But if the car thief knows that all he has to do is drive fast through an urban area and the police will give up, that's the first thing they'll all do.
What's the alternative?
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more helicopters
and dual use them as ambulance and police helicopters, would be much more efficient and give many more options if the helicopters had dual roles in this way
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I would second that - but the problem is one of cost.
Depends on the size of helicopter but even for the smallest you are talking thousands of pounds per day.
I get complaints of the cost of hiring our helicopters from my customers who are the Arabs who have all the oil and gas so you can imagine what your average local authority would say.
Buying,maintaining and running any helicopter with all the necessary pilots and ground support staff is a VERY expensive way of catching your average joyriding scroat.
Do you want that extra cost on your community charge - its bad enough as it is.
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Simplistic view: Police car drivers are amongst the worst on UK roads; they kill or injure over 6 people every day of the year, on average. Ban the police from driving cars and the accident statistics will improve.
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Simplistic view: Police car drivers are amongst the worst on UK roads; they kill or injure over 6 people every day of the year, on average. Ban the police from driving cars and the accident statistics will improve.
If that's not a joke it's rubbish
If it is a joke it's not funny
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Back in the middle eighties, I worked for Rediffusion simulation helping to produce cockpit procedures training and full motion flight simulators. (Ever flown a Beech King Air 200 from Bombay to Delhi without leaving Aylesbury, missing out the boring transit in the middle, and meeting an Airbus A310 coming the other way on final approach?! I have, and it was great!)
I recall that for one customer we had to hire a Long Ranger at Kidlington to produce the necessary sound recordings for later digital sampling as well as to get some real life performance ratings for the instruments.
I am sure that the cost was of the order of many hundreds of pounds per hour. Admittedly this rightly contained an element of profit for the owner, but then most local authority machines are leased and maintained using private contractors anyway, so profit will (rightly) still apply.
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Before we start considering the cost of providing helicopters, think what the cost of deaths and serious injuries mount up to.
The incident that I referred to above could easily have resulted in the death of someone in the car involved in the collision. How would they have excused the action taken if, say, the baby had been killed? For what purpose? To apprehend a thief? To recover a stolen car?
If a thief escapes and it means a member of the public escapes death or injury, then it is worth it. The cars often end up being trashed anyway.
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if the scroats when caught were given more realistic sentences you can be sure a lot less of them would do it
spending lots of energy catching them to let the courts send them straight back out on the streets must be soul destroying
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Simplistic view: Police car drivers are amongst the worst on UK roads; they kill or injure over 6 people every day of the year, on average.
Another Lockerbie every 2 to 3 months? Wasn't a joke (posted as tongue-in-cheek) but I am quite frankly astounded at the number of people killed or injured by Police drivers - these are people supposed to have had special training on how to drive in excess of the speed limits in a safe manner (and maybe goes to show that driving a Vectra at 159mph does not make you a good or responsivble driver after all). Something is clearly wrong with the driving "skills" or behaviour of our Police force when they get behind the wheel of a car. The situation must be addressed as a matter or urgency....but by whom?
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Thank God for people like Leif above. He sorts the wheat from the chaff.
Saw the garbage the BBC reported on this subject on noon news.
Lets make sense of this and disclose blameworthy accidents instead of heaping all the blame on the head of Plod. I.e. on the way to a shout with blues and twos and pedestrian, heedless of all the warnings, walks out in front and bang. Plod to blame. I think not.
Plod followng Joe Scroat and indicates for him to stop with blues and twos etc. Scroat takes of and is followed and involved in accident. Plod to blame. I think not. The blame must surely rest with the inablity of scroat to stop car. He should be castigated but he isn't. Schhhhheeee.
What about increase in road traffic on the road?
Why Greater Manchester has more PolAccs than say Norfolk. Look at the blinking map.
It goes without saying that pursuits involve a risk factor.
Joe Public has to decide one way or the other whether Plod has to be allowed to pursue or not. Not to pursue, well, might as well give over to scroat, we have done in my other respects.
Lets find out where the blame lies and place it in that court.
DVD
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The figures do state "collision with a police vehicle", which is different from someone crashing because they've been chased.
Personally I think they should fit James Bond style rocket launchers to police cars and anyone not stopping gets it!
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Police should be given special powers to be allowed to kick the crap out of joyriders once they?ve dragged them out of the car. It would make "Police, Camera, Action" and "Road Wars" far more entertaining.
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I think one or two people in this forum might have a change of heart if someone close to them was a victim of a police chase.
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dvd, blues and twos does not give the right to plough people down
im thinking particualrly of people who are hard of hearing
especially when plod are racing the wrong way up a one way street or similar, if you cannot hear, you just would not look when pow police car stops an inch from you - or not
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I'm sorry - but are you honestly suggesting that the Police surrender powers to chase people? Honestly?
Therefore, as someone said above, all I have to do is murder someone and then drive fast through a residential area to get off. What's that I hear you say? "Well of course they'd chase muderers". Would they? Where do you draw the lines at crimes that warrant a chase? Speeders get chased. That's a minor crime. Do we stop chasing them? Joyriders get chased. Do we stop chasing them given how reckless they are?
If I was a Dad and my son got mowed down by a joyrider after having had a Police car chase it and give up because it was "too risky", I'd be asking questions.
And if you're deaf/blind/stupid, you'd be looking/hearing both ways up a one way street before you cross a road. If you get hit, it's your problem.
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Adam
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If I was a Dad and my son got mowed down by a joyrider after having had a Police car chase it and give up because it was "too risky", I'd be asking questions.
I think someone is more likely to be mown down because a chase isn't stopped. One only has to watch the recordings of these chases to see that the drivers of the pursued cars usually end up becoming increasingly reckless. If being chased persuaded them to give up, I would agree with you, but it often doesn't.
One of my original questions was directed at how the police would decide that to continue the chase would be too risky.
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Simplistic view: Police car drivers are amongst the worst on UK roads; they kill or injure over 6 people every day of the year, on average. Another Lockerbie every 2 to 3 months? Wasn't a joke (posted as tongue-in-cheek) but I am quite frankly astounded at the number of people killed or injured by Police drivers - these are people supposed to have had special training on how to drive in excess of the speed limits in a safe manner (and maybe goes to show that driving a Vectra at 159mph does not make you a good or responsivble driver after all). Something is clearly wrong with the driving "skills" or behaviour of our Police force when they get behind the wheel of a car. The situation must be addressed as a matter or urgency....but by whom?
Hang on, hang on! That's a bit of distortion of the facts there isnt it! Reading the original link, it states 31 deaths caused by police pursuit over a year. So, given approximately 3500 deaths on the UK roads per year, that's less than 1% of road fatalities caused isn't it? Or put another way, 99% of road deaths are not caused by police pursuits. Sounds a bit better put like that. Sensationalist reporting yet again I feel.
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I calculate the figure at 0.88 percent.
Given the proportionally small number of police cars on the road and the fact that only drivers qualified to a higher catagory standard are allowed to partake in pursuits, it's a high percentage.
Maybe it's something to do with Joe Public only daring to tootle along at 30, staring at their speedometer, that prevents them seeing or hearing lights and sirens in time?
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Traffic policing has been cut drastically since the advent of speed cameras, and we are starting to see the catastrophic results.
Fewer police having to travel longer distances but the same or shorter response time demanded.
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if you're deaf/blind/stupid, you'd be looking/hearing both ways
no you would not do not be stupid
and with circa 18 month waiting lists to get a hearing aid out of the nhs
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I fail to see the problem. You're deaf, have no hearing aid and want to cross a road. Surely you look?
Just a quick question - if you were getting murdered and dialled 999, would be want the police to drive with blues and twos on? Because what you're suggesting would inevitably result in these being taken off the Police cars like what's happened in Kent.
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Adam
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I hate being murdered whilst dialing 999 - one of my pet hates.
:-P Sorry, couldn't resist it!
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I thought as I pressed post if I should perhaps amend it. I decided again it.
D'oh! You could have an emergency 999 button though ;-)
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Adam
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As usual, just enough information released to cause sensational headlines and confusion(Labour government encourage it).
Did every accident result in a damaged police car? Did the vehicle they were persuing choose to crash instead of stopping, etc. More clarity would be nice.
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Here's part of the original post:
"There was a report on the radio this morning saying that there has been a big increase in the number of people involved in accidents with police cars. One would assume these would include a lot of police cars that are involved in pursuit actions."
Note the "One would assume". I wouldn't be surprised if very few accidents occured during pursuits. I also wonder how many accidents occured during routine driving i.e. without lights and sirens on.
I suspect that the problem (if there is one, which is not at all clear) lies with the ordinary copper, who uses a car as a means to get from one place to another, and who is not as highly skilled a driver as the traffic cops. There might be a need to increase training and restrict who can speed to a crime scene (and I seem to recall the police recently saying something along those lines). When a police car zooms by, I tend to watch how they drive, and usually it's obvious that they are skilled and careful, though minor accidents will inevitably occur. Only once did I think that the driving was questionable (high speed across a junction lights on red at night without slowing).
Given the number of police cars out there, and the number of miles travelled, it would be interesting to see what the average accidents per mile figure was.
Leif
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Some government spokesthingy trotted out the line about the rise being inevitable, the police having to take risks when they need to get there quickly.
Claptrap -- a crashed police car gets nowhere, and the call goes unanswered.
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Saw a situation today, car and motorbike accident, 2 ambulances were sorting out injuries. Member of public directing traffic. 1 mile away a police car driving on wrong side of road, well over speed limit, towards the accident. All cars had to take avoiding action. Police driver was on hand held phone. Does this set a good example??? Law abiding drivers are losing respect for police. The police are above the law.
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As a matter of interest a woman was recently shot whilst making a 999 call. They have it all on tape. The husband shot the son, the mother and then himself.
The police arrived 45 minutes later so no rush there but did not enter the premises for another 6 hours.
As I have said previously the police do pretty much nothing when they arrive at scenes of crimes these days so I would rather they got there slowly and avoided mowing people down on the way.
If there was some point in them arriving quickly then you can make some sort of moral equivalence arguement but as there isn't you can't.
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'BIG YAWN'..why let the facts get in the way of a good story. The gospel according to the Daily Mirror-it must be true.
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I am aware of the fact that MLC is a serving police officer and does not like it when I point out that all the police do these days when they arrive at a scene of potential violence is form a perimiter and wait until there is not the faintest chance of any danger to themselves and therefore their speedy arrival at that scene is irrelevant.
[snip] Not motoring. Mark
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[snip] Not motoring. Mark
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[snip] Not motoring. Mark
and as for police driving standards, well i think they must be just keep shortening the length of their driver training
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[snip] Not motoring. Mark
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[snip] Not motoring. Mark
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[snip] Not motoring. Mark
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There is a school of thought that the public gets the police it deserves!
Fullchat
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Have and voice your opinions, by all means. But;
1) Don't let it get personal, from either side
2) This is a motoring forum. Please bear that in mind when choosing your approach/subject.
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Sure it's a motoring forum, but let's not get too pedantic about it, Mark. The effectiveness, or otherwise, of policing is perhaps more closely bound up with motoring than with any other sphere of non-criminal activity. A poorly-performing force will have poorly-performing traffic patrols and indifferent traffic law enforcement, and we can avoid neither.
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There was a local case very recently in Stoke on Trent where a young (25) motorcyclist crashed and was killed when being chased by a police car (unsure whether he collided with it or he just crashed).
His father stated he thought his son was driving away from the police because his bike was not taxed and not insured and he was the subject of a 2 year ban for the same offence.
I think accidents with police cars and cahses are unavoidbale when you have drivers with mindsets like that: i.e. break the law continuously.
I don't blame the police: I think a few high profile cases where repeat offenders are given long jail sentences which are served might help. We would need more prisons of course.
If people continue to break the law and place their own and others lives at risks and ignore driving bans: then the only safe course imo is to ensure they are prevented in future from driving.
Prevention is easier etc...
madf
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I remember this case which happened only a couple of weeks ago, i believe that he crashed the scooter rather than them hitting him.
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Seeing as there are now about ten ambulances on the roads for every police car it's not surprising that the ambulance always arrives first and the police have to hurry there from miles away.
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