My principles - buy the car that suits my needs best, while under manufacturers warranty, keep extending the factory warranty as long as possible and then move on.
Ditto!
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I must say that I had a Peugeot406 diesel from 1998-2001 and put 130K miles on it. Lovely car. New steering rack and drivers seat under warranty.
I had a Renault Laguna tourer diesel 6 speed form 2001-2004. Lovely car. Great engine. Only problems were electrics, and a rear wiper failure. Only put 95K on that one.
They were company cars though, just before I came out of the company scheme and provided my own car. Then I went Toyota and Skoda. two great cars, very few issues with them. On reflection maybe I should consider French again when I decide to change. Japanese are fine but again not sure about their diesels. What does Mazda do to upset diesel fans so much?
Cheers Concrete
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Buy a Vauxhall Zafira, see a history of fires and the maker does nothing about recall for years.
Or buy form makers who try - on teh whole - with odd exceptions - to be mindful of their duties to H&S..
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Buy a Vauxhall Zafira, see a history of fires and the maker does nothing about recall for years.
The sad thing is, some of those owners will still be loyal to Vauxhall even after this.
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Buy a Vauxhall Zafira, see a history of fires and the maker does nothing about recall for years.
The sad thing is, some of those owners will still be loyal to Vauxhall even after this.
The other (sad) bit about it is that it was a poor design (Nothing new for GM) , able to be bodged, and would actually not have arisen if people did check/change their pollen filters annually.
I seem to remember Rover 800 owners btpassinf the heater fan switch too.
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The other (sad) bit about it is that it was a poor design (Nothing new for GM) , able to be bodged, and would actually not have arisen if people did check/change their pollen filters annually.
It might help if Vauxhall dealers did actually fit the new pollen filters they charge customers for when they do servicing!
Your not wrong about poor GM design, Over the years we have had several vauxhalls and while they were not perfect, the Astra G has got to be the worst for poor design. Faulty ignition switch has burned out the starter motor. ECU failed because of the ridiculous idea of bolting it on the end of the cylinder head (obviously GM's electronics engineers did not understand the effects of thermal cycling on semiconductors). Heater blower motor failed. All well known faults with this model now. Oh and I almost forget the automatic self adjust rear brakes that despite being striped, cleaned and rebuilt several times still only work sporadically.
It will be the last Vauxhall for me.
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The other (sad) bit about it is that it was a poor design (Nothing new for GM) , able to be bodged, and would actually not have arisen if people did check/change their pollen filters annually.
It might help if Vauxhall dealers did actually fit the new pollen filters they charge customers for when they do servicing!
Your not wrong about poor GM design, Over the years we have had several vauxhalls and while they were not perfect, the Astra G has got to be the worst for poor design. Faulty ignition switch has burned out the starter motor. ECU failed because of the ridiculous idea of bolting it on the end of the cylinder head (obviously GM's electronics engineers did not understand the effects of thermal cycling on semiconductors). Heater blower motor failed. All well known faults with this model now. Oh and I almost forget the automatic self adjust rear brakes that despite being striped, cleaned and rebuilt several times still only work sporadically.
It will be the last Vauxhall for me.
That's the problem with samples of one, there isn't a single brand that hasn't given someone a nightmare.
Each of my Vauxhalls were good ones over 20+ years, including an Astra-G which did 100,000 miles in 7 years, running sweeter at the end than when new, used no oil and was only sold because I wanted a 4wd.
The ECU's bolted to the engine caused fatigue in the soldered terminals and several outfits would recondition them just by resoldering each of the terminals.
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That's the problem with samples of one, there isn't a single brand that hasn't given someone a nightmare.
Each of my Vauxhalls were good ones over 20+ years, including an Astra-G which did 100,000 miles in 7 years, running sweeter at the end than when new, used no oil and was only sold because I wanted a 4wd
Exactly, very succinctly put, the problem with Zaffiras was inexcusable and there are questions that G.M. need to respond to but some of the d***** posted about Vauxhalls in general has been absolute nonsence. The lack of Vauxhall problems in relation to those of the the so called reliable marques posted on the technical side of this forum and anywhere else come to that, shows that they are better in this respect. It seems to be very much a case of the ignorant blind trying to lead the gullible blind. I have enjoyed thousands and thousands of miles of comfortable, reliable and cheap motoring over many years in them.
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The thing is Wolfan, this forum is not the most used on the internet for technical problems. So to coin RT's phrase "this forum's technical discussion is just a sample of one". Couple that to the fact there are many people who just don't post on the internet about their problems with cars and you'll see that HJ's technical discussion is not a very good indication of the reliability of any car.
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The same could be said (in my opinion) for the company the OP is referring to - the people who use said aftermarket warranty service are themselves a select bunch, meaning that there's bias already in the figures. Unless the survey reflects the mix of actual car owners across the board (which it can't, because the warranty only kicks in at least after the manufacturer's one has ended, including any 1 year one from a dealer when selling it second hand), then they cannot be wholy relied upon to be representative in my view.
It also does not include (as far as I know) for parts replaced by the manufacturer outside the remit of the after-market warranty, i.e. during the normal warranty under a recall, or, in the case of safety-related items, afterwards. Having a brand new part fitted after 3-5 years or even longer would surely skew the 'reliability' figures, given the parts are much newer than other makes' cars, where the part just wears out through wear and tear after 5-6 years (e.g. suspension parts on my car) and not through an inherrant fault. Personally, I think that's why UK and some continental European makes that are more generally less known for reliabilty 'do well' comapred to Far Eastern ones.
In another example, Mazda's RX-8 is considered by this 'survey' to be quite poor in terms of reliability, however it IS a sports car, so could be abused by both current and previous owners, and, as I have witnessed on a few occasions (when getting my Mazda3 serviced at my local dealership), RX-8 owners moaning about requiring expensive repairs on their car, only for them to admit to the dealer that they often/mostly use the car for short trips to the shops, something which is widely known to be a no-no for that car (and is, I think, told by Mazda to customers not to do) because it leads to serious (rotary) engine and CAT damage.
The other thing is that the scoring also reflects the actual cost of parts, which to me is fine when comparing two similar cars, but worthless when comparing the 'reliability' of a small family car and a sports coupe, given the later will be far more expensive, including many non-common parts.
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The thing is Wolfan, this forum is not the most used on the internet for technical problems. So to coin RT's phrase "this forum's technical discussion is just a sample of one". Couple that to the fact there are many people who just don't post on the internet about their problems with cars and you'll see that HJ's technical discussion is not a very good indication of the reliability of any car.
Ah so that's the explanation is it? I understand perfectly now. Goodness me I can't believe how lucky I've been over the years.
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The ECU's bolted to the engine caused fatigue in the soldered terminals and several outfits would recondition them just by resoldering each of the terminals.
I know what your saying RT and that was the case with some engines fitted to some Vauxhalls.
The ECU on my particular model of Astra were not repairable at the time mine failed, I tried all the ECU repair companies and they all said the only option was to replace it.
If it had been a simple solder job I could have easily fixed it myself being an electronics hobbyist for most of my life (and having qualified as an electronics engineer) but, when I opened it up it was all SMD and potted in a sticky gel. That's not for me, I only do thru hole stuff.
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If it had been a simple solder job I could have easily fixed it myself being an electronics hobbyist for most of my life (and having qualified as an electronics engineer) but, when I opened it up it was all SMD and potted in a sticky gel. That's not for me, I only do thru hole stuff.
I'm not surprised that you couldn't fix it yourself. Interestingly Car Mechanics magazine has just written an article about ECU testing and repair, focusing on a company that specialises in this.
They use a lot of techniques and equipment that would be impossible to carry out in your average garage. The pins are tiny so hand soldering is impossible.
Out of their top ten ECU failures, Vauxhall appear three times.
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Years ago, one of the first rules I was told about customer service was that one satisfied customer will tell a few people whilst a disgruntled customer will tell the world.
A lesson sadly lost these days, and not just by car manufacturers.
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Does anyone have a link for this report please.
I'm particularly interested in knowing if statistics making up the report are for agreed fixes by the warranty provider and/or exclude rejected claims.
Also does the report give proportion of claims approved/rejected in given cost bandings?
Would the claims figures (successful or rejected) on an aftermarket warranty on an 8 year old Kia compared a 4 year old anything else be a fair comparison anway.
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Does anyone have a link for this report please.
I'm particularly interested in knowing if statistics making up the report are for agreed fixes by the warranty provider and/or exclude rejected claims.
Also does the report give proportion of claims approved/rejected in given cost bandings?
Would the claims figures (successful or rejected) on an aftermarket warranty on an 8 year old Kia compared a 4 year old anything else be a fair comparison anway.
Your last (very well reasoned) point was essentially what I was thinking too: has the report/website taken into account the age of the cars, how long outside of the manufacturers' warranty they are, the condition of the cars at the time and the profile of the owners (my point, see above), which is likely to be significantly different to that of the average of all owners across the board. Its a bit like only referring to a certain age group or income band on an opinion poll/survey - it will inevitably skew the results.
In my view, people tend to take out after-market warranties because they thing they are likely to claim, which either means:
- They don't look after their cars as much as others (both servicing/wear and tear replacements and driving style);
- The car they are looking to cover is either considered to be less reliable generally or has had specific problems in the past which may crop up again or at least makes the owner believe it is unreliable (even if it is liked for handling & performance, comfort, gadgets etc);
Again, skewing the results. Given not everyone takes out after-market cover, I just don't see how any such firm providing such a service can claim to provide OVERALL RELIABILITY figures for cars in general.
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My local indpendent has been servicing and repairing all makes for forty years. I imagine many people with similar experience will tell you the makes they would recommend and those which they would avoid, based upon the frequency of faults they come across and the ease (or difficulty) of working on them.
In general, he favours Far Eastern makes, not just for reliabilty but for sensible accessibility.
Some makes and models are unnecessarily hard to repair as they have been designed for speed and cheapness of assembly, not for ease of repair.
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I would say that a good guide to both reliability and longevity is this:
How many 20 or 30+ year-old cars (that aren't obviously restoration jobs of top-spec models) of each make are on the road and in perfectly ok running order?
Given how many Fords, Vauxhalls and other major European make cars were sold in the UK in the 80s and 90s, you don't see that many (even the [probably more cherished] top spec models) on the roads, and yet its amazing how many Japanese cars built in that era are still kicking around. It may cost a bit more to have new (wear and tear) parts fitted, but they seem to last longer than Euro-equivalents, not necessarily just because they are more highly engineered parts, but as you say, how they fit into the car is more logical (hence why they are easier to fit). I suppose the higher repair costs are done so that the money can be spent on decent engineering of the next generation of cars and components, rather than going on marketing to give the impression of quality as some appear to do.
I believe that the Far Eastern (especially Japanese) car manufacturers, more than Euro makes, bother to properly (thoroughly) test components (especially with other combinations in vehicles, not just on a test-bed) and are cautious about adding too many new features/gadgets to a car at the same time, so that they bed in before new features are added.
The Euro makes, in my view tend to want to be 'first to market' with some new feature/gadget and scrimp on the testing phase before it goes to market, leaving the car owner as the defacto beta tester. This, in my opinion, is why so many 'luxury'/top end brands come out so low in general reliability surveys.
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From my time as a humble kerbside cowboy in the 70's and 80's and increasingly from what i've seen heard and had to work on in more recent years i agree wholly with your indy Galileo and its getting worse.
The Subaru and Landcruiser we have are from that golden era of 90's design, and each of them is a pleaure to work on for the most part...we'll sketch over spark plug replacement on the Scooby mind..:-)
One of the worse jobs of recent years was on my sons 51 plate Seat Toledo, the radiator started leaking as did the heater matrix, i have no doubt poor previous servicing was at least partly responsible.
Radiator required the front of the car to be taken off, heater matrix required the whole of the dashboard out, which meant the front seats and centre console too, only to find we had to take half the bulkhead apart engine side because fitments from the front and i suspect the heater rad was the very first part fitted to the bare shell, never again nor will he.
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Judging 20-30 year old cars only tells you how good those brands were 20-30 years ago, not how good they are now.
Brands move up/down the relative heirachy so "past performance is no guide to the future"
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Only to a degree - good brands don't go bad overnight, and vice-versa. Given that the likes of Ford Vauxhall and other EU makes sell 5-10x as many cars in the UK as many well-known Japanese brands, why is it that even cars from such makes from the 1990s and newer are far more prevalent on our roads than the EU ones after 10 years+, taking into account the large disparity in previous sales figures? Because the European don't last as long, despite many being roughly the same price as their Japanese counterparts.
Most large corporations, motor firms included, rarely make huge sweeping changes overnight that have a dramatic impact on the way they make their products and to what standard - yes, fortunes go up and down, but not by that much in terms of their relative engineering quality over a few years. More often than not, it is a gradual process.
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Only to a degree - good brands don't go bad overnight, and vice-versa. Given that the likes of Ford Vauxhall and other EU makes sell 5-10x as many cars in the UK as many well-known Japanese brands, why is it that even cars from such makes from the 1990s and newer are far more prevalent on our roads than the EU ones after 10 years+, taking into account the large disparity in previous sales figures? Because the European don't last as long, despite many being roughly the same price as their Japanese counterparts.
Most large corporations, motor firms included, rarely make huge sweeping changes overnight that have a dramatic impact on the way they make their products and to what standard - yes, fortunes go up and down, but not by that much in terms of their relative engineering quality over a few years. More often than not, it is a gradual process.
Not overnight - but in 20-30 years they can/do - Skoda and Hyundai/Kia are quite different now - several "quality" brands no longer exist!
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The only 4 good Vauxhall vehicles I have owned are E reg senator, F reg cavalier , 09 plate combo van and 11 plate vivaro van.
It's s real shame Vaixhall stopped making their own small sized van. As much as the re-badged Doblo is an ok van, the combo was brilliant both in terms of economy and reliability.
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The only 4 good Vauxhall vehicles I have owned are E reg senator, F reg cavalier , 09 plate combo van and 11 plate vivaro van. It's s real shame Vaixhall stopped making their own small sized van. As much as the re-badged Doblo is an ok van, the combo was brilliant both in terms of economy and reliability.
GM Detroit's usual lack of forward vision - the Bedford CF was a well-respected alternative to the Transit but GM decided to bail-out rather than compete and has mad many questionable decisions since, including half-hearted alliances with Isuzu and Fiat.
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GM Detroit's usual lack of forward vision - the Bedford CF was a well-respected alternative to the Transit but GM decided to bail-out rather than compete and has mad many questionable decisions since, including half-hearted alliances with Isuzu and Fiat.
They had enough vision to make an Electric version of the CF which was also sold in small numbers in the USA under the Griffon badge. IIRC prince Charles or his father had (might still have) one.
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GM Detroit's usual lack of forward vision - the Bedford CF was a well-respected alternative to the Transit but GM decided to bail-out rather than compete and has mad many questionable decisions since, including half-hearted alliances with Isuzu and Fiat.
They had enough vision to make an Electric version of the CF which was also sold in small numbers in the USA under the Griffon badge. IIRC prince Charles or his father had (might still have) one.
Bedford may have had enough forward vision - but why didn't GM Detroit develop any replacement for the CF? What is now Opel/Vauxhall is still too hampered by GM Detroit.
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The only 4 good Vauxhall vehicles I have owned are E reg senator, F reg cavalier , 09 plate combo van and 11 plate vivaro van. It's s real shame Vaixhall stopped making their own small sized van. As much as the re-badged Doblo is an ok van, the combo was brilliant both in terms of economy and reliability.
The Vivaro is a Renault Traffic that has been rebadge so that's 3 Vauxhalls. Your right though, Vauxhalls of the 80s/90's were fairly reliable albeit the build/design quality was a bit rough. I still remember the huge gaps around the cavalier mk2 headlamps.
Your right about the Combo, there is a big market for vans of this size.
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Your right about the Combo, there is a big market for vans of this size.
And going to be a nightmare for many users, but both dealers and makers too, trying to keep the emissions fitments happy and the vehicle running.
I wonder if we might see a resurgence of this size petrol engined vans converted to LPG when the reality of modern Diesel vans becomes common knowledge.
I used to deliver lots of mk 1 Berlingos directly to LPG converters, but LPG seems to have dwindled in the last 10 years, which i find a bit surprising.
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I've owned a lot of cars from many manufacturers and I've generally found the dealers have been more of an issue than the cars themselves.
I've had good experiences with vauxhall, very poor from toyota, abysmal from VW, decent from Ford, borderline dangerous with Jaguar, decent from Honda and so on.
One thing I've noticed is my experiences don't fit with the 'love in' of jap car companies. Thats probably down to the dealers I've had to use.
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I agree Snakey, a good dealer with an average product can still engender some confidence in the brand. BMW sells well but most I speak to say the dealers are awful, arrogant people. The 'love in' with Japanese brands is really about the fact you very rarely have to see the dealer, because they don't go wrong very often. My friend ran a Volvo dealership, the site changed franchise to Nissan. Within 6 months he sold one of his tow trucks. The reason: less breakdowns with Nissan vehicles! Shame but true fact of life.
Just goes to show though, a little bit of good old fashioned customer service goes a long, long way.
Cheers Concrete
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Your right about the Combo, there is a big market for vans of this size.
And going to be a nightmare for many users, but both dealers and makers too, trying to keep the emissions fitments happy and the vehicle running.
I wonder if we might see a resurgence of this size petrol engined vans converted to LPG when the reality of modern Diesel vans becomes common knowledge.
I used to deliver lots of mk 1 Berlingos directly to LPG converters, but LPG seems to have dwindled in the last 10 years, which i find a bit surprising.
I remember my dad had a Viva van running on LPG in the mid 70's, Very basic system with what looked like a gas ring in the air filter housing, A big gas tank behind the seats and a manual petrol/gas tap on the dash board infront of the passenger seat.
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I remember my dad had a Viva van running on LPG in the mid 70's, Very basic system with what looked like a gas ring in the air filter housing, A big gas tank behind the seats and a manual petrol/gas tap on the dash board infront of the passenger seat.
Thankfully things have moved on, those Heath Robinson air intake gas inlets would see the inlet blow to pieces in the event of a backfire.
Now the switchover is barely noticeable as is the chnage in performance, and the joys of 50ppl fuel, which is now well below half petrol price make up for any shortcomings.
I bet Dad's gas tank was a Calor bottle usually found bolted to the back of a fork lift...well done your Dad, a true trail blazer of the old school.
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I wonder if we might see a resurgence of this size petrol engined vans converted to LPG when the reality of modern Diesel vans becomes common knowledge.
I used to deliver lots of mk 1 Berlingos directly to LPG converters, but LPG seems to have dwindled in the last 10 years, which i find a bit surprising.
We used to have a few council vans running on LPG, but as soon as they hit a running issue, they couldn't be bothered to find and fix the problem, so they ran on petrol from then on.
The idea was sound, but you need companies who will go that extra mile to keep the vehicles in tip top condition, which is sadly not true of my council!
You wouldn't want to see a resurgence of LPG would you GB, best to keep it a niche product and prices low.
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Snakey wrote "I've owned a lot of cars from many manufacturers and I've generally found the dealers have been more of an issue than the cars themselves."
That's pretty much my experience too and the issues can increase or decrease from year to year according to who is working on the cars and who is in charge. I'd have to wait 2 or 3 years before I could recommend a dealer in the Good Garage list. I've learnt to trust my instincts. You can learn a lot just by watching the fitters in the yard, how you're greeted in reception and the expression on people's faces when you ask a tricky question.
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I've probably gone the opposite way to accepted wisdom, in that I've swapped a honda civic for a (albeit newer) Vauxhall astra.
The main factor in this decision was a) the Astra offered more for my money and b) the civic had rust on it that honda didn't wouldn't do anything about which disappointed me on a 3 year old car!
When it comes down to reliability, it can be down to a lot of good/bad luck as well. I see loads of old Corsas and Zafiras around here and also a lot of older Peugeots - going by most motoring journo's opinions these should be dust by now.
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High volume sellers always last - even the ones needing regular repair are familiar to every workshop, often with pattern parts available, so not necessarily expensive to keep on the road, certainly less than the depreciation hit of changing for a younger car.
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