I've been asked to try to sort out a PC belonging to a relative of a colleague. It was constantly loading Notepad and a load of unexplained browser windows once booted. When I got my hands on it, I found that the antvirus software hadn't been updated since 2001 (!), and there was no firewall.
Although the PC had only ever been used for the odd bit of web surfing and e-mailing over a dial-up connection, I found it to be absolutely riddled with viruses, trojans and adware. AVG found 90+ viruses, and the usual anti-spyware tools (Microsoft, AdAware, and Spybot S&D) found a similar number of bits of malware, and I don't just mean tracking cookies.
The vast majority of these nasties were removed easily enough but a few stubborn ones remained. Although the programs claim to remove them, they always return after Windows is restarted. Even after spending many hours trying to get rid of them with a combination of software tools (I discovered very useful program called TDS-3), and manual editing of registry and start-up items in MSConfig, I haven't been able to eliminate the last one or two.
Given the damage that all this malware could have done, and the time I've already wasted, I'd like to format the drive and install Windows from scratch but there's a problem.
The PC was made by a well-known Lancashire company that used to be advertised by Leonard Nimoy. The owner doesn't have a Windows CD and the company doesn't supply such a thing with new PCs. A bit of research on the web reveals that they offer a restore CD for an outrageous £60. This doesn't contain Windows, but does give access to a hidden part of the hard drive which contains the necessary files to restore the PC to as new condition. Needless to say, the owner didn't pay the £60. As far as I can tell, the hidden partition really is hidden: I can't get access to it from Windows or mount it in Knoppix (CD-based Linux distribution). The manufacturer's own web site statest that the partition can't even be seen by the PC's BIOS.
Can anyone think of a work-round (preferably legit) for this problem? I have an XP CD of my own but it's an upgrade version which I'm pretty sure won't work with the licence key on the sticker on the PC. Does anyone happen to know if one OEM version of XP Home is the same as any other? If I could get hold of someone else's OEM copy, would it be likely to work with the licence key or are things not that simple?
Thanks in anticipation.
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I happily managed to re-install my system using an 'XP with SP2' CD, eliminating the need to install SP2 myself afterwards. So in my experience, yes, this should work.
::holds breath::
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I happily managed to re-install my system using an 'XP with SP2' CD, eliminating the need to install SP2 myself afterwards. So in my experience, yes, this should work.
Was this an OEM disk or one you created yourself (my research tells me that this can be done and it's prefereable to installing XP and then SP2)?
::holds breath::
Well.. I would be. My own XP CD will boot the PC and could easily be used to reformat the drive. I'm worried about not being able to reinstall after the (completely legitimate) licence key on the PC gets rejected.
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Was this an OEM disk or one you created yourself
This was with an genuine OEM disk of XP with SP2 I borrowed.
research tells me that this can be done and it's prefereable to installing XP and then SP2?
I imagine it's preferable as you don't get a whole load of files backed-up and wasting space, as an automatic 'restore point'. It would also have keep the disk defragmented.
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Web browsing and email? Why not ditch MS altogether and introduce the owner to GNU/Linux?
Kevin...
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Yes, I'd thought of that. I know that the PC is well suited to such treatment as I've been using Knoppix on it to download the software tools and do my web browsing to research the problems.
Sadly, I don't think the owner of the PC would be amenable to this.
My experience with this machine, and the efforts I go to to keep my own XP setup secure, are leading me to the conclusion that maintaining a Windows system safely involves no less effort than becoming a Linux guru. Windows is no longer the safe and hassle-free choice. My own PC also has Mandrake-Linux installed and using it is a pleasure by comparison. It also seems a lot faster because I don't need to keep antivirus and other security software running at all times.
Despite my reservations about the new 'cheap' Mac, I have a hunch that Apple will do quite well out of disillusioned Windows users who just want a hassle-free box to slot in in place of their existing PC.
And lest I be accused of departing from the purpose of the thread, I'll retire for the night now.
Thanks again.
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welliesorter -
i know you are quite well upto speed on these things, so excuse me if i am just repeating the obvious:
1. nasties - presume you have tried the latest versions of cwshredder and hijackthis. can you tell us which nasties you are unable to remove?
2. as the hard drive hidden partition may not be accessed during re-format or a new system install, why not get a brnd new hard disk?
3. in any case, installing xp-home using a reviously unused license should be ok. upgrade-cd will look for previous copy of a windows os on the hd.
4. a google search should reveal current situation regarding xp-sp2 product activation. for xp-sp1, the activation issues are well explained at
aumha.org/win5/a/wpa.htm
5. the legit method is likely to involve a new hd plus an unused original of xp.
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1. nasties - presume you have tried the latest versions of cwshredder and hijackthis. can you tell us which nasties you are unable to remove?
Yes. I spotted quite a few using hijackthis that nothing else had identified. You need to be fairly knowledgable to use the program but by that stage I'd become so familiar with what was and wasn't legitimate that it wasn't hard to spot the problem processes. I know I should have made a note of the names of the remaining offenders, but neglected to do so. The PC is currently disconnected and on the floor and dismantling my own to plug it in and find out isn't a trivial task. There are only one or two remaining nasties and TDS-3 and other anti-virus/trojan software does appear to get rid of them but they always come back. I have disabled the system restore function as I know this can cause malware not to be removed. I dare say it would be possible to remove the remaining items with a lot more effort and research but I feel it's time to cut my losses.
2. as the hard drive hidden partition may not be accessed during re-format or a new system install, why not get a brnd new hard disk?
In short it's not my PC and the owner wouldn't want to spend the money. Someone who allows a PC to get into this state isn't terribly computer literate and doesn't fully understand that there's nothing physically wrong with it. He'd rather spend the money on a replacement. At a guess, the PC is two to three years old so it should have some life in it yet. As far as I know, the only problem with using the existing HD is that a gigabyte or so of it is permanently inaccessible.
3. in any case, installing xp-home using a reviously unused license should be ok. upgrade-cd will look for previous copy of a windows os on the hd.
Unfortunately I don't have such a thing although there is a proper MS product key on a label on the PC. I'm hoping that it'll be possible to use this with another OEM copy.
4. a google search should reveal current situation regarding xp-sp2 product activation. for xp-sp1, the activation issues are well explained at aumha.org/win5/a/wpa.htm
Thanks, that's a useful link.
5. the legit method is likely to involve a new hd plus an unused original of xp.
Yes, but aside from the cost, I find the idea objectionable when a copy of Windows has already been paid for. I've no reason to suspect that the HD can't be formatted like any other, it's just that the firmware will prevent access to the hidden partiton, making it permanently wasted space. That's no worse than the position that any buyer of a PC from this particular manufacturer would be in.
Thanks for the pointers. To be honest, if the PC had been mine, I'd have reinstalled Windows in a fraction of the time I've spent so far.
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welliesorter -
i fully understand the situation re. helping pc-illiterate people. i have been there myself. recent example was a science graduate who had not installed any firewalls thinking that his anti-virus on its own was sufficient, until he got stung by a rogue-dialler.
as for your last para., ".>> I find the idea objectionable when a copy of Windows has already been paid for >> "
well, that is another debate altogether which i (as well as this forum, i suspect )could not afford the legal fees to fight.
any way - good luck.
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Just a quick (maybe pedantic but its not really) reminder.
You never own software. Its not yours ever. You pay for the right to use it. Its very difficult to return it as well if it dont work.
Software is probably unique in most things you "buy" in that your rights are severely limited. A matter that should be rectified
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You have a legitmate XP Key. You can use any copy of the software you wish, from any source you wish, but type in the legitimate product key.
It'll work and it is a legitimate approach.
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Welliesorter
You are thinking of a "slipstreamed" XP + SP2 installation.
Details at (anmong many others):
www.theeldergeek.com/slipstreamed_xpsp2_cd.htm
Re XP - Microsoft's intention is that it is installed on one system only (unless it is the Corporate licensed version).
More details on activation at:
www.microsoft.com/piracy/activation_how.mspx
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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You have a legitmate XP Key. You can use any copy of the software you wish, from any source you wish, but type in the legitimate product key. It'll work and it is a legitimate approach.
stand to be corrected, of course, but -
i thought welliesorter was asking if he could install xp-home (could be a copy from any disk from any source - does not matter) and then use a key that he has previously already used on another (his own) machine.
in which case, in my simple mind, i would think microsoft would not be wrong to dispute any claim that it was legitimate.
but then, i am not a cio and ianal - iamnotalawyer.
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i thought welliesorter was asking if he could install xp-home (could be a copy from any disk from any source - does not matter) and then use a key that he has previously already used on another (his own) machine.
One of us has misunderstood.
If, as you say, he will reuse his own key which is already in use then that would not be acceptable or legal.
If, as I thought, he was intending to use the product key already owned by the computer he is trying to fix (i.e. that is the *ONLY* place that key is used) then that would be legitimate wherever the software itself came from.
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One of us has misunderstood.
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it is me. mea culpa. i was wrong. must read more carefully.
i have re-read his comments and you are right.
" there is a proper MS product key on a label on the PC. I'm hoping that it'll be possible to use this with another OEM copy"
so he his perfectly entitled to re-install from any copy and use the original key as labelled on the friend's pc.
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I think he's using the lisence key on the side of the PC he's trying to fix. Otherwise, no, Microsoft will not like it, though the only thing they really do is stop downloadable updates, they'd never waste their breath going after an individual for copyright theft.
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validity of licenses - the answer was there in fact on the link i quoted in my first reply to welliesorter.
aumha.org/win5/a/wpa.htm
".... The license for a retail version of Windows XP is in perpetuity. You get to use Windows XP forever, if you choose.
But Microsoft recognises that machines do get upgraded. If, following the activation after setup, you do not need to contact the activation center for 120 days (any changes you make during this time being seen as acceptable when the system boots), then the sheet is swept clean and you can start again using the current hardware as the new baseline to make more changes.
If you get a new computer, you are entitled to remove Windows XP from the one that is being junked, and install the same Windows XP on the new machine ? but you will have to do the reactivation by a voice call and explain (unless, as was just mentioned, 120 days have passed since the activation was last performed).
Microsoft has said that if it ever becomes not worthwhile for them to keep this activation system going, they will take steps to allow users to disable it.
Restrictions of specific license types may limit the foregoing. OEM versions of Windows XP are licensed together with the hardware with which they are purchased, as an entity, and such a copy may not be moved to a different computer. Other specific license types (e.g., Academic licenses) are handled in different ways. This isn?t a WPA issue per se, but rather an issue of the license for that purchase, and therefore outside the scope of this discussion of WPA. ....
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You have a legitmate XP Key. You can use any copy of the software you wish, from any source you wish, but type in the legitimate product key. It'll work and it is a legitimate approach.
Thanks for that, and you (and the others) are correct in stating that the PC's owner has a legit copy of XP. The problem stems from the manufacturer's refusal to provide any form of back-up, except one that needs a recovery CD to access.
The CD contains no Windows files, it just unlocks the firmware of the customised hard drive. It isn't provided as standard but as a £60 optional extra. Needless to say, I won't be buying from this manufacturer myself.
If I've read Mark's comments correctly, I should just be able to install another copy of XP Home and it'll work with the licence key on the PC. Are individual copies of XP really as interchangeable as that? Presumably an XP Home licence won't work with XP Professional and a key from an OEM version won't work with a retail or upgrade version. Am I right, and are there any pitfalls that I haven't spotted.
Thanks again.
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Yes, all XP Home CDs of the same version are the same. You can use any one of them to install your PC, but the product code needs to be either unused or previously only used on the same machine (although it will cope with minor hardware changes e.g disk upgrade).
However you can't use an XP Home product key with an XP Professional disk.
I haven't read this in detail, but hidden partitions on discs are usually because they have been made as such, not because of any firmware setting. So nothing a quick FDISK won't clear. One exception I can think of is some older Quantum drives which were supplied in non-PC hardware - if you removed the drive and stuck it in a PC then it only recognised the first 9Gb. If it's one of those, there is a programme called QUNLOCK which cures it. And if it is not, but it is a firmware problem, then there is probably an equivalent programme to unlock it.
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