Camshaft.Re-profile or not? - Quinny
What benefits,if any,apart from cost,can you get from a re-profiled camshaft?

The reason I ask,is because on my Citroen AX autograss car,a lairy cam is £300+,whereas I can have the current GT cam re-profiled to the lairy one for £100,thereby putting the savings to another part of the car.
Camshaft.Re-profile or not? - cheddar
The only issue is whether increased valve lift is required as opposed to just changed timing/overlap, if so they have to add metal to the existing cam lobes which can be expensive and subsequently less durable however if this is what you have been quoted for then bearing in mind the application it should be fine.
Camshaft.Re-profile or not? - Number_Cruncher
I think Cheddar is on the right track.

However, it is easy to change the lift of an existing cam without adding any metal. By removing material from the base circle, i.e., reducing the base circle diameter, and leaving everything else the same*, you get increased lift; lift being given as the difference between the base circle radius, and the radius between the centreline of the cam, and the tip of the cam nose.

By removing an eccentric sliver of metal from the base circle, you can make small changes in timing, but for larger changes, then you are better off starting from a new blank.

* Even by reducing the base circle diameter, it is necessary to make some adjustment to the profile as the follower comes off the base circle and begins to lift, the transition must be smooth, even for higher derivatives of follower motion, otherwise you would get a noisy cam, which could wear quickly.

Number_Cruncher
Camshaft.Re-profile or not? - L'escargot
If valve clearances are adjusted by the use of shims then you may find that removing metal from the camshaft lobes results in it no longer being possible to achieve the specified valve clearances. Also, you may remove some or all of the layer of surface hardening.
--
L\'escargot by name, but not by nature.
Camshaft.Re-profile or not? - cheddar
NC and L'escargot's points kind of sum it up, if you remove metal from the 'base circle' as NC suggests then you will need longer valves or very oversize shims to achieve a reasonable clearance.

Must say I am not sure if the AX is bucket-and-shim re adjustment, IIRC it is single cam so rockers must be involved, also if it is hydraulic then solid lifters will probably be required.
Camshaft.Re-profile or not? - Number_Cruncher
The re-profiled cam will tend to have smaller base circle diameters and nose circle diameters than the one machined from a blank. As the contact stress is inversely proportional to the contacting radii, the re-profiled cam is, all other things being equal, working at higher stress levels.

This higher stress makes any re-hardening operation carried out after machining more critical.

From the dynamics perspective, it is likely that the follower motion resulting from a re-profiled cam is not as 'smooth' as with one machined from a blank. If the engine is to be used at high engine speed, the re-profiled cam will need stronger valve springs to keep the follower in 'contact' with the cam profile. This extra spring force will produce, propotionally, greater stress in the surface material of the cam.

Whichever cam is chosen, it is best practice to renew all the rockers, etc., at the same time. This prevent wear lips and ridges caused by running under one loading regime becoming 'bearing' surfaces after the cam change.

IIRC, screw adjusted rockers are fitted, so the valve clarance should be able to be reset easily. Once the cam has been modified, I would regard the original clearances as being a lower limit, and would not be too concerned if they are left a little wide.

So, to summarise, I think that the main difference between the two options is one of longevity and reliability.

Number_Cruncher

Camshaft.Re-profile or not? - rebel
Number Cruncher is right - A reprofiled cam will have a smaller base circle diamiter. This allows for greater lift, duration and valve acceleration, but at the expense of greater loading on the whole valve train.

Now bear in mind that the valve gear is most highly stressed at low RPM (hence most cam belt faliures occur at cranking speed or idle).

At the much higher engine speeds used in race engines, a reprofiled cam should be fine.

Many race engines use a smaller diamiter cam than their lower revving road going cousins.

All (both) of the main companys able to reprofile a cam accurately will also be able to heat treat it correctly and advise on or supply suitable valve train components to compliment it!

Incidentally, i'm a semi retired autograsser (class 9), so good luck with it.

Regards, Reb
Camshaft.Re-profile or not? - Pezzer
Autograss ? Assume this isnt a Chinese Windscreen replacement Co, or a compulsive police informant, but some form of autosport I've not come across. Please illuminate this ignorant fool.

Thanks P
Camshaft.Re-profile or not? - Adam {P}
Lol. I never expected to laugh at reprofiled cam shafts. Thanks Pezzer.
--
Adam
Camshaft.Re-profile or not? - Pezzer
My pleasure - I'm sure theres one in there about funny cigarettes too but I'll quit while I'm ahead :-)

P
Camshaft.Re-profile or not? - rebel
Autograss is probably the least well known of UK motorsports but has the most participants. It is very basically oval racing on grass / dirt tracks.

www.loosenet.co.uk/nasa/

In some of the classes, you'll see inovation, engineering, and moneys worth which would make many respectable circuit formulas look dull.
Camshaft.Re-profile or not? - Pezzer
Aha, didnt know that this was called Autograss, have seen these being towed aroung and had assumed it was some sort Banger or Stock car racing. Looks like fun !

Thanks P
Camshaft.Re-profile or not? - rebel
Look at the clss tens - Upwards of 400 horsepower, in not much more than a glorified go kart, on a quarter mile dirt oval - Yea, thats fun!
Camshaft.Re-profile or not? - Number_Cruncher
---------8<-------

Now bear in mind that the valve gear is most highly stressed at low RPM (hence most cam belt faliures occur at cranking speed or idle).

At the much higher engine speeds used in race engines, a reprofiled cam should be fine.

---------8<-------

I can't really agree with the whole of this point of view.

At start up, there is a lot of friction between the poorly lubricated parts of the valve train. However, as the engine speed rises, the inertia force of the valve begins to dominate (force proportional to speed squared) the spring force remains remarkably consistent, simply being a function of the valve's position (until really high speeds when the spring surges!).

The complicating thing about this inertia force is that during times when the valve is decelerating in an absolute sense, the contact loads are lighter at high engine speeds, however, while the valve is accelerating in an absolute sense, the valve contact loads are higher at high speed.

The reason why cam belts tend to fail at low engine speeds is because here any torsional crankshaft oscillations due to partial misfires, roughness, etc, result in a large, oscillating, camshaft drive force.

I would argue that for high engine speeds, the re-profiled cam is at a disadvantage, besides its inherent, radius driven, contact stress disadvantage, but also due to its poorer dynamics, which are really only shown up at higher engine speeds.

Number_Cruncher
Camshaft.Re-profile or not? - Number_Cruncher
The complicating thing about this inertia force is that during times
when the valve is decelerating in an absolute sense, the contact
loads are lighter at high engine speeds, however, while the valve
is accelerating in an absolute sense, the valve contact loads are
higher at high speed.



Please excuse my paragraph of complete twaddle and nonsense above. What I meant to say was:

The complicating thing about this inertia force is that during times when the valve is reaching the end of its opening motion, and beginning its closing motion, the contact loads are lighter at high engine speeds, however, while the valve is beginning its opening motion, and reaching the end of its closing motion, the valve contact loads are higher at high speed.

Apologies for any confusion caused.

Number_Cruncher
Camshaft.Re-profile or not? - Quinny
Sorry for the delay....been away.

This weekend sees the biggest event in our calendar,the Mens Nationals.

For information,see the link below,and then follow the further link at the top of the page for the Mens Nationals.

If you want some spectacular action,then come and see for yourself what it's all about,and then perhaps post back on this site afterwards.

www.yorkshiredales.uk.net/

To get there,take the A1 north,and come off at the B6267 Thirsk split,just after the Quernhow cafe,and at the bottom of the sliproad,turn left,and keep going for about 3 miles.

From the North,come off at the B6267 south,and then double back under the A1,and again,follow the road.

I personally compete in Class 4,which is 1130cc max,with unlimited mods.

However,probably the most spectacular class is 7,where twin bike engine saloon cars,usually Seicento's or Cinqucento's because of their lightness,are usually the favourite.Not surprising with one engine on each rear wheel!!!!!

Class 10 is twin bike engines in a sort of a go kart chassis,and these are quick as well.