Without wishing to give the pedants their own thread, or start a backroom war, another thread has prompted me to ask whether in general terms people think advanced driving is worthwhile: if so, why, and if not, why not?
In my own experience, I chose to do the IAM at my own expense really just out of interest and passed in January. I took about 13 lessons which is above average I believe.
There a monthly meetings but I must say that mostly these are not my cup of tea. However occassionally there is an intersting speaker or activity.
My training was carried out by a Senior Observer. He was good, but firm about what habits I needed to kick to get through the test. Hence the number of lessons. During my training I was given a pre-test (to ensure readiness for test)by an even more Senior Observer who I felt at the time was extraordinarily pedantic (as are some members during meetings) but with hindsight he was instrumental in me passing the test.
My Observer tacitly acknowledged that there are some things that are done pretty much only for "test purposes". The convoluted cockpit drill for one. We also discussed the merits of not driving to the letter of Roadcraft all of the time, and another Senior Observer (friend) has just picked up some speeding points, which somewhat bears this out.
However, Advanced Driver training was for me a fantastic experience, and I am without doubt a considerably safer and more aware driver than I was previously. That's not to say I don't speed or that I won't ever have an accident. But I'd like to think that I am much more aware of risk, better at reading situations and generally a smoother (and, in places, faster) driver than I used to be.
Personally I would recommend it to anyone.
However, people who haven't completed advanced driving seem to feel that rather than do it themselves, they can pick holes with the theory, or that the theory doesn't work in real life. It is the basis for professional emergency drivers, and as such I don't see that the techniques can be in dispute.
So, do you think advanced driving training is worth it or not?
IMO this discussion would be better if we stuck to the principles and just use details for illustrative reasons.
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It's a great pity that the basic driving test allows access to vehicles of considerably more performance than a basic test pass driver is able to handle safely.
I think that the Advanced test should be a pre-requisite for anyone driving a vehicle any more powerful than a shopping run-around.
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I think that the Advanced test should be a pre-requisite for anyone driving a vehicle any more powerful than a shopping run-around.
Whilst what your saying isnt a bad idea, I dont think its going to stop some people doing what they like afterwards. Think of it as sex education, yeah they tell you this and that and you could die of an STD, but many clearly dont care.
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I think that, as shown by your own example, advanced training is a very good thing, but especially when the trainee has the intelligence to think themselves about why certain techniques are taught etc.
The danger with given rules is that some people can use them blindly instead of common-sense. In those cases, is it possible that the extra set of rules given by IAM or whoever just result in an even wider set of circumstances where the person will not bother to engage their brain?
As you've said yourself, there are senior people in the oirganisation who find situations where it makes sense to not follow the rules.
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Having just seen the original thread, you have said yourself what I've tried to in my last post, and quite possibly been more successful at putting it into words!
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So, do you think advanced driving training is worth it or not?
Yes
i passed the advanced driving test at 20 after three minor collisions. Definitely recommend it for people a couple of years after their test and they have a bit of experience under their belts.
Just learning the obvious stuff about anticipation, reading the road and car control was useful, and you're not taught it when you're learning to drive (at least i wasn't in 1989).
The cockpit drill (i remember it now) is good practice i suppose, but really, who wants to live their life by drills? It just seems prescriptive and belongs to an earlier age when cars were likely to break down and garages weren't open 24 hours. I would have to dig out my copy of Roadcraft, but i bet that half of the contents of the cockpit drill could be addressed once you're strapped in. One example, one should start the car then put their seatbelt on, IIRC in case the car doesn't start. Fine if the car is a Morris Marina, but today, really there's no need, my car always starts first time. And if it doesn't, try again!
My membership lapsed shortly i passed the test, sadly it did seem full of "mature" drivers who got worked up about things, much like some of the strong views expressed on here about left foot braking and turning off your headlights at traffic lights. Some of them got very agitated indeed, and very vocal. I did go on a skid pan though, so it wasn't all boring.
Overall i found the IAM a bit stuffy and from a different age, but the test and training definitely paid off. If driving is your life's passion, join, pass the test and enjoy the club aspect, and maybe try to improve it. If you want to learn to drive better, still join and pass the test, it's well worth it.
And by the way, i have never ever got a cheaper car insurance quote having passed the advanced driving test!
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I had a feeling that my comments earlier might open a can of worms, so I'll add a little more about me and my background.
I've never done the IoM or ROSPA thing, I've never felt teh need.
Some years ago the company I was working for changed from two locatins to one. This meant that I now ended up working in the same office as someone who lived down the road and it made a lot of sense to share the lift for the fortyfive minute journey to the office. The guy I shared a lift with was an IoM observer. I didn't know this until I'd been driving him to and from work for a few weeks. He was very happy with my driving. Its someting that I've thought about over the years, analyzing what's going on and makign sure that I make good progress and stay safe.
My comments in the other thread are repeated below. Please note the use of the word ANY in the first sentence. It applies to ANY training, not just motoring training.
>>One thing often troubles me with any form of training is that >>some interpret it as the perfect way, the only way and that no >>variation should ever occur. It stops people from thinking that >>whilst most of the time the training is giving best current >>practice, there are always going to be occaisions when it >>doesn't apply.
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I read often, only post occasionally
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I haven't actually done the IAM stuff, But I have qualified as a driving assesor for a previous company. This entailed a 3 day course with an IAM observer level instructor. He basicaly took us through the IAM stuff. Can't say it was too much of an eye opener, but then with a car, bike and LGV licence I have already had quite a bit of advanced training, but it was good fun and there was stuff to be learnt. Might do my IAM at some point, but for no other reason then personal satisfaction (same applies for my PCV which I may take at some point).
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I know i'm not perfect - and that is half the battle. I intend to do either IAM or ROSPA in future when time allows, but for now am comforted by a recent experience.
Briefly, I had to pick up a driving instructor client of mine to take him to the tax office for an 'interview'. Just having him in the car made me over cautious, but after about ten minutes he told me he only critises driving when he is being paid to, but he would have asked me to stop if I was bad. Thankfully the 'interview' also went well with no corrections required to the return.
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"I know i'm not perfect - and that is half the battle. I intend to do either IAM or ROSPA in future when time allows"
Same here, now 40 years since I took and passed my test and I'm sure that there are a few bad habits that I have got into of which I am not aware. Mind you, my wife is no shrinking violet -and she's a damn good driver - who let's me know if she thinks I am doing anything wrong!! "Too close!!" is a favourite of hers if I am within 100 metres of the car in front - she hates tailgaters!! I still enjoy driving and, I hope, take a pride in doing it well and curse myself if I do make an error (don't we all occasionally??)
An IAM course would be a good refresher though.
Phil
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I'd quite like to do it, but I know I'd hate the kind of person who wants to be an observer and that would detract from the pleasure. It's like being local councillor - anyone who wants to do it should be automatically excluded from doing so.
I'll just have to console myself with the knowledge that as I'd pass it first time, but not be a bore about it I'm better than they are.
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"I'll just have to console myself with the knowledge that as I'd pass it first time, but not be a bore about it I'm better than they are."
No offence mate, but you are never so old or so perfect that you stop learning, and there is no-one on earth who can't benefit from a bit of advice somewhere. There must be one tiny aspect of your driving that would benefit - if not, how about becoming an instructor/advisor/observer so the rest of us could benefit??
Phil
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I too passed the IAM advanced driving test, and feel that it did improve my driving - and my attitude.
However, the IAM bike test (and observed rides) were *far* more useful - not only with regard to riding the bike, but in general roadcraft - especially overtaking.
The IAM bike meets are also considerably more interesting than the car meets. How many IAM car groups book track days ?
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Now that I'm retired and have the time, I'd like to go on an IAM course. How much do they charge per lesson and how long does each lesson last?
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L\'escargot.
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There is no charge per lesson. ISTR paying about £80 for my first year, which included all lessons (regardless of how many), the test, membership of the national group. I have a feeling that membership of my local group was an additional £15.
The renewal has just come through from IAM HQ and that is for £18 (pa). I don't believe mebership of your local group is obligatory once you have passed the test, but obviously to keep it alive you would need to pay the HQ sub (which gets you a quarterly? magazine)
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Gosh, this really has stirred up a hornets' nest hasn't it?!
I too would recommend any form of advanced driving, although from my experience the ROSPA training did seem more thorough than the IAM training, although that could just be specific to my experience of different groups at two different times.
Applying the principles of Roadcraft in every day driving is a matter of degree to some extent, and doing a 10 min cockpit drill EVERY time you get into your car does seem to be OTT. However, I personally have chosen to apply my increased (but far from perfect) awareness of the HWC as much as possible and make a point of not waving pedestrians across a crossing, flashing other vehicles etc. I agree that doing such actions are motivated by courteousness and appreciation of the other's road experience, but I am simply not prepared to partake in contributing to any situation where there COULD be some level of ambiguity.
As I think I tried to say in the original thread, such courteous acts are likely to be interpreted in the way that they were intended. But then again, they could be totally misinterpreted and I don't wish to run the risk (albeit a small one) of contributing to any situation. We all have one set of rules in the HWC - why should we knowingly deviate from it?
I can genuinely say that I don't cross my arms when steering unless in a really confined space at low speeds and I rarely break the speed limit. I am not being virtuous about this or expecting anyone else to believe me or to do the same - I'm just making a statement of fact. I personally find that applying the 'proper' way of driving to be a lot more comfortable and has increased my awareness of everyhthing that is going on around me and developed my confidence in controlling the car in a systematic and methodical way.
Good discussion, let's keep it going!
TT (32 years of age and not the typical IAM member!)
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Top Turkey - the fastest hands in Brum
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The IAM test certainly started to make me think more for other drivers and compensate for them. I have always been a relaxed driver and I think that this helped me towardds passing the test with relatively few observed runs. My local group do no not like the term lessons and, indeed, they are not. The observers will pick up on errors or bad habits and will point you in the right direction to improve your driving.
I am still trying to perfect some of the parts shown to me over a year after my test but I know that the only reason fir this is that I tend to drive only the same routes every day without changing. So my advice from this is just go for a drive - anywhere that you don't know. It makes you think!
I too find that some "instructions" are too rigidly held - 3rd gear in 30mph and 4th gear in 40mph limts, for example. Yes, I will use 4th in 30mph limt if there is not a lot going on around me. Talking to an observer he agreed - the best thing is to apply the training with a bit of flexibilty to suit the conditions.
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where I live the iam badge on the front of a car acts as a warning to other roadusers.
I spoke to the local iam some time ago, they were all elderly, obsessed with obscure trivia and driving slowly. Everyone I spoke to said that exceeding 70 mph on a clear day on an open motorway was dangerous.
I have always been of the view that the slavish following of rules is for people who cannot think. Guidance and best practice is more useful.
fwiw I had a number of lessons from an ex-special forces and police instructor when I first learnt to drive, which was also when I first read roadcraft.
I know that my driving isnt perfect, but the iam was a real turn off.
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What I would like to see the IAM incorporate or some other body is to give drivers a taste of what it is like to drive other vehicles on somewhere like MIRA or an army site that has streets & buildings. That way car drivers could drive HGVs or PCVs to show them what it is like to drive larger vehicles & let them see what putting a car in a no go area involving a large vehicle is about. I'm sure that could only help normal car drivers be more aware & keep themselves safer as well, by getting to see how other vehicles on the road operate other than sitting what is just a more intense version of the driving test. Then I think the IAM would be a good thing.
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"Everyone I spoke to said that exceeding 70 mph on a clear day on an open motorway was dangerous"
Well, this is clearly wrong isn't it, and I wouldn't agree. I would agree that exceeding 70 mph on a clear day on an open motorway was illegal according to the current definitions. If you exceed 70mph you certainly brake the law but don't neccesarily drive with more risk. Whether that argument would wash if you got pulled over by one of the BiB, I'm not prepared to test.
Certainly my experience of IAM members "driving slowly" is not upheld. There is an insistence on making good progress at all times (within the speed limit) and driving at a speed that is below the limit is frowned up if the conditions allow a safe drive at the maximum legal speed.
TT
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Top Turkey - the fastest hands in Brum
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In front of me I have a leaflet from the ADAC, the RAC equivalent here in Germany. It offers a 5 hour training course involving a skid pan, steering technique, braking and anticipation for ?84. Think it could be a good way to spend an afternoon. I´ll let you know how it goes.
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I commute on the M1 every day, and my experience is that in good driving conditions the 70 limit is ignored by almost everyone, including the Police.
The de-facto dry weather UK motorway speed limit is 85-90 mph. Unless you are driving faster than this, or driving aggressively or erratically, the Police simply are not interested.
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I passed my IAM test at 20 (Would have been 19 had it not been for odd insurance issues on a local group level which suspended observed drives for 2 months). I found it hugely useful, but the local group does appear to consist almost entirely of people with beards. This is an image they are keen to lose, they want more younger people which I guess is why I have been asked to train as an observer.
Saved 50 quid on a 1100 quid policy, so very little. Oddly the pointless Pass Plus scheme would have saved more.
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to consist almost entirely of people with beards
is this a good or bad thing?
seriously, isn't any form of extra training a good thing, at least it shows someone wants to drive better
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Having witnessed four IAM graduates' driving in recent years, I can think of no better reason *not* to do the test. One of these people was my late grandmother, her driving was truly appalling. I don't think her front passenger seat was used much - no one would go out with her. Two others are also no longer with us due to old age, no more. I would not have rated their driving very good. But the worst is someone I currently know of, aged early 40's. This 'Advanced Driver' has wrecked numerous cars, including slamming his parents' car into a milk float. He has also knocked a motorcyclist off and put him in hospital. The court decided on a verdict of driving without due care and attention. I would have said dangerous driving was more suitable.
Some years back I investigated the insurance issue. Quite a lot of insurers gave no discount for IAM and the few that did were OTT on their premiums anyway. But the biggest thing that gets up my goat is the arrogance of some IAM people I have met. We might be debating an aspect of driving safety and they always pop in the quote 'I am an Advanced Motorist'. So what, am I supposed to be impressed? Because as much as I've tried, I'm not.
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I'd agree re insurance. The discounted premium was at least twice my Direct Line premium...
I'd agree regarding speed - brisk progress - on my first observed run I was mildly criticised for going too slowly (about 50 in a 60).
I'd also agree regarding perception of the IAM - it has the wrong image for today - but how many of you "non-believers" actually have bothered to do anything to confirm your perception?
I can't agree that because one has a preconceived image of the IAM organisation and it's members it means that advanced training is not worth considering. Unless of course you already know-it-all :-)
btw The IAM is trying to target younger drivers (see the Max Power campaign - tinyurl.com/7hlqz).
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Re your second line smokie: same here! My observer seemed to think that the national speed limit was to be achieved at all times. On the roads we were on at the time, greasy and twisting, I thought discretion was required. I used to ride motorbikes, and am used to estimating grip. Didn't really like the pedantic approach. Other than that, there were a number of useful techniques, esp. verbal commentary on the approaching hazards. Perhaps its a matter of personalities?
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I am a current IAM associate, and have my test on Wednesday. I agree with roadcraft, and I think I agree with the IAM's ideas, but I havent' been too impressed with some of the observers.
The first observer I saw on a demo drive, and too be honest, I think I drove better than him lol. He was even hard on the brakes when going over humps :-o.
Some of the advice my observer has given me has been a little worrying too. I was driving to roadcraft before starting the IAM, and I have noticed very little change in my driving.
I do obey all of the rules in everyday drive, and always have done. I always stick to the speed limits too!
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The Christmas pressie, I bought for Mrs V, last year (if you remember the debate, as to whether I'd survive her response, was unfounded) was www.ridedrive.co.uk & a 1/2 day with them.
Well worth the experience, she feels!!
VB
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I passed my IAM test at the young age of 19 years old. I must be sad.
Anyway, I found the experience quite a challenge, but with the expertise of my brilliant observer who was passionate about driving safely, I passed. I even did the better driving course in worthing which was also run by the same observer.
I think there is no doubt in my mind I am a better driver.
I found that the car control technique, coupled with improved observational skills are important skills to learn and I now appreciate why they were taught so strictly.
I have a smoother way of driving, and feel more confident in my driving.
I liked the idea of always ending a drive with comments in my mind what made that journey safe, what was good in my driving, what was bad and how I will improve. Self improvement is very important in driving as well, and seeing ones own mistakes in their driving and doing something positive about it.
The running commentary is another great idea to develop.
So overall, I think the money and effort spent will pay itself back 10 fold in terms of less accidents, safer more relaxed and less stressful driving, lower running costs etc.
Well worth it in my opinion!
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I would say the IAM training/test is worth doing. I passed the test earlier this year and my driving has generally been more relaxed and smoother since then.
Although sticking religiously to speed limits is essential for the test, IAM techniques are not about taking the enjoyment out of driving. On the test itself, which I took in an MX-5, the tester informed me of a rural twisty national limit ahead and said I have a sporty car and that I could go ahead and enjoy the road.
There seemed a relatively high number of younger people (i.e. 20s or 30s) like myself at the assessment drives on Sunday mornings, a number of whom seemed to have 2-seater open-tops as well!
At my age in London, Admiral have always been one of the lowest price insurers and they do offer a small discount. As said above, the hidden saving comes from the better technique and less likelihood of an accident and having to claim.
The most useful technique applied since the training for me is when pulling up behind another car, leave enough gap to see where the rear tyres touch the road. It makes pulling off at the same time as the car in front so much easier. If everyone did the same at traffic lights, congestion could be seriosuly cut.
The only downside is that once passed, I don't really know what you do with the group. You pay the annual charitable donation (that can be gift-aided), get the regular magazine, but contact from my local group has dried up.
James
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Did you register with your local group? You may need to pay them a sub too. Ours has a monthly meeting plus a monthly newsletter.
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"leave enough gap to see where the rear tyres touch the road. It makes pulling off at the same time as the car in front so much easier."
Why is this so?
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If the car in front breaks down you can drive round him easily!
The car in front is less likely to roll back and hit you.
Just try it and you will find it easier!
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First is possible, second is more likely but most likely he will change his mind when teh lights change so you'll be trapped behind someone waiting to turn right. With space, you can get round him.
Not heard of the moving off one, but I can see that it would be smoother, if you aren't glued to someone's bumper.
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"leave enough gap to see where the rear tyres touch the road. It makes pulling off at the same time as the car in front so much easier."
Why is this so
As soon as the car in front starts to pull away, which is easier to judge if you can see the tyres, you can start to move as well, but have enough gap to stop again if needed.
If too close, it's a bit like a compressed spring. The spring needs to release again i.e. there is a delay in you moving off after the car in front.
Worth a try, especially if you are next to a more aggressive driver at the lights who goes right up to the bumper of the car in front.
An added bonus of the technique is that if the car in front breaks down (or you are about to be carjacked), you have an escape route to the left or right. Less chance of being bumped if the car in front rolls back. Also less chance of hitting the car in front if you are hit from behind.
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An added bonus of the technique is that if the car in front breaks down (or you are about to be carjacked), you have an escape route to the left or right.
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Of if the traffic queue is stalled then execute a 3 point turn and find another route.
Often done on major routes in the rush hour and to hell with the traffic coming the other way.
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I understand the leaving a gap for getting round a stalled car bit but I don't think looking at the tyres makes any real difference to moving off quickly. In any case staring at the tyres is an odd thing to be doing when you can anticipate the traffic moving by looking through the windscreen of the car in front and be getting more info from generally looking around you.
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Re: the leaving a gap so you can see car-in-front's wheels:
1 - It gives you and person-in-front space if they roll back or inadvertedly select reverse (i've had that a couple of times).
2 - it gives pedestrians reasonable space to walk between the two cars.
3 - it gives space to pull around car-in-front if you need to (admittedly unlikely to ever crop up)
4 - it's less imtimidating for the person-in-front. We all get wound up about people hanging onto our bumper, so behave as you would like others to.
It does work in crawling traffic too. If you leave a big enough gap, you can keep your wheels rolling rather than brm screech brm screech.
I now remember that a challenge in the IAM was to drive for 30 minutes and never let your wheels stop rotating. Easy on a motorway, but try it in a town or in the country. Good use of anticipation and timing the lights is needed.
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I misunderstood, I read it that the looking at the tyres was the important bit which is what sounded barmy to me.
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I often play the "keep the wheels rolling" game. It keeps you alert and brain active in mind numbing traffic!
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RF - currently 1 Renault short of a family
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Well worth the money and time, 'red mist' now 99% gone from my driving.
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Tried the IAM a good couple of years ago and the meetings were the holyier than thou sort of thing. Driving fast and safe was not on the menu. Then went to ROSPA to do my motorcycle course, which didn't happen for various reasons, but the meetings were far better and less of the don't exceed the limit even if overtaking attitude. The ROSPA exam is or was taken at 3 grades and had to be retaken every 3 years I think.
I got pulled for doing 103 MPH on the M62 a couple of years ago and appeared to get off when I said I was doing the ROSPA course, when the very nice policeman said that the IAM course was not upto the standards of the police courses, after I had said it would not do my advanced riding course any good being pulled like this. See the post I made then.
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=11252&...e
Anyway I have done advanced motorcylcle courses (1 day) but have never passed the IAM or ROSPA courses but of the two I think the ROSPA one is better from what I have seen
Bill
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