>>My bro-in-law, an ex Class 1 police driver and all-round good
>>guy had an incident on the M1 last year when a large metal
>>casting fell off a truck into the path of his VW Bora. His
>>expert choice was to swerve between the obstacle and the 3rd
>>lane Armco. He tells me that the ESP light came on as his
>>alloys grazed the side of the obstacle and he is sure that the
>>ESP saved him and his car although the left hand wheels are
>>badly marked up to hub height. There\'s an example of a driver
>>who was trained to drive without the gizmos (Rover P6 3500)
>>yet was grateful for them in one incident.
>>Darcy.
Darcy - I\'m very glad to hear that your brother-in-law escaped what could have been a very nasty accident, and have no doubt that, on this occasion, his ESP (I\'m trying frantically to think what that stands for...Electronic Stability Programme? As DD will confirm I\'m hopeless with abbreviations) saved him. But I think that you should remember that he is a trained Class 1 police driver. This probably helped him as much as the ESP. I doubt that Mr or Mrs Average would have had the prescence of mind to avoid the obstacle.
I\'m not advocating banning every single piece of technology and heading back to the \'golden age\' of motoring (whenever that was!). I am, however, concerned that too much electronic interference from the car removes a lot of the input and, to some minds, the responsibility from the driver. I can imagine the excuse now: \"It wasn\'t my fault, officer. The car forgot to correct my mistake.\"
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>>ESP (I\'m trying frantically tothink what that stands for...Electronic Stability Programme?
I've only ever heard ESP used as an abbreviation of 'Extra Sensory Perception'. And maybe that would be more useful than many of these driving aids that have been mentioned?!
HF
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HF, I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought about ESP like that!
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Been driving for more than 40 yrs and only my present car has all the gizmos. Frankly, I am only aware I've got them when, on the odd occasions they kick in which, up to now, have not been in any sort of emergency but in obscure situations such as braking to a standstill at low speed on the muddy verge of a narrow country lane to give another vehicle right of way, when my car (Vectra Estate) applies ABS and drawing away afterwards when Traction Control sometimes manifests itself momentarily if I am being a bit enthusiastic in applying the gas.
I place no conscious reliance on any of the safety devices in my car, having driven for so many years without their benefit that defensive driving has become an engrained habit. Besides, I drive other cars, my wife's for one, which don't have the full benefit of all the technological aids, so coming to rely on the car to get me out of trouble would be foolish.
My opinion is, yes, let's have all the technology available to get us out of real trouble, but don't let the fact that's it's available tempt you into overstretching your own capabilities.
Yes, I know I sound like a silly old f..t, but think about it!
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Yes, I know I sound like a silly old f..t, but think about it!
No, I wouldn't say you sound like that Ken. I'd say your post just confirms what others have been saying earlier. By all means benefit from these 'aids', but don't ever rely on them totally.
HF
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Rob
I think I know what you mean; I'm just saying that it's too late to start outlawing gizmos because we are all educated to use them. If we lose the skills to drive a "proper" car, that's called evolution, a bit like not knowing how to light a coal fire without firelighters.
As for the Golden Age - it's NOW. These are the good old days. Never before have we had cars of such reliability, design competence and relative low cost combined with such freedom to use them.
Darcy.
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My bro-in-law, an ex Class 1 police driver...
...his VW Bora
Darcy -> Brief off-topic question: Your brother isn't an IAM examiner is he ? I did my IAM test last year with a Class 1 driver, who turned up in a blue Bora...and I'm in the vicinity of the M1 (slightly north of Derby way)
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I tend to see these aids as a good thing. However they seem to be applied indiscrimantly.
A front-wheel-drive car with less than about 140-150 bhp doesn't need traction control. On the other hand it can be useful on a rear drive car: traction control once rescued me in a nasty diesel spill moment.
Of course aids can produce over-confidence, but I suspect that, in many cases, the over-confidence would be there anyway.
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I can't really go for the removal of safety devices, better education such as has caused drink driving to be seen as socially unacceptable. The removal of safety devices I would see as being akin to removing RCDs from electrical installations and perhaps unbonding all the metal fittings in a building. Still I guess it would thin out the careless amongst us!
Steve.
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A year last December, two or three weeks after I'd acquired the Vectra, I had to do a 20 mile round trip on roads which had a layer of ice under falling snow. Everything was crawling, needless to say and I was following 3 or 4 cars, one of which was a Disco. The route included a couple of main road hills, the sort you don't even register as much more than inclines in normal conditions but which, that day, were obviously going to have to be tackled with great care. Taking them at a steady pace and keeping as far back from the other vehicles as I could without losing momentum, I surprised myself by making the ascent without any undue drama and with the car in a straight line all the way. None of the others managed it without a slide or two, not even the Disco! However, my uneventful ascent wasn't down to any superior driving skill on my part but to the traction control fitted as standard on the CDX. Sorry Peter, but on the strength of this incident alone, I can't agree that "a front wheel drive car with less than 140-150bhp doesn't need traction control." In the sort of conditions I met that day, I'd say any car would benefit.
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Muddyboots
Different chap, his Bora is silver and he lives in West Yorkshire.
Darcy.
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I'm not advocating that they all be banned, (despite the thread title - you try thinking of a succinct title for this!). But I am suggesting that too many of them will result in cars driving people, not people driving cars.
I take the point from our more experienced BRers, but I am concerned that someone who has only just passed his test can immdediately jump into his dad's BMW with all these gizmos and drive around for a year until he can afford his own car. By this time, he has become so imbued with driving with these 'aids' that he forgets how to drive a 'normal' car and comes a cropper when he takes his souped-up Nova (with apologies to YoungSensibleDriver!) out for the first time.
Personally, I think that the answer is more comprehensive driver training with maybe a compulsory minimum amount of lessons.
I don't think that this is an issue that can ever be resolved and, realistically, I do believe that these 'aids' are here to stay.
BTW Darcy, I'm 29 and perfectly capable of lighting a coal fire! ;-)
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Perhaps we should buy up all the late 80s Novas, Fiestas, etc., with 4 speed boxes, no safety features and no PAS. In fact, Polos, because they have no brake servo either...
And then we start a driving school for people who like a challenge.
(I'm 24 and most of my friends' first cars had 4 speed boxes, by the way, and power steering was an unimaginable luxury. Now even most small cars under 5 years old (£2500 worth) have PAS and a 4 speed box really makes you show your age.)
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LOL David! :-)
>>a 4 speed box really makes you show your age.
You're not kidding! Reminds me of my Dad (bless 'im). For years he was a sales rep so was provided with bog standard Cortinas/Cavaliers with 4-speed boxes. He unfortunately got made redundant and used some of his money to buy a Nissan Sunny with a 5-speed box. My life, did this confuse him! I used to have to remind him that it had an extra cog on the dual carriageway with the engine screaming away! The indicators on the right and wipers on the left didn't help either...!
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4-speed - you were lucky. When I were a lad you had to make do with 3 speeds.
My old E reg Vauxhall Victor had 3 speed column change and a bench front seat, poor for driver location on bends but useful for courting.
Darcy.
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Phew, I thought I was old as my first car had a 4-speed box and no PAS - and that was only 2 years ago!
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You can relax, slefLX! My first car over ten years ago was likewise. Not sure whether it's rose-tinted glasses, but it was the best car I've ever had! Opel Kadett 1.3 S 'X' reg. Ah, the memories!
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"4-speed - you were lucky. When I were a lad you had to make do with 3 speeds."
Desperately trying to avoid professional Yorkshireman mode but....
Darcy I do wonder how many of todays whipper snappers would manage climbing Hard Knott/Wrynose passes in a Mk2 Consul, 3 speed column change with non syncro first.
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I think every time one of the many "Safety Gizmo's" kicks in the time, date and which gizmo should be recorded on the onboard computer. When the owner comes to sell, the incident history could be printed out which would give the prospective purchaser some clue as to the previous owners driving style.
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FiF - I know that I'd struggle.
Mind you, when I first applied for a bus driving job, I'd only ever driven a car or Transit before. Part of the interview was an assessment drive that I presumed would be undertaken in the depot van. Wrong! It was in the bus they used for instruction. It was a Leyland Leopard with no power steering and a crash gearbox. As Jasper Carrott once said: "Smell it? I was sitting in it!"
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FIF
Due to a navigational error after being on nights, Madame directed us out of Holmfirth past the Holme Moss transmitter. We were in an aged asthmatic Citroen D Special with a heavyweight Swift caravan on tow. That was one column change into non-synchro first I'm glad I didn't botch.
Sorry about the "when I were a lad ..." bit
My dad had Mk 1 and Mk 2 Zephyr dropheads from new and he fitted overdrive to the Mk 2.
Darcy.
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