This evening at heathrow Terminal 1, one of our finest (of whom I have the highest regard) was giving out tickets. He was not wearing a hat, was he in uniform within the meaning of the act?
In addition, his yellow jacket was undone, it was not at all clear that it was a police uniform.
Does any of this make any difference to anything at all?
Don drbe
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drbe - the point is? Sorry for being a tad dense.
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No problem.
My question is quite straightforward - certain offences (I believe) require that you are stopped by a police officer in uniform - what constitutes a uniform?
Nothing clever intended, at what point does a police officer in uniform, stop being a police officer in uniform. If he/she removes his/her hat are they still in uniform? If they remove the jacket, are they still in uniform?..... and so on.
So, my question is, what constitutes a uniform? for the record, no sarcasm or irony is inteded.
Regards
Don drbe
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drbe - cheers!!
IMO, just like anyother organisation - some are more by the book than others.
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But did the word POLICE in large letters on the rear of his jacket & the smaller ones on the front, give bit of a clue??
VB
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You have to carry a warrant, but you don't have to go the whole "Evenin' all" to be a police officer. Otherwise, how would plain clothes manage????
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IIRC, a few months ago tickets issued by a "Parking Attendant" were ruled to be invalid as the issuer was not wearing a uniform hat at the time. To prove that, of course, you'd have to be there to see it going on!
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In the 'old days' whenever we were stopped by a police vehicle the first thing the alighting officer did was put his hat on - so as to be 'in uniform' and therefore be in a position to charge us or otherwise, i.e. verbal warning and license to be funny at our expense. You used to see this quite clearly on the road and on the various telly progs: Z Cars, The Sweeney etc.. On the other hand 'Mike' in BBC's 'Heartbeat' never, but never, buttons his coat up on his bike (improperly dressed) or has either his helmet or a flat 'at on when speaking to members of the public in his official capacity. So you could certainly question his authority on the spot, but would it help you in the long run? I doubt it, good luck though :-)
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Can't see a problem myself-can you imagine the scrotes at court-"m'lud, I know I was smashing the car window to nick the stereo, but the copper, he had no hat one when he nicked me".
Trouble is, the judge would let him off, give him £10k compensation for the stress and lock the copper up. Sorry, had a bad day.......
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There is a stated case on this very subject which came about in the early days of breathalysers when it was seen as sport to try and find some vague technicality to 'get off.'
I am sure DVD will be able to help on the specifics of this one but the definition of Police Officer 'in uniform' is someone who by the general appearance of their uniform is descernable as a Police Officer. Of course this is subjective and a matter of opinion (the magistrates)
So I am afraid the hat thing and unbuttoned jacket would not wash.
Fullchat
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i think you all should read this tinyurl.com/3yplc
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If I remember rightly its not just alchohol that cannot be sold. Its an offence for Licenced Premesis to allow officers in uniform to purchase any item.
Its the Licenced Premesis bit that causes the problems. An old archaic law which was enacted in the days when alchol consumption was much more sinister and Police were all drunks. - Not much changed there then!!!!!!
Seriously Liquor licencing has become far more relaxed but this quaint bit of legislation still stands. There are not many places you cant buy booze these days.
Mind you all Hackney Carriages should still carry a bale of straw in the boot!!
Fullchat
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If I remember rightly its not just alchohol that cannot be sold. Its an offence for Licenced Premesis to allow officers in uniform to purchase any item. Its the Licenced Premesis bit that causes the problems. An old archaic law which was enacted in the days when alchol consumption was much more sinister and Police were all drunks. - Not much changed there then!!!!!!
alchohol or alchol = alcohol
premesis = premises
have you had some incohol tonight drinkstable?
no offence intended. what on earth is a big chief constable doing buying alchohol in full uniform anyway (asking for trouble and attention i think) it's like firemen who can't seem to resist wearing a t shirt with there county crest on it when they are off duty.
aren't these people ever off duty?
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If I remember rightly its not just alchohol that cannot be sold. Its an offence for Licenced Premesis to allow officers in uniform to purchase any item. Its the Licenced Premesis bit that causes the problems.
You do indeed remember rightly, and it IS the Licencing Laws that prohibit the sale of "refreshments" to a Police officer on duty. However, sometimes it all gets taken a bit too far: news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/lincolnshire/3...m
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There's a subtle difference here between "On duty" and "In Uniform". If she was on her way home wearing her uniform was she still "On duty?"
In theory any time a Police Officer is excercising their powers they are deemed to be "On duty". Its not just an 8 hour a day thing!
Fullchat
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d'oh..... i cant spell alcohol either or is it alchohol
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There is plenty of caselaw covering uniform/not on/off-duty. A constable from the date of appointment is so and carries the full duties and powers whether on or off duty. There was some inadeuqate bleating about not wearing headgear or not when some case was brought to book. It is a distraction. Some odd bits of law require wearing uniform when performing certain duties or executing certain powers, such as requesting documents but any court is unlikely to dismiss if the said constable was not wearing a hat or forgot to button up his/hertunic/jacket/fleece/anorak etc etc. Up until recently an Officer was required to be in uniform when they arrested a disqualified driver which was a stupid oudated bit of law. I was in a nick today, there were a number of Officers there, some wearing cargo pants and tee shirts, some in shrts and ties others in pullovers, another in a fleece jacket and others in combinations of same. Anyone who offends and then has to resort to trying to get off due to the apparel of the Officer who booked him deserves all he gets. I agree about the ACPO rank who went shopping for wine and applaud Tesco for bringing her down to earth.
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Last year there was considerable debate about whether a ticket issued by a PA who was not wearing a hat was valid. A Brighton newspaper’s photographer attracted a lot of media coverage when he threatened to take the matter to appeal. However, the appeal was not pursued because his witness did not come forward.
An article investigating the subject appeared in the September issue of Parking Review. Not all councils thought that the wearing of hats was essential. However, the Department for Transport’s guidance says that ‘when carrying out prescribed functions, and issuing tickets is one such, [parking attendants] are subject to the Parking Attendants (Wearing of Uniforms) (London) regulations 1993’
A spokesman for the National Parking Adjudication Service confirmed that parking attendants should wear hats during enforcement activity adding: “an attendant not wearing headgear would not in itself be grounds for appeal but could be considered as part of an appeal. The adjudicator would have to give it the importance he thought was relevant to the case.”
The reality of the situation is that only a tiny proportion of those ticketed ever see the PA responsible. For those that do how many carry a camera or could find a witness to corroborate the evidence? Even then an adjudicator could take the view that it is not relevant to the case!
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As a mere colonial and sorry to appear so but is there really a publication called Parking Review. What on earth kind of people read it?
If there is it really deserves a place in the Growler "Get A Life" chronicles LOL....
Thanks for the best laugh I've had today....
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Apparently you can get Parking Review from most public libraries, but beware the fines if you keep it too long... :-)
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In case anyone's feeling particularly in need of new reading
www.landor.co.uk/parkingreview/
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As an aside to this thread - is the British Police uniform the scruffiest in the E.U.?
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No. but it's probably the most impracticle. The helmet should have been scrapped years ago. We've just got our (useful) fleeces and our very uncomfortable body armour. Very rarely wear my (flat) hat. Again, uncomfortable and impracticle. You try keeping one on when you bend down to talk to someone in a car.
I've never had a problem with this. I've probably perfected the 'scowl', gives people advanced warning if they're getting on my bad side.
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Adding to what Full Chat and PU have stated, this uniform thingy seems to constantly raise its head with drink/driving as a Police Office in UNIFORM is only allowed to ask for a roadside Breath test.
In their wisdom PTB do not define uniform.
My references state that whether a constable (includes any rank) was in uniform at the time is a matter of fact for a Court to decide in each case. What counts as uniform is unclear, but if the constable can be identified from his/her manner of dress as a police officer, the requirement has probably been met. (Wallwork v Giles 1970), Officer without helmet on held to be in uniform.
Have empathy re the remarks about appearance. My day a standard uniform worn only by Police, now a rat bag of like wearers not even on the fringe of Police (Security Guards). Mind you we didn't need a trailer to carry all the extras required today.
Whistle, truncheon, handcuffs and Pocket Book. Ahhh MLC the good old days.
DVD
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Whilst not forgetting that a Police Officer whether in uniform or not can nick a person in charge of a motor vehicle, whom he suspects of being drunk or under the influence of drugs.
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Nick em Pu, Nick em?
Surely a Section 18 wounding against Police Office???
DVD
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I recall meeting my cousin in Glasgow - in full correct uniform, shoes shined, trousers pressed and immaculate.....I told him that we had heard he had been promoted to plain clothes duties...he said that he had, but was on his day off.
Is this the oldest one in the book?
Matt35.
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& according to our local Sunday paper, we now have 2 males, wearing dayglo jackets, in a silver Audi displaying a removable blue flashing light, stopping you & checking your details.
When you get out of the Audi, they drive off with your car, too!!
Double check who's pulling you over, if you're Beds/Herts area!!
VB
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Sorry DVD, comes from spending most of yesterday in a Police Station talking about Anti Social Behaviour Orders and S59 Police Reform Act offences (AS use of cars) picked up some of the terminology !
Contrary to the stereotypes perpetrated on this site now and again there are some very good Police bosses around. This was a very much a "can do" day from the local constabulary. Made me think yesterday since most forces have been BCU'd now they have Area Inspectors who are basically Chief Constables in their own areas, dare I say that some of the managment issues lie here. All the Area Inspectors for this particular Division where in this meeting, they seemed, some of them at least, to be stuck in their rank - I have known a lot of them for many years. The more go getting ones have leapfrogged ahead, the Divisional Commander is a 41 year old graduate with 20 years service.
Not much to do with motoring directly but this could be the root cause of the trouble that BRs experience with the Police.
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Are constables and sergeants "officers"?
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As the person who initiated this thread, I would like to point out that there was no hidden agenda in my original post. I had not been threatened with being reported or prosecution or anything else.
I had seen what was obviously a police officer on duty, but wasn't in "full" uniform and I was curious as to what constituted being in uniform.
I think I/we now have the answer - that there is no definition of "in uniform".
Nuff said
Don drbe
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Didn't the Met. use to have a blue and white band, on their left cuff, to indicate that they were on duty, which they took off when they signed off?
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