignition on and off. So when you loan it to SWMBO or take it in for servicing, warranty work etc and anyboy test drives it they aren't alerted to the 50 bhp and huge torque upgrade. Anybody measuring boost gets the standard boost readings and so on. You pick the car up, select the upgrade remap and hey presto 5 seconds later all systems go. So I'm told.
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I appreciate this might sound a bit high-and-mighty coming from a 21 year old with limited experience, but have you thought about doing an advanced driving course where they teach you to make the most progress as safely as possible, even with limited power? It just seems to be that getting a faster car might make you more likely still to not enjoy it and simply increase the chance of wrapping it around a tree.
Just my 2p.
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My 2 cents - Chipping my Mk 4 GTi made a massive difference to the throttle response & power, I too wasn't taken with it at first (150BHP) but I've had fun with it for 2 years now (although I'm changing up soon now...) COuld I suggest you get it chipped by REVO (Mega 4 in Surrey for example) and you can get a free 5 hour trial - it automatically goes back to stock after 5 hours driving time. I bet most go back & get it done permanantly after that! It's about 400 pounds, from memory.
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Presumably if you can set a timebomb in the program you could modify it to poll the airbag computer for deployment - and if so revert to the original software!
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Ah, I see - program it to remove itself in the event of a serious accident, so there's no trace left for an investigator to find.
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Suppose I buy a car that has been chipped by one of the previous owners and I genuinely have no knowledge of this. If I have a bad accident and the insurance company discovers the chipping or some residual evidence of chipping where do I stand?
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Is it REALLY possible to chip a car in a way that isn't detectable to either the people servicing it or the insurance company?
You can even get one so subtly chipped that even the driver cannot detect it.
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A few years back I had Superchips chip my Merc C270 CDI, and on chating to them they said that they sometimes have insurance companies asking them to interogate cars to see if they have been chipped.
I think this is where the insurers are trying to duck an expensive claim from a lairy Imprezza Turbo, or the like. If your car is otherwise stock, I doubt the insurance company would even think to investigate it, in the event of a claim. My Merc dealer never commented on the chipping (i.e. I don't think they were aware of it) but I did have it unchipped before I took it back to them to have the EGR valve replaced under warranty, just in case.
But more to the point, you will soon get used to the extra performance of a chipped Golf, such that you will soon find it boring again. So you will be bored but £400 lighter.
I suggest you get a more exciting car!
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Interesting thread to me, this.
I am having my 406 chipped tomorrow. It is the third car I have had chipped, the two previous ones were another 406 and a Passat. With the previous 406 I informed the insurance company. I didn't with the Passat. I wasn't going to tell the insurance about this chip, however reading this thread has got under my skin...
Result? I rang the insurance today and told them of my plans. I have parted with the extra £50-odd and am now safe in the knowledge that if I do have a prang, the insurance won't investigate and deny my claim on the basis of a chip. I don't think going down the lines of "it's not an Impreza, it'll be okay" is probably a red herring.... Unless you are an investigator you will never know.....
Thanks to the BR - my conscience is now clear....
DB
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But more to the point you will soon get used to the extra performance of a chipped Golf such that you will soon find it boring again. So you will be bored but £400 lighter. I suggest you get a more exciting car!
I had my Golf (1.9TDi PD 115BHP) chipped 6 years ago at 3 months old and I never get bored of it, its the fastest A-B car I've owned, I just wish my daily hack was as fast
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Anyone who drives a car they know is chipped and haven't informed their insurance company (assuming they have insurance) is breaking the law, driving without valid insurance and potentially endangering other peoples lives by driving a vehicle they know has been modified without taken the necessary precautions. If they can't afford the additional insurance premium then they can't afford the cash for a modified chip, either that or they are a total plank, grow up and get a responsible life.
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Anyone who drives a car they know is chipped and haven't informed their insurance company (assuming they have insurance) is breaking the law driving without valid insurance and potentially endangering other peoples lives by driving a vehicle they know has been modified without taken the necessary precautions. If they can't afford the additional insurance premium then they can't afford the cash for a modified chip either that or they are a total plank grow up and get a responsible life.
Both our cars are insured as modified, because they are.
I could fit cheap import tyres, brakes, suspension components etc and not inform my insurers and the insurance would'nt bat an eyelid
Which is the more dangerous?
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I could fit cheap import tyres brakes suspension components etc and not inform my insurers and the insurance would'nt bat an eyelid Which is the more dangerous?
Don't know what you mean by 'cheap import'. Lights, tyres, brakes etc sold in Europe have to meet EU type approval standards. There is a certain amount of stuff sold which is not E-marked (like some dodgy non-E-marked F1 tyres that are around at the moment), but these are illegal imports. If you fit anything to the car which is not of the original spec (e.g. different wheels, tyres, brake disc diameter, suspension ride height) then you are modifying the car. Most countries in Europe (and Aus) are very strict on modifications and even something like a change of wheel width can require an engineer's report.
Chipping your engine is a major modification. I know locally of an Octavia that was involved in a multi-vehicle accident and recovered to an insurance approved bodyshop. The insurance co. had the ECU removed for some reason - most probably to check for modification....
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My cars are fitted with either genuine VAG parts or an uprated part from a quality manufacturer. Both cars are insured as modified. My cars are legal, my conscience clear
I'll bet you could come up with a combination of brake parts that would perform in an inferior way when compared to OE, yet be totally legal.
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The first car I ever chipped was a 1997 Sharan TDI 90. I had a Webcon Torquemaster fitted (no longer around, I think) - a plug on unit rather than a re-mapping. I told the insurance company streesing that it improved torque and mpg (which it did) and they didn't ask for any more money.
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Anyone who drives a car they know is chipped and haven't informed their insurance company (assuming they have insurance) is breaking the law driving without valid insurance and potentially endangering other peoples lives by driving a vehicle they know has been modified without taken the necessary precautions. If they can't afford the additional insurance premium then they can't afford the cash for a modified chip either that or they are a total plank grow up and get a responsible life.
Let's get something straight. Provided a policy exists, the car is insured for third party claims, chipped or not. The insurance company won't be happy, and they'll probably seek to recover costs from the driver, but they aren't "driving without valid insurance." Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I am under the impression that you cannot remove "third party" cover.
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The driver will probably get an awful shock when his insurer comes to him to recover the third party payment it has just made!
AFAIK the modification does not allow the insurer to walk away from third party claims but it will give them the right to come after the person who breached the policy terms!
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We've got one and the autherised dealer approves of it. It was just a trip to Abbott Racing and they re-mapped it with their laptop. No hardware, no stickers, no problems.
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Having thought about it we are talking "firmware" here.
The mapping chip (EPROM) just carries an image which can be updated or replaced in total - the ECU however may store values elsewhere (more than one device in an ECU) which would indicate it had been done. I would suggest that no-one except (possibly) the ECU manufacturer knows how many of these there are and where they are stored - they WILL know some of them.
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