Help please with Ford diesel - A_Lees
Hi guys
I am posting this on behalf of my brother in law who has a problem with a Ford diesel Mondeo that is rapidly spiraling out of control. He is becoming depressed about it so I am trying to get some information to help him.

The story is that at the start of this year he purchased an exactly three year old Mondeo diesel, 2 litres. The car was purchased from a small scale car supermarket and was an ex lease car with a full Ford service history and nothing untoward in the documentation. He also bought a 12 month warranty with it (not from Ford). The car has done about 60thousand miles.

After 4-6 weeks it started to run badly and he took it back to the dealer who invoked the warranty. Some software was updated and a small part replaced and it was returned to him. After a month the problem resufaced. The problem was said to be an 'injector fault'. After keeping the car for three weeks whilst they replaced parts it was returned to him. The warranty company paid for this repair.
It then ran ok for another 2-3 months but then started to misbehave again. Basically it sometimes loses all power and sometimes there is no throttle response - sometimes there is. He has a long commute and this is clearly dangerous.

He took the car to a Ford dealer who kept the car for a week and couldn't locate the problem. It was then sent to a diesel specialist who have stated that it needs a new fuel pump and several other items at a cost of 'more than £1000'. They also say that they cannot 100% guarantee that this will fix it becasue they say that diesel Fords are quirky and there could be additional work required.

He has contacted the dealer who state that because he has had the car more than six months, and it is a different fault to the original one, they are not liable.
The warranty company say there is a limit to how much they will pay out and he has reached that limit with the previous repairs, so they are washing their hands of it.
He has approached Ford (because it has always been serviced by Fords) but they say that it is out of warranty and therefore entirely his problem.

So the questions for the experts in the backrooms are-

1. Is it right that the dealer has no liability after 6 months, even though the fault is very similar to one that occured after just a few weeks following purchase.
2. Is it right that the warranty company can restrict their payout, I believe it is something like £700 that they have paid out.
3. Do you think that replacing the fuel pump is likely to correct this fault.

My brother in law borrowed money to buy the car and may now have to borrow again for these repairs. He is also struggling to get to work, which is causing major family problems.

Cheers.

Ashley.
Help please with Ford diesel - Quinny100
There is nothing "quirky" about Ford diesels at all, it just that a lot of mechanics are more at home with a big hammer than interpreting the output from a fault code reader and making a diagnosis.

If the diesel "specialist" won't guarantee the work, go somewhere else. There is only one reason that the whole injection system would need replacing and this is due to internal failure of the high pressure fuel pump which will put metallic particles in the fuel - Ford have a prescribed standard test for this that involves draining fuel from the filter and using a magnet to check for metallic particles. Engines in this state will generally struggle to start and record a lack of fuel pressure fault code. This is a rare problem though, the design of the pump was changed early in 2002 to sort this out. Misfuelling is the most common cause on later cars - 52 plate on.

There are two relatively cheap things that would cause the loss of power and throttle response described. One is a failure of the potentiometer on the throttle pedal itself - sometimes this won't leave a code, but there is a code for this sensor being out of range. A new pedal assembly is about £60 and it pretty easy to fit - unplug the electrical connector, undp 2 bolts and its out. The other problem is the camshaft sensor failing which again is not too expensive.

I would advise that you get the car into a Ford dealer who is competent and knowledgeable with TDCi's, or to an authorised Delphi diesel specialist who knows what they're doing. Ford can use a mobile bit of kit to take live readings from the engine management system to diagnose any faults.
Help please with Ford diesel - DavidHM
1. Is it right that the dealer has no liability after 6 months, even though the fault is very similar to one that occured after just a few weeks following purchase.

Erm... probably not, but maybe.

Essentially the "6-month" period is the limit when any fault will be presumed to have been present at the time of purchase and the dealer has to offer evidence that it was not in order to defend any claim brought against him. Of course if it's the same fault, the burden of proof will remain unchanged once you can show that. After six months the burden falls on the purchaser to show that the dealer was in breach of contract at the time of sale/purchase - so obviously if the goods weren't faulty then, there's no liability for that fault as such.

However there is still the statutory term in a contract under the Sale of Goods Act which requires goods to be of "satisfactory quality" and you might be able to argue that a car which cost £6k and is undriveable after eight months isn't of satisfactory quality, in which case the dealer would be liable.

2. Is it right that the warranty company can restrict their payout, I believe it is something like £700 that they have paid out.

Yes, if that's what the warranty document says. The warranty company is a third party to the sale of goods contract and as such are pretty much free to contract on whatever terms they see fit - but if it's not in the contract then they can't unilaterally impose a limit after the event.

3. Do you think that replacing the fuel pump is likely to correct this fault.

No idea - and some of the people who live in Technical Matters might know better than I do.
Help please with Ford diesel - Aprilia
I don't claim any great expertise in modern Diesel systems, however a friend of mine is a Diesel specialist and is seeing quite high volumes of direct work from cars of this vintage that are in the hands of their second or third owners. He also has a steady stream of business from the local dealers, inc Ford and Vauxhall.

The local Ford dealer is pretty large and long established, but the fact that they are shipping them out to my mate to fix indicates that dealer expertise is thin on the ground and problems are not that uncommon. I know he's fitted new pumps and/or injectors to a number of 2003 cars and I believe the price is in the region of £800. He has a lot of diagnostics kit, including what is effectively a 'blanking plate' to shut off the diverter valve on the output of the pump (which is what regulates the rail pressure) - this allows the pump to pressurise the rail up to max pressure and thereby check out the pump, rail and injectors.
Whether all these problems are due to mis-fuelling or not is open to conjecture - but I guess its a handy get out for the manufacturer to say 'you must have put some petrol in'.

I can understand the reluctance of the dealer to offer a 100% guarantee that the problem will be fixed. If the car has a history of problems and the specialist doesn't know what has been done in the recent past then I guess he's just trying to cover himself. Unfortunately fixing these cars is not as simple as reading a faulty-code reader and bolting a new part in place. There is far more to it than that.
Help please with Ford diesel - cheddar
I would vouch for all that quinny100 says and would add that IME Ford dealers are very good as are Ford customer services, I would find another dealer and get a stiff letter off to Ford Customer Services (a Glasgow address) about how the car should not have problems so close to the expiry of the three year / 60,000 mile warranty and that you expect Ford to help.

Re dealers, where are you, or rather your BiL? We might be able to recommend a dealer and/or a diesel specialist.
Help please with Ford diesel - A_Lees
Thank you for your comments gentlemen.

I passed these comments on to my brother in law. He has found the warranty small print and it seems they limit claims to a maximum of £750 over the twelve months of the warranty. So he is on his own. He has previously contacted Ford customer services and they just restated the warranty conditions, 3 years and 60000 miles and nothing beyond that. He is going to contact trading standards department concerning the dealer who sold him the car even though it has been more than six months.

The car has been to two very large Ford dealerships who one would think would employ deisel engine experts, and the first one replaced software and at least one sensor, perhaps the one Quinny100 mentioned. The second Ford dealer could not properly diagnose the problems and that is why they sent him to the diesel specialist. They refunded the £120 diagnosis fee.
He has told the specialist to go ahead with the work and he will just swallow the bill. He is borrowing my wifes car until friday, which is when the job should be sorted. I will post a message to let you know how it goes.
One thing I would say to anyone is that if you take a warranty on one of these cars then make sure that it offers enough of a payout to cover complex repairs.
Help please with Ford diesel - A_Lees
I should say that we are in the west midlands.

Thanks.

Ashley
Help please with Ford diesel - Aprilia
Ashley

The Ford TDCI's (like many other current CR Diesels) make a lot of sense for the high mileage driver who buys new and sells after 3-4 years. He's had his money's worth from a nice car and the manufacturer warranty means its financially risk free motoring.
They make much less sense as a used buy out of manufacturer warranty. They still attract rather higher used prices than petrol equivalents, and yet the chances of a really nasty bill are much greater. As my friend says, one 'wobble' on these diesels and you are usually looking at a major bill - which is hardly what a cash-strapped private buyer needs on the driveway.
In fact I think your BIL has done rather well out of the warranty he bought. A lot of these warranties only pay out on a breakdown (i.e. the car has to literally stop moving in the road and need recovery). I'm surprised they paid out on a 'hesitancy'.
Despite comments further up the thread about Ford dealers, I'm really not surprised that Ford won't help. They have never had a reputation for being benevolent toward customers and in fact have often come out poorly in dealer satisfaction surveys in the likes of What Car?, Which? etc. I suspect if they started extending warranty on TDCI's they'd be losing even more money than they are today!
Help please with Ford diesel - cheddar
I disagree Aprilia.

As I said in the "Why buy a diesel" thread my TDCi has averaged just under 50mpg over 110,000 miles so the £4000 plus in fuel savings would go along way to any expensive repair costs.

Furthermore I reckon a 100,000 plus mile CR diesel is likely to be in better general mechanical condition than an equivelent petrol at the same mileage so while CR injector pumps etc are pricey they are a lot cheaper than new 2.0 16v petrol engines.
Help please with Ford diesel - Aprilia
I disagree Aprilia.
As I said in the "Why buy a diesel" thread my
TDCi has averaged just under 50mpg over 110,000 miles so the
£4000 plus in fuel savings would go along way to any
expensive repair costs.


I know you are very enthusiastic about your TDCI, and you have clearly racked up a high mileage in a short space of time. This makes a TDCI a good buy for your application. Mind you, if you are getting 50mpg then you are spending your driving time at a steady speed cruise. I think they mostly come in at a bit less than 50mpg.......
Furthermore I reckon a 100,000 plus mile CR diesel is likely
to be in better general mechanical condition than an equivelent petrol
at the same mileage so while CR injector pumps etc are
pricey they are a lot cheaper than new 2.0 16v petrol
engines.


Why would it be in better mechanical condition? A turbo'd two litre Diesel engine with high specific output is under more mechanical stress than a two litre petrol engine. Combustion pressures etc are much higher and there are a lot more parts on the engine to go wrong.
Help please with Ford diesel - cheddar
Why would it be in better mechanical condition? A turbo'd
two litre Diesel engine with high specific output is under more
mechanical stress than a two litre petrol engine. Combustion pressures
etc are much higher and there are a lot more parts
on the engine to go wrong.


Combustion pressures have always been higher in diesels however they have generally lasted longer, furthermore at any given road speed the diesel engine will be turning over perhaps 20% more slowly so will have revolved around 50 million less times than a petrol over 100,000 miles.
Help please with Ford diesel - Aprilia
Combustion pressures have always been higher in diesels however they have
generally lasted longer,


You cannot extrapolate experiences from older-style Diesel engines with low specific outputs to modern CR Diesels which often have a similar, or higher, specific output than their petrol equivalents.
The Ford Duratec petrol engines were designed by Mazda and I would be surprised if they don't last at least as long as a CR Diesel.
Help please with Ford diesel - cheddar
You cannot extrapolate experiences from older-style Diesel engines with low specific
outputs to modern CR Diesels which often have a similar, or
higher, specific output than their petrol equivalents.
The Ford Duratec petrol engines were designed by Mazda and I
would be surprised if they don't last at least as long
as a CR Diesel.


Petrol engine specific outputs are also rising. I agree re Duratec though am talking more generally.
Help please with Ford diesel - jase1
A Nissan Primera, on the original engine, was recently sold on ebay with 450,000 miles. It had been a taxi.

There's no reason why a well-designed petrol engine shouldn't be able to cover the miles.
Help please with Ford diesel - Martin Devon
Keep that oil changed boys!

vbr..................M.
Help please with Ford diesel - kithmo
Combustion pressures have always been higher in diesels however they have
generally lasted longer, furthermore at any given road speed the diesel
engine will be turning over perhaps 20% more slowly so will
have revolved around 50 million less times than a petrol over
100,000 miles.


Correct my 6 speed TDCi Mondeo is running at under 2000 rpm at 70 mph and returns between 55 and 60mpg at that speed.
Help please with Ford diesel - David N
this thread i finf really imteresting

i have had two diesel mondeo in the past 12 months, both company car, both 115bhp euro 3 5 speed versions, one a 52 plate the current one a 54, which is now on 70000 miles. it exhibits similar traits.
1, if it stalls there is no throttle responese for a few seconds
2, in the recent hot weather it would not accelerate below 2000 rpm, very noticeeable around towns and turning into junctions
3, despite recent work involving new EGR valve, it is still not right
4, the other car had similar traits too

my dealer just says , " we've updated the brain, see how it goes", well it doesnt!!

oh yes it goes like poo off the shovel on the motorway, and cruises happily at 90 all day, but to be honest fuel consumption even if i am carefull is poor at below 40.... my 2.2 vectra diesel was much bettter in the engine dept, and the current 1.9 CDTI versions leave the fords gasping

some dealers can cope with work out the orduinary some cant, think i will try a new dealer next time..

but this engine has had its problems( no they all do that sir its a characterisitc!!) from day one, the sooner it is replaced in the new mondeo next year the better

Help please with Ford diesel - cheddar
oh yes it goes like poo off the shovel on the
motorway, and cruises happily at 90 all day, but to be
honest fuel consumption even if i am carefull is poor at
below 40


Clearly indicating something is wrong, a TDCi 130 can do well over 50 mpg on the m/way.


.... my 2.2 vectra diesel was much bettter in the
engine dept,


The TDCi is infinitely more refined that the 2.2 Vectra, and the the 130 produces 25% more torque!


and the current 1.9 CDTI versions leave the fords
gasping

>>

Clearly a further indication that yours is playing up.


some dealers can cope with work out the orduinary some cant,
think i will try a new dealer next time..


Good idea, let us know where you are, we may be able to recommend a dealer.


Help please with Ford diesel - A_Lees
Time to report back.

I gave my BIL a lift down to get the car today and the repair has been done. We had a chat with the technical guy and it looks there was an internal electronic fault in the fuel pump.He said that hes replaced and few and in fact had a focus on the lift undergoing the same repair. The total cost for the problem, including money paid out by the warranty company is about £1800 which is completely mind blowing. The two ford dealers are totally useless in diagnosing the problem, but as the deisel mechanic said, it is very difficult to prove that theere werent other oproblems that they fixed. So getting any sort of refund would be a problem, although the warranty paid for it anyway. The guy said renault and pugeot have the most faults, toyotas are best, so buy jap cars lads.

We took it for a run and it goes well now, which is should considering the cost of repair. I could buy a decent used motor for the cost of fixing one of these.
Help please with Ford diesel - Aprilia
Glad you got it sorted. The DDS systems used by Ford are made 'down to a price' and are not the most robust - hence the occassional component failure. Unfortunately the cost of components and the investment in staff training and diagnostic kit means that they are expense to fix when they do 'throw a wobbly'. Ford dealers are not known for high levels of customer satisfaction, so your experience does not surprise.

I just hope that the car now proves economical so that you can at least recover some small proportion of your investment!
Help please with Ford diesel - cheddar
Glad you got it sorted. The DDS systems used by
Ford are made 'down to a price' and are not the
most robust - >>


Aprilia, you make regular digs at the Delphi componentry used by Ford though present no real evidence. You mention poor connectors relative to Denso though I have not heard of one connector related problem in a diesel Mondeo or X-Type. It is clear that relative to the number of vehicles on the road and the mileages covered the Duratorq TDCi units are amogst the most reliable as well as being amongst most efficient and refined so there cannot be much wrong with the components used.


>>Ford dealers are not known for high
levels of customer satisfaction,

>>

That is simply not true!!! Although as with all dealers they vary from dealer to dealer, Ford dealers have done very well in customer satisfaction surveys over the past three or four years, ahead of MB, VW, Audi etc.

Help please with Ford diesel - Aprilia
Cheddar

You keep going on and on about your Ford TDCI and how good it is etc etc. They are a nice car when they're working well. However they CAN be problematic - I know that from the people that repair them - they are getting plenty of business fixing these cars, and remember that there are not actually that many out there (they were only introduced a few years ago). You say you have not heard of problems with them - well I have, and take a look at the thread you are posting on!

I don't think Ford dealers have ever been particularly highly rated for their service. In Which? August 2004 they have a 'dealer rating' feature. Ford come in about 3/4 the way down the table. Admittedly they are above the likes of Fiat, Chrysler, Renault and VW - but that is damning with feint praise. You will perhaps argue that this is down to 'expectations' - i.e. you think people expect Ford to be outstanding and therefore downgrade the dealer when they are not - I would argue the opposite; I think people do not have particularly high expections of Ford, they just expect them to be average.

In terms of overall reliability of these cars, you will find that in Germany DEKRA and ADAC produce annual car reliability guides. These are extremely detailled and based on very large sample sizes (someone once posted a web link on here). The TDCI's do not come out particularly well (nor particularly badly, I have to say). They are about average for reliability. Whether or not this is acceptable to a buyer is for them to judge, but given the potentially high costs or repair it is wise to be very cautious when buying a second hand example.

Let me make it clear that I actually think the Mondeo TCDi is a very nice car. They handle well and are a pleasure to drive when running well, but like many modern CR Diesels they are using complex cutting-edge technology produced at a bargain price. If I needed to cover a large annual mileage and was planning to sell the car at 3-4 years then I would seriously consider buying a new example. I would not consider buying a used example at 3-4 years - they are not a car you want on your hands at 6+ years or so.

What is your response to the problems highlighted in this thread? There is the original poster and then another chap who's apparently had two faulty TDCI's, all with poor response from the dealers (all presumably different dealers) - are they imagining it all?

There is a poster on the BR (Screwloose) who repairs these cars professionaly and I would be very interested to hear his opinion - although I think I can guess what it would be!
Help please with Ford diesel - Aprilia
Just read my own post and noticed an error - the Which? dealer survey is August 2006 (not 2004).
Help please with Ford diesel - cheddar
Aprilia,

>>You keep going on and on about your Ford TDCI and how good it is etc etc. >>

No I dont keep going on and on, I simply tell it as I find it. The fact is that mine has been great over 4 years and 110k miles and it still compares well with numerous other similar cars that I take the time to drive, the dealers have also been good. If I had a 2 grand CR related bill I would not be chuffed thoigh having saved IRO £4500 in fuel costs over a petrol car I cannot complain too much, further more the resale is better despite your best efforts to knock CR diesels at every opportunity.

and remember that there are not actually that many out there (they were
only introduced a few years ago). >>


The 2.0 and 2.2 TDCi in the Mondeo and X-type and variants in the Transit must be one the most numerous diesel engines on the road today and also must cover a very high average annual mileage per unit. It might seem like a recent introduction however it is coming up to 5 years ago that the 2.0 TDCi 130 was introduced in the Mondeo in which time many have gone on to do stellar mileages.


>>not heard of problems with them - well I have, and
take a look at the thread you are posting on!

>>

Thats the nature of a motroing forum.

You will perhaps argue that this is down
to 'expectations' -


No I wouldn't!


i.e. you think people expect Ford to be
outstanding and therefore downgrade the dealer when they are not -


No, my point about expectations relates to Seat and Skoda versus VW and Audi, Ford came into it due to the previous Galaxy being a variant of the Sharan and Alahambra.

In terms of overall reliability of these cars, you will find
that in Germany DEKRA and ADAC produce annual car reliability guides.
These are extremely detailled and based on very large sample
sizes (someone once posted a web link on here). The
TDCI's do not come out particularly well (nor particularly badly, I
have to say). >>


The Focus has been at the top of the Dekra ratings on a number of occasions.

Help please with Ford diesel - Aprilia
You seem to be extremely sensitive to any negative comment about Ford and their TDCi - are you a Ford employee?

I do not 'knock CR Diesels at every opportunity' - as stated previously I think they make a good buy for high-mileage drivers buying new. My view is that they are a much less sound buy at 3-4 years old for the private buyer. This thread seems to provide excellent supporting evidence for that view. There have been quite a few posts in 'Technical' where people have experienced CR Diesel problems and have been remedied for less than £1k. How many people want to cancel the family holiday because a fuel pump has packed up?

If you want to see some who really knocks CR Diesels then do a search for posts by 'Screwloose' - he repairs them.....
Help please with Ford diesel - cheddar
You seem to be extremely sensitive to any negative comment about
Ford and their TDCi - are you a Ford employee?


No and frankly Aprilia I really think it is a bit much when one cannot defend a product and company from whom good service has been forthcoming without being accused of having an ulterior motive. I am simply a satisfied customer!

And I can tell you I have not always been a Ford fan, to the contrary despite my dad having various Fords, amongst other cars, when I was young I had a string of Vauxhall company cars, not because I did not have a choice, rather at the time I thought they offered the best combination of value, equipment, performance etc. However I got fed up with the dealers making a mountain out of minor problems and have found three different Ford dealers to be a revelation in comparison.

There have been quite a few posts in
'Technical' where people have experienced CR Diesel problems and have been
remedied for less than £1k. How many people want to
cancel the family holiday because a fuel pump has packed up?


So on that basis I would still be at least £3500 better having run a CR over 110k miles compared to a petrol car, that is assuming the petrol car did not need any unforseen repair.

If you want to see some who really knocks CR Diesels
then do a search for posts by 'Screwloose' - he repairs
them.....


Frankly (for the second time) Aprilia, I reckon Screwloose's posts are more balanced than yours in that regard.


Regards.
Help please with Ford diesel - GregSwain
Why does every thread about diesels become a "petrol vs diesel" argument?!?!?!

Aprilia is correct - CR diesels make brilliant sense for a high-mileage driver who buys new and only keeps for a few years. Modern petrols seem more reliable in the long-term, and are less likely to throw up £1k worth of problems in one go.

Diesels aren't perfect, and the Ford Duratorq certainly isn't. Petrols aren't perfect either, although they're a lot simpler than CR diesels at the moment. Diesels used to last a long time because of their simplicity. Fitting a common fuel rail with huge diesel pressure (thousands of bar), at a low price, will of course compromise the long-term reliability of the injection system.

Yes, the technology is economical, because it turns the injected fuel into a fine mist rather than a squirt. It's also quieter, because the fuel is injected several times per stroke. But it isn't long lived, as we regularly hear on here.

Lastly, 110k is no mileage for any car. Old Vauxhall Petrols used to last 300k, as did PSA diesels.
Help please with Ford diesel - cheddar
Why does every thread about diesels become a "petrol vs diesel"
argument?!?!?!>>


it is not petrol -v- diesel as such rather it is contemporary diesel economy and drivability -v- possibilty of costly CR (PD, piezzo or whatever) repairs, petrol, as the alternative, being the benchmark comparison.

My point is that if I had to pay £2000 now in CR related repairs I would still be £2500 better off than if I had had a similar 2.0 petrol car from new.

Aprilia is correct>>


Usually, I agree, though not always. ;-)


>>Diesels aren't perfect, and the Ford Duratorq certainly isn't. Petrols aren't perfect either, although they're a lot simpler than CR diesels at the moment. Diesels used to last a long time because of their simplicity. Fitting a common fuel rail with huge diesel pressure (thousands of bar), at a low price, will of course compromise the long-term reliability of the injection system. >>

The same was said about EFi, ABS etc etc, there are a lot of 5, 6 , 7 year old CR diesels on the road and very few horror stories.

Aprilia would argue that higher specific outputs will effect a diesels mechanical longevity however petrol cars are also increasing in specific output. take the VW 1.4 turbo/supercharged (TSi?) as just one example, technology in part designed as an alternative to diesel producing over 100 bhp / litre, two types of augmentation, is that going to last as long as a CR diesel engine?
Help please with Ford diesel - A_Lees
Hi Guys

The BILs Mondeo diesel is still running OK but hes gutted at the cost. Repair prices for these are totally totally insane and to mcuh for an ordinary working guy. Aprilia is correct that these are OK if they dont go wrong. Neither BIL or I are technical but when you look under the bonnet of these mondeos there is just so much stuff under there and its all packed in really tight which I guess is one reason why repair costs are so extreme. at the end of the day a mondeo is just an average family car, its nothing special, repair costs should be far more modest. You expect to pay out on Mercedes repairs, but over £1000 for an electric fuel pump on a Ford is outrageous. The ford dealers didnt really seem to know how to fix it either its like alien technology to them.
Help please with Ford diesel - paulb {P}
Having read this thread I'm starting to wonder if I should take the TDCi badge off my Mondeo and replace it with one saying Timebomb.

Aside from

1) correct maintenance,
2) driving with mechanical sympathy,
3) not running the tank down too far and using one of the better brands of diesel (Shell Diesel Extra tends to be my preferred brand, mainly because the Shell garage I go to is one of the cheapest in the county and is also on my way home), with regular doses of Millers for good measure, to ensure the fuel system stays as clean as possible,

is there anything else that I can do to reduce the risk of this sort of expensive failure? Or is it one of these things that is a matter of luck, irrespective of how carefully I look after the car?

I'd also be interested to know whether either of the 130 or 115 variants shows a greater propensity to develop this kind of fault than the other, or whether they are about the same. These appear to me to be the most common examples and they must both be fairly numerous.
Help please with Ford diesel - cheddar
Having read this thread I'm starting to wonder if I should
take the TDCi badge off my Mondeo and replace it with
one saying Timebomb.



You clearly have not read all of the thread then.
is there anything else that I can do to reduce the
risk of this sort of expensive failure? Or is it
one of these things that is a matter of luck, >>


Premium diesel is a good idea, NEVER making the mistske of putting petrol in helps and, as with any failure, luck comes in to it. However as I said above it is clear that relative to the number of vehicles on the road and the mileages covered the Duratorq TDCi units are amogst the most reliable contemporary diesels as well as being amongst most efficient and refined. Aprilia acknowldges above that TDCis "are about average for reliability" not too bad for engines that are apparently so complicated and must cover significantly higher than average mileages.
Help please with Ford diesel - paulb {P}
You clearly have not read all of the thread then.


Actually, I have: the overall message I got from it was that

a) Mondeo TDCis are excellent cars (a view I would wholeheartedly endorse on the basis of 3 months and nearly 6,000 miles of ownership of one), but
b) at 3-4 years old have a tendency towards developing engine faults that seem to be both difficult to diagnose and extremely expensive to repair, and
c) the general standard of dealer service is patchy.

As I had planned to keep my car for 5+ years (and it was already 9 months old when I bought it), you'll appreciate that point b) is of particular concern to me. c) is less of a worry as the dealer I have been using seems to be very efficient.

However, if I have misunderstood what was being said, then I apologise.

Help please with Ford diesel - cheddar
>> You clearly have not read all of the thread then.
>>
Actually, I have: >>


Sorry if I was terse :-)



>>the overall message I got from it was .....................
b) at 3-4 years old have a tendency towards developing engine
faults that seem to be both difficult to diagnose and extremely
expensive to repair, and


That is, I believe, a misconception that has been propogated here, yes, if faults develop it can be costly and yes, faults do occur though not more readily than with other contemporary diesel. If problems appear to be common they are only in line with the popularity of the engine type in the market. The 2.0 and 2.2 TDCis are fitted to the Mondeo X-type and variants are in the Transit making them fairly numerous and they cover a higher than average annual mileage per unit.
Help please with Ford diesel - Mad Maxy
Cheddar, I'm glad you've had a good result from TDCi experience, but your 'survey' covers a sample of one. Statistically I find Aprilia's evidence (concerning Ford dealers' performance as well as TDCi reliability) far more compelling. In fact this thread, with input from other posters, has been very instructive.

Glad too that A_Lees's BiL got a result, and (fingers crossed) hope that the solution has been found. Hope too that the chap recovers from his financial ordeal...
Help please with Ford diesel - cheddar
Cheddar, I'm glad you've had a good result from TDCi experience,
but your 'survey' covers a sample of one. Statistically I find
Aprilia's evidence (concerning Ford dealers' performance as well as TDCi reliability)
far more compelling. >>



I have never mentioned a 'survey' though my experience goes beyond my own vehicle, Aprilia does not really present any firm evidence so I cannot see how it can be 'compelling' though even he, as I said in my last post, acknowldges that TDCis "are about average for reliability" which is not too bad at all once the fact that they cover much higher than average mileage per unit is accounted for.

Help please with Ford diesel - rtj70
I've had two EGR valves fail on my Mondeo TDCi since it was new. Third birthday approaching. First failure allowed it to still drive but second ground it to a halt.

Mine is a company vehicle but do not think I would buy any common rail diesel privately out of warranty. Too risky until the support network there.

Help please with Ford diesel - Gazza
I am with paulb on this one and am planning to sell my 53-reg TDCi Ghia X in the next six months or so. As many of you know, I got mine six months ago at a very good price. Since then I have driven it from 96k to 109k and averaged 40mpg in central London, full-throttled country-road and fast motorway driving.

I liked the Mondeo but, aside from the uncertainty of expensive repair, just didn't like the engine/gearbox combination and the fuel consumption.

Firstly, the engine has dreadful throttle response - a lot of pull from 0% to 25% of throttle but no change between 25% and 100%, regardless whether it is within the turbo zone or not.

Secondly, it requires too many up and down change. From 5mph (1st) to 80mph (4th), it requires 3 gearchange whereas my old QX could have done it all in 2nd.

Thirdly, the fuel consumption is heavily dependent on throttle opening. I did an experiment where I have driven the same 45 miles trip from Canary Wharf to Rehill in Surrey for the last few months and it returns 42 mpg if I use 10% to 40% throttle compare to 36mpg if I use 75% to 100%. Yet, I did not felt much difference in acceleration.

Lastly, it fails to match the manufacturer's combined figure. For the trip above, both figures are below the combined figure of 45mpg. My old QX 3.0 returned 26mpg on the same trip driven fairly quickly vs. quoted 23mpg.

Furthermore, my regular trip from London to Edinburgh takes 5h 45m to 6h using A1 and A68, averaging 65mph to 70 mph for the whole journey. The Mondeo returned 46mpg, about the same as what's quoted, yet the QX returns 30mpg, 30% better than quoted. Now, I know that manufacturer's quoted combined mpg figure is not accurate but I expected with similar driving style, all cars give a similar trend to whether it is above or below the combined mpg figure.

However, I dislike the throttle response from all diesel cars, including the automatic 530d I drove for a week. I prefer small throttle = small acceleration and more throttle = more acceleration.

My next car will probably be a Celica, though I can only afford a 140, or a Corolla 190. Which is better will be in another discussion thread.
Help please with Ford diesel - rtj70
>>> I am with paulb on this one and am planning to sell my 53-reg TDCi Ghia X in the next six months or so. >>>>

Mine has just under 46k on it and has had problems. Not sure I'd risk it out of warranty.

>>> Firstly, the engine has dreadful throttle response >>>

Apart from when I had EGR problems (and some TDCi Mondeos also need their ECU updating) the throttle response and acceleration is good. You're not going to get to 80mph in two gear changes quickly but mine could do (eventually) with no gear change... but most diesels do not rev like a petrol. You're comparing a 3.0l petrol QX with a 2.0 TDCi Mondeo. How about we compare a 4.0 Audi diesel with your old 3.0l petrol QX??? Which would be quicker I wonder. Apples and oranges comparison both times.

Finally your MPG in the Mondeo for London - Edinburgh about 50% better than the QX. And that's for each miles so a big saving? No? According to Autoroute London to Edinburgh 397 miles. So at 86p/l for petrol and 92p/l diesel. And your 46mpg for Mondeo and 30mpg for QX... The Mondeo cost about £36 in diesel where the QX cost about £51 in petrol. Each way difference is £15. If this is a regular run and you do not like diesel you have money to burn. I've got close to a real 60mpg out my Mondeo at times.

Furthermore (after the finally)... you get used to diesel torque... might be what you have not got used to. Sure an auto 530d fine to drive. Took me a bit and the Mondeo is said to need getting used to. On a test drive of a Euro III version I stalled it at the dealer. The Euro IV that I got was no problem.
Help please with Ford diesel - cheddar
The characteristics Gazza describes are turbo related and not TDCi or even diesel specific, if you depress the throttle perhaps 25% of the way down and hold it acceleration will build at this constant throttle opening, this is a function of the way turbo charging works, I actually like it, the feeling of being shoved forward and having to lift off slightly just to reduce the rate of acceleration.

This does mean that the first 25% of the throttle provides perhaps 75% of the performance, however on most TDs you can make indecent progress not exceeding 3000 rpm and using the wave of torque to shove you along as per above rather then revving it for every last bhp, ultimately the latter would only be slightly faster and IMO it is less satisfying, in say a winding road situation, changing down and revving hard between corners than letting the wave of torque waft you from corner to corner.

Help please with Ford diesel - Aprilia
A_lees

That fuel pump was not really expensive at £1k. It is operating to tolerances and pressures much higher than any other piece of hydraulic equipment you are ever likely to encounter - including military aircraft hydraulics, ABS systems etc etc. A small fragment of human hair inside it would be enough to wreck it. I suspect that the reason it failed was nothing to do with the fuel used, but more likely a component failure due to it having to be made down to a price. Failure of these HP pumps is not exactly rare - the specialist breakers sometimes have them, but they sell quickly. My friend has sourced a number of these for customers - I will try to find the contact details and post here in case its of interest to others. I think he has had them for around £300-400. Of course the snag with buying a used item is that it may be faulty, or worse still shed swarf into the rest of the system and wreck it, so it really needs to be checked out by someone who knows what they are doing.
Help please with Ford diesel - Aprilia
Gazza

I understand what you mean about the throttle response.

In a typical turbodiesel you get a non-linear response with a small lag added in - some people can live with it and others can't. I recently drove a new Vectra Diesel auto. It was absolutely superb for cruising at 60-80mph - very very quiet and engine just ticking over. Unfortunately in urban driving it was an absolute pig - the lack of linear throttle response, coupled with a bit of turbo lag and then auto-transmission lag meant that pulling out of a junction was a 'lull' followed by a sudden burst of acceleration. Not pleasant at all. I drove a Renault Megane 2.2 Diesel (6-sp) in the summer and that was bad too. The best of bunch, IMHO, are some of the Pug HDi's, but they suffer pretty bad relaibility problems and the factory changes the design every month.

In terms of fuel economy, I think the manufacturers always overestimate these days. Which? give the Mondeo an overall figure of about 42mpg.
Help please with Ford diesel - cheddar
I am told that the most common cause of CR injection pump failure is mis fuelling, petrol in the system breaking down the diesels natural lubricicity. Likewise PD pumps IIRC.

In a respect I suppose that this supports Aprilia's earlier point in as much as buying second hand you cannot be sure what a previous owner has done in this regard. On the otherhand I know someone who spent nearly £1000 getting diesel out of a Volvo's FI system in the days before petrol cars had smaller filler apertures. Apparently Ford will soon launch a design of filler aperture for diesels that does not allow the smaller unleaded nozzle to be inserted.

Also one hears of water in the oil filler, brake fluid in the washer, etc etc. So many problems can be down to finger trouble or brain fade.
Help please with Ford diesel - 659FBE
The PD "pumps" (actually unit injectors) are more tolerant of mis-fuelling than CR high pressure pumps because nearly all of the moving parts are lubricated by engine oil.

Reaching for cover, from experience I would say that Bosch fuel systems are made from the very best materials and machined and hardened under closely controlled conditions. I cannot say the same for the Delphi systems used by other engine makers.

659.
Help please with Ford diesel - GregSwain
I agree with a lot of the comments posted recently... my girlfriend's Clio DCi is an absolute pig to drive in traffic, it lurches forward, then stops dead and nearly stalls (just with light throttle movement), then when you need some heavy acceleration absolutely nothing happens for a good second! It also runs as rough as hell when cold, but apparently all this is normal.

The old Pug 205D it replaced smoked a bit on a cold start, but ran fine, had good throttle response and was a lot easier and more pleasant to drive. Economy is the only factor where the Renault wins, and as the engine design is nearly 20 years newer, this is perhaps to be expected. CR is one step forward, 2 steps back IMO. I'm dreading any fuel system problems which might arise in future, £1000 for a new Delphi pump doesn't sound appealing.
 

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