Fuel analysis after the horse has bolted is of little value. Insoluble contaminants should be in the filter and not in the pump, and water will be "agglomerated" in the bottom of the filter bowl. Only in the case of the most dire neglect will water get into the fuel pump and it would then make the vehicle stop dead or become undriveable as well as damaging the pump.
Soluble contaminants such as petrol will not be there any more. If you want to take a sample, do it from the low pressure side - it's all the same fuel.
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">If you want to take a sample, do it from the low pressure side - it's all the same fuel.<" {Pedantically} No, no and no ;-) , not if the source of the the contamination is within the fuel system; for example: the diaphragms of elderly SU fuel pumps can break up and contaminate the fuel filter, carb and pipework. I know this from bitter experience.
If ">Fuel analysis after the horse has bolted is of little value.<" then that strengthens the OP's original claim, Ford can't prove that contamination has occurred. I'm sure I've read somewhere that Ford have a standard test for determining contamination.
The OP must state that, to his knowledge, there has been no contamination of the fuel system.
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I would imagine that it is almost impossible to prove, one way or the other, whether there has been petrol contamination. If the problem started in the early part of the summer then any petrol, or possibly water, in the system will be long gone (particularly if its had work done on it and the fuel filter possibly been changed). All the dealer will find is excessive wear in the pump and it will be impossible to say whether this was due to a fault of the material used or due to petrol contamination.
I think what will happen is that the dealer will stick to the contamination theory and then it will be for the owner to take some kind of action against the dealer. Of course once the dealer has done the repair then he's unlikely to release the car until payment has been made. If it went to court then presumably Ford/dealer etc would be able to wheel in an metallurgist who will say that the problem was caused by fuel contamination. Ford will have a lot more riding on the case than the OP!!
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Ah, but Ford would have to prove in the balance of probability that the failure was due to petrol or water in the fuel, where is the report confirming that? Hopefully, the OP could provide a report stating that "The fuel analysis indicates that there was no trace of contamination. "
As I understand it, a County Court judgement doesn't set a precedent, so it's a one-off loss as far as Ford are concerned. Depends how far the OP wants to take it.
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Thanks for all the comments and suggestions.
Here is a little more information. The car was owned from new by a security company and was used as a company car by one of their managers. It has a full Ford service history and is in excellent condition. There is no evidence of previous repairs.
I have been back to the Ford service department and they have confirmed that there is a problem with the fuel pressure. This is additional to a couple of the other problems that they fixed in the past. The car does now run better than it did, but it is still not right. The problem set in on an extremely hot day in July when I was stuck in queue on the M5. The engine did not overheat, but it did get hotter than normal, which seems to have been the trigger for the fault.
The service department are saying that the cause of the problem most likely is due to contaminated fuel having damaged the injection system components. I asked them how they would be able to confirm this and was told "we will inspect the parts as they come off". They confirmed that I will have to pay for the repair before the car is released back to me and then they will inspect the parts later. Apparently inspection takes some time, maybe they send the parts back to the factory? I am not happy with this situation at all. I am sure that no petrol has been put into it in the last 10000 miles but of course I could have picked up some contaminated diesel.
I have contacted another Ford dealer but when I told them the fault history they said it would be much better to have the original dealer do any future work on the car since they have the background. They obviously didn't want anything to do with the car. Yesterday I contacted the Ford customer helpline but they simply referred me back to the dealer.
This morning I telephoned a diesel repair centre. They said they would have to undertake diagnosis but if fuel system components need replacing the "the clock will start at £1000".
After discussions with my wife I have now concluded that the best thing is to part-exchange the car for another model, I really do not want any more hassle from it. It drives bascially OK so I will visit a few dealers to see if someone will take it off my hands, although Ford dealers will not be on my list!
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When you are part-exchanging will you inform new dealer of your past problems with the car, or is that up to them to find out?
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Surely you have a good case against the seller ,Thats who you want to get your teeth into, money back,another car or repaired to your satisfaction.
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Menzies, a few points:
You mention the car getting hot on the M5 and the problem being apparent thereafter, did the gauge move above normal? If so it could indicate another problem, perhaps tell the dealer, it might lead to an inexpensive and warrantied solution to you problem. For instance perhaps the coolant temp sensor is playing up and sending dodgy info to the ECU.
Perhaps you should have visited another dealer "cold" though even then they would see the history on the computer.
You are likely to get a good response from Ford Customer relations if you write to them.
Re part-exing the car, any contemporary diesel is going to be as complicated as the Mondeo (there is another thread running re the Honda Accord), and be as susceptible to misfuelling or contaminant related problems (assuming that is the cause) The Mondeo is very numerous so problems are not unheard of however it is at worst average on reliability and has many other excellent attributes. I have done 110,000 miles in my TDCi from new and it has been virtually problem free, I have had excellent service from Ford dealers and also Ford Customer Relations relating to one issue I brought to their attention.
However the dealer's line seems harsh re the warranty, I would take a firm line with them, that you know that no petrol has been put in, it is up to them to prove contamination and until they do you expect the work to be carried out under the terms of the warranty.
Additionally as has been said you have a good case against the seller if it was bought within the last 12 months.
If you do get no luck with the warranty or the seller is it really fair to pass the issue on to someone else? They will surely find out because they will take the car into a Ford dealer and the history will be on their system. Perhaps this is what someone else did to you though two wrongs don't make a right. The car is presumably fine in other respects and you may well lose more in a trade in deal than it would cost to achieve a guaranteed repair so you may be better off simply biting the bullet and having it fixed and having the best out of a good car on going.
Regards.
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Menzies, part-ex it for a nice 2.0 petrol Mondeo and put all your troubles behind you. The TDCis are just too problematic.
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Menzies, part-ex it for a nice 2.0 petrol Mondeo and put all your troubles behind you. The TDCis are just too problematic.
Not at all, anyway if he does another 25,000 in the TDCi he will have recovered the £1000, 50,000 and he is quids in.
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Not at all, anyway if he does another 25,000 in the TDCi he will have recovered the £1000, 50,000 and he is quids in.
Surprise! Cheddar appears ... as if by magic ;-)
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Diesels are too complicated for their own good nowadays so many expensiive parts to go wrong, it is not just the higher initial cost- Turbos, EGR, injectors, particulate filters- go for a 2l petrol of any make!
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Thank you all for your interest and comments.
In response to the questions raised above:
1. I have had the car over 12 months so I do not have any case against the seller. The car ran ok for a year after purchase.
2. I am sure that I have not put any petrol in the car, however I have no means of knowing whether I have put in diesel that was contaminated with water or other substances.
3. Over the last three months the dealer has changed a variety of parts on the car, including the engine temperature sensor, the throttle sensor, the EGR unit, and vacuum valve. It has also been put on the computerised tester numerous times.
It is all very well saying that I should insist that it be repaired under warranty, but unfortunately I have no means of doing this. The dealer will not consider it for warranty until they have removed the fuel pump and so on, and inspected it. I would be placing myself in their hands totally and I have no way of knowing if they swapped my faulty pump for a genuinely contaminated pump and then charging me the full price. The Ford helpline simply refers me back to the dealer.
The outcome is that I have decided to get rid of the car in a part exchange. I know it may be possible to argue all of this through in court but my health has not been too good this year and I don't think I could stand the stress. I am very disappointed that Ford sell a car which seems so fragile in terms of its sensitivity to fuel.
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however I have no means of knowing whether I have put in diesel that was contaminated with water or other substances.
Remains of such contaminants would be within the fuel filter, again the dealer needs to prove contamination.
The dealer will not consider it for warranty until they have removed the fuel pump and so on, and inspected it. >>
Perhaps that is not too unreasonable, i.e. you are agreeing to cover the cost of the pump removal and inspection IF the dealer proves contamination. I such circumstances though they could at your instruction simply put the old pump back on.
I would be placing myself in their hands totally and I have no way of knowing if they swapped my faulty pump for a genuinely contaminated pump and then charging me the full price. >>
Perhaps they did that the first time you took the car to them, eh? That is an accusation really not worthy of comment.
The Ford helpline simply refers me back to the dealer.
As I said write to them.
The outcome is that I have decided to get rid of the car in a part exchange. I know it may be possible to argue all of this through in court >>
Write to Ford, not a stressful process and/or agree with the dealer a max price for you to pay if they remove the pump, inspect it and refit it, a price you would pay if they prove contamination. After all they may well determine that it is a manufacturing fault and the waranty will cover the cost in full.
health has not been too good this year and I don't think I could stand the stress. I am very disappointed that Ford sell a car which seems so fragile in terms of its sensitivity to fuel.
Any contemporary diesel is going to be as complicated as the Mondeo and be as susceptible to misfuelling or contaminant related problems however by p-exing the car you may well lose more in a trade in deal than it would cost to achieve a guaranteed repair. Also by keeping the diesel over a petrol car it would not take you too long to recover the cost of repair in fuel economy terms.
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">Perhaps that is not too unreasonable, i.e. you are agreeing to cover the cost of the pump removal and inspection IF the dealer proves contamination.<"
???!!! Definitely not. The OP might as well hand Ford his chequebook
If the OP wants to give up then that's his privilege, otherwise:
Get a fuel sample analysis. If the report is clear then write to the dealer principal, asking him/her to explain why Ford are refusing to repair Mondeo reg ****** under the terms of the warranty. Ask for a written reply within 7 days, cc to whoever is CEO of Ford UK this week. Fax and send by recorded delivery.
If the response is that fuel contamination has occurred, ask for a copy of the analysis report. If there is no analysis report, fax and post your clear report to the dealer principal and Ford UK CEO. State that there is no evidence of fuel contamination. Ask for a written reply within 7 days. If the problem is not resolved then re-send the documentation, cc to trading standards and motoring journos of your choice.
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If the OP wants to give up then that's his privilege,
Clearly though he may be doing himself a disservice.
If the response is that fuel contamination has occurred....
I think the point of principal is that it is up to the dealer to prove contamination and not for the OP to prove otherwise however under the circumstances I agree with your approach though a copy of the letter to dealer principal should go to Ford Customer Relations.
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A fuel sample analysis would be pointless. The dealer states (and I agree with them) that the fuel contamination is historical, it happened months or even a year or more ago. They are not implying contamination with solid particles (sand etc) but with petrol or water which would no longer be present in the fuel. The dealer is saying that past contamination would be evidenced through the nature of the wear/failure of the fuel system and they will be the judge of this. Given that a repair will cost at least £1500 and I will have to pay first and await the outcome of the dealer investigation to see if I get my money back I am not prepared to risk it.
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">they will be the judge of this.<"
Errr, no. Ultimately, a County Court judge could be the judge of this.
">Given that a repair will cost at least £1500 and I will have to pay first and await the outcome of the dealer investigation to see if I get my money back <"
I think Ford have won this one {shrugs shoulders, exit stage left} ;-)
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Strangely enough I do understand the dealer's positiion on this. We all tend to equate the dealer with the manufacturer. In fact the dealer is a customer of the manufacturer. The dealer would probably have to send the pump back to Ford to see if they get the part & labour refunded from Ford under warranty.
If the dealer does the repair under warranty, and Ford subsequently don't agree that it was a warranty repairt then the dealer will be seriously out of pocket. More to the point the service manager will get told off and won't get his bonus for that month.
I suspect with the expensive failures that occur on the TDCI systems that Ford are taking a tougher line on what is and what isn't a warranty repair, and if there is a chance that it could be down to contaminated fuel then they will wriggle out of it. I actually think the OP has done the correct thing in getting shot of the car, too much hassle and risk to plough on arguing the case.
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So if the OP is doing the right thing by trading it in, wouldnt it be nice if he posted the Reg No and Colour so that no unsuspecting backroomer end up with it!
(I suggest not until after he has done the deal).
--
pmh (was peter)
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