Peugeot 307 SW HDI - losing the plot | Technical matters | Back Room Forum

Thu 12 Nov 2015 20:36

Peugeot 307 SW HDI - losing the plot - Hello Its me

Hello.

I've got a 04 model 74000 miles. Its a beaut car but its just gone wrong and no one seems to be able to sort it. I'm just throwing money at it.

Long story short. Anti pollution light and engine light on.

So its had new turbo, new egr and solenoid on turbo. No joy, still running badly.

I've now been told I need a new turbo repeater valve and looking at another £800.

Apparently the gas pressures are wrong and the error egr limits not learned is coming up. Will this valve sort it and is that how much it should cost.

Any ideas besides scrapping the car?

Thanks

Edited by Hello Its me on 12/11/2015 at 20:47

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Fri 13 Nov 2015 08:53

Peugeot 307 SW HDI - losing the plot - Railroad.

Gas pressures are wrong eh? I wonder how anyone determined that? But coupled with poor running it could be that the exhaust is blocked, and that the engine is running on part of it's own exhaust gas. Has your car got a diesel particulate filter? They weren't required on diesels prior to 2008, but many cars, including french models, had them anyway. A new DPF may be required. Drop the exhaust front pipe, and bearing in mind the noise it will make, run the engine and see if it's any better. If it is then the exhaust is blocked.

A blocked DPF will cause havoc with engine running, especially if the EGR valve is failing to close fully. Another likely problem is the air intake could be full of thick sludge, which is a mix of oil mist from the engine breather and exhaust gas from the EGR. This will restrict airflow, and consequently that will mean signals from the Mass Airflow sensor, and turbo boost pressure sensor will be low. How do you expect turbo boost pressure to be good if the volume of air is low? As I've said many times, fault codes point to where the fault was reported from, and may not necessarily be the component itself at fault.

Cleaning the air intake is a very dirty and time consuming job, but the engine should run a lot better for having done it. The engine cannot run properly if it's all choked up.

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Fri 13 Nov 2015 13:48

Peugeot 307 SW HDI - losing the plot - Gibbo_Wirral

If its a 110bhp it will most likely have the DPF.

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Fri 13 Nov 2015 14:54

Peugeot 307 SW HDI - losing the plot - Railroad.

If its a 110bhp it will most likely have the DPF.

In that case it's the obvious suspect. 74,000 miles on an 11 year old car is low mileage, especially for a diesel. And that being the case it would be no surprise if the DPF was blocked. It should've done nearly twice that mileage in that time.

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Sat 14 Nov 2015 21:59

Peugeot 307 SW HDI - losing the plot - Hello Its me

Hi Gibbo.

I've been told its not and its a 136bhp. Don't know if this makes a difference.

Edited by Hello Its me on 14/11/2015 at 22:05

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Sat 14 Nov 2015 22:07

Peugeot 307 SW HDI - losing the plot - Hello Its me

Thanks for your reply Railroad.

Id read on here about the dpf and I asked the garage about it and they said it wasn't the dpf.

Apparently this is a 136bhp.

I drove the car back from the garage today approx 15 miles. The first few mins the car was kangarooing allover, it stopped doing this after a while and drove smoothly. The anti pollution fault and engine light were still on.

Later on I went back out in it, no anti pollution light and no engine light on. Still not accelerating like it should though.

Ill put your suggestions forward as I don't know how to tackle these jobs myself.

Edited by Hello Its me on 14/11/2015 at 22:08

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Sun 15 Nov 2015 15:26

Peugeot 307 SW HDI - losing the plot - Andrew-T

Have you tried the obvious thing of dosing it with injector cleaner ? No-one mentions this nowadays, but I always notice an improvement after giving my diesel a shot.

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Sun 15 Nov 2015 15:41

Peugeot 307 SW HDI - losing the plot - Wackyracer

Have you tried the obvious thing of dosing it with injector cleaner ? No-one mentions this nowadays, but I always notice an improvement after giving my diesel a shot.

Brave man, be prepared to be shot down in flames by the 'snake oil' preachers.

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Tue 17 Nov 2015 23:32

Peugeot 307 SW HDI - losing the plot - Andrew-T

Have you tried the obvious thing of dosing it with injector cleaner ? No-one mentions this nowadays, but I always notice an improvement after giving my diesel a shot.

Brave man, be prepared to be shot down in flames by the 'snake oil' preachers.

HJ used to swear by it, but that was a while ago ....

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Sun 15 Nov 2015 20:08

Peugeot 307 SW HDI - losing the plot - Cyd

I'd agree with Railroad about keeping the intake clean. The HDi in my Dispatch van benefitted tremendously from a thorough intake cleanup at about 65k. I used 2 cans of Wynn's Professional Turbo Cleaner (from GSF's eBay shop). Coupled with using 'better' diesel (Vpower, Ultimate et al) it made a huge difference. Afterward I used to give it a quick clean with the twice yearly oil changes. It too only did about 6k a year.

Also make sure any water is drained from th efuel filter regularly.

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Mon 16 Nov 2015 10:59

Peugeot 307 SW HDI - losing the plot - Railroad.

The only issue I'd have with that is I'd be very careful about introducing any substance into the air intake on which the engine could run, and run uncontrolled. Also any deposits removed from inside the manifold would have to be broken down and able to pass through the engine without causing any further problems. My suggestion therefore is to remove the manifold and the intercooler and thoroughly clean them.

The best way I've found to do that is to first scrape out the worst with any suitable tool, and then leave it to soak in a bucket full of a 50/50 mix of Heavy Duty Traffic Film Remover and water. Do not use neat TFR, and do not allow TFR to dry on any component as it's very difficult to remove once it's dried. Keep the manifold submerged, and rinse with water when you take it out of the bucket. Eventually it will be perfectly clean inside and out. When it is, dry it thoroughly and refit onto the engine.

To make things a bit quicker it's a good idea to invest in a second hand manifold. That way you can leave it to soak, and it's a straight changeover job once it's clean. Then you can clean your original one and keep it for next time you need to do this.

That's what I did with my old Octavia, and I still have the spare clean manfold to this day, even though I no longer have the car.

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Wed 18 Nov 2015 12:27

Peugeot 307 SW HDI - losing the plot - hardway

So if it's a 136 the three letters in the middle of the vin number are RHR

Correct?

And do you know what dianostic scanner was used to read the car?

Honestly I would'nt use or trust anything else except Peugeot Planet.

Even Snap On can give confusing results.

Oh and one last thing,

have you looked into the bottom of the fuel filter?

To save time this is the first thing I do on these,

Any metal swarf in the chamber usually stops any speculation.

#I.E. it's b*****ed.

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Wed 18 Nov 2015 13:12

Peugeot 307 SW HDI - losing the plot - Gibbo_Wirral

If you post up the last 8 digits of your VIN I can check on Peugeot Servicebox if you have a DPF.

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Wed 18 Nov 2015 17:52

Peugeot 307 SW HDI - losing the plot - Hello Its me

Hello.

Last 8 are 83741031.

Thank you.

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Wed 18 Nov 2015 18:06

Peugeot 307 SW HDI - losing the plot - Hello Its me

Correct.

No idea what diagnostics have been used. It went to Peugeot first off for £56, while it was there they wanted another £250 for further investigations because they weren't sure what the problem was. So I took it elsewhere.

Its been to 2 garages since had various stuff done / replaced and its still not sorted.

The last guy looking at is has gone off sick so the car is sat outside doing nowt.

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Wed 18 Nov 2015 19:49

Peugeot 307 SW HDI - losing the plot - hardway

Reason for asking if it has RHR in the vin is this will tell me if it's the Peug fitted with the in tank fuel pump.

Which I believe it to be.

So it's not just got a DPF but has an fluid addative system as well.

And it really does make a hell of a lot of difference when it comes to diagnostics.

Same system has a gas pressure sensor on the exhaust.

But If Peug had it at first they surely checked the DPF percentage.

That would have come up in a global peugeot scan,

Which is the second thing I'd do after looking into the base of the fuel filter bowl.

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Thu 19 Nov 2015 12:55

Peugeot 307 SW HDI - losing the plot - Gibbo_Wirral

Peugeot report it as:

307 ESTATE - LEISURE 2.0 HDi 138 particle emission filter Manual gearbox 6

PARTICLE FILTER

Edited by Gibbo_Wirral on 19/11/2015 at 12:56

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Wed 25 Nov 2015 22:56

Peugeot 307 SW HDI - losing the plot - Hello Its me

Had more diagnostics done, been told the car is surging, turbo is losing pressure and needs a vacuum test to find a possible leak. This was an auto electricians opinion.

So had it back to garage, been back on their computer whilst on road test and the egr is shutting down whilst driving.

Deff not dpf.

Still ongoing.

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Sun 29 Nov 2015 15:17

Peugeot 307 SW HDI - losing the plot - Morris Marina 1.3 Super

Never heard of a 'turbo repeater valve'..it sounds like the garage has just picked another of the most expensive components to replace... before checking the basics.

Checking the intercooler and associated pipework for leaks seems like a good idea.

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Sun 29 Nov 2015 16:22

Peugeot 307 SW HDI - losing the plot - hardway

EGR "shutting down"?

Nuts,

the EGR should be shut down when driving normaly.

The EGR or exhaust gas recirculation valve does just that,

when it's pulsed open it lets exhaust gas back into the inlet manifold.

Now because exhaust gases have little oxygen the combustion temperature goes down so limiting some exhaust gases.

It wouldn't be the first time I've fitted stainless steel blanking plates to an egr to isolate a fault.

and there's various symptoms for a failed/failing EGR.

the most frequent one I come across is a low MAF reading.

And you've never mentioned that one.

Failing turbo pressure one these I start by checking the vacuum at the pump then on to the pressure solenoid and down to the turbo activation arm.

Or I apply full vacuum right at the turbo control with a mityvac gun.

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Sun 29 Nov 2015 21:04

Peugeot 307 SW HDI - losing the plot - Hello Its me

hardway,
Where are you based? Do you want to take it on? ??

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Sun 29 Nov 2015 22:44

Peugeot 307 SW HDI - losing the plot - Railroad.

The EGR valve should be closed when the engine is idling and at full load. It should only open during cruise conditions to allow a controlled amount of exhaust gas back which in turn lowers combustion temperature and consequently NOx emissions.

The ECM commands the EGR to open, and when it does the air being drawn through the air intake reduces. This is because the air intake is now also open to the exhaust. This reduction in air flow is detected by the mass air flow sensor, and the ECM uses this information to verify that the EGR has actually opened when told to. Blanking off the EGR will result in the ECM taking action to reduce engine power to control NOx emissions, since this is the whole purpose of the EGR system. This is because the ECM will not be able to detect a reduction in air flow if the EGR is blanked, and therefore will know there's no EGR.

Blank it if you like, but be aware you will lose a bit of performance, which is not a fault, but a controlled means of maintaining NOx emissions.

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Mon 30 Nov 2015 07:15

Peugeot 307 SW HDI - losing the plot - hardway

Sorry dude,

way to busy,

And to clarify I'm only suggesting blanking of the EGR to isolate possible leaking problems,

I'm not advocating it as permenant.

OP stated that even with a new EGR it hasn't helped.

So I'm left with the turbo not running as it should or as Railroad stated way back check the exhaust.

It matters not what parts are changed at the inlet end if it cant "breath" out!

And OP did state "gas presures"

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Mon 30 Nov 2015 08:42

Peugeot 307 SW HDI - losing the plot - Railroad.

Hardway. Please forgive me if I sounded like I was disagreeing with what you say about EGR. I wasn't, I completely agree. I was merely making the point to the OP and others that permanently blanking off the EGR will have consequences. To do so temporarily to confirm a diagnosis of course is fine.

Vehicle manufacturers are very serious about emissions (although that may now be regarded as laughable following the VW scandal). In fact much of the world is under pressure to comply. It is also an offence to modify a vehicle in such a way so that it no longer meets the emission requirements it was originally designed to meet. The ECM needs to know that the EGR system is working, and it gets that information from the MAF in conjunction with knowing when the EGR valve is commanded open or closed. It has no way of knowing what the actual exhaust gas consists of.

We all know that EGR systems are the cause of unwanted problems, but the fact is the manufacturer is more concerned about low NOx emissions than about intake manifolds clogging up later in a car's life.

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Mon 30 Nov 2015 12:59

Peugeot 307 SW HDI - losing the plot - Gibbo_Wirral

OP: Google "Peugeot Planet Map", it will point you in the direction of a network of UK Peugeot owners with advanced skills in diagnostics on Peugeot vehicles only and a lot of experience with Peugeots as they're regular contributors to a forum.

They don't do repairs so they won't have a vested interest in making money out of you by throwing parts at the problem.

It should give you a good foundation to get sorted.

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Mon 30 Nov 2015 23:37

Peugeot 307 SW HDI - losing the plot - Morris Marina 1.3 Super

Unfortunately the quality of people going into the motor industry hasn't kept pace with the technology.

When I was at school the kids not bright enough to sit still long enough to do basic maths were shunted off to do 'motor vehicle studies' where they could cause less disruption.

These chancers have now populated the main dealer network. It was fine in the old days when all they had to do was set the gap between a pair of contacts ..but now they are totally stumped.

Now owners get annoyed when 'Daz' comes along and starts replacing turbos and other expensive bits when he hasn't the faintest idea of how to check and systematically repair the systems properly . Then we get the 'all Renaults/Peugeots etc. are rubbish line from fuming owners ..when all along it's Daz or Dean's fault.

Really need to find one of the few proper engineering technicians that can see beyond fault codes and test components properly.

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Tue 1 Dec 2015 08:33

Peugeot 307 SW HDI - losing the plot - Railroad.

I think you've hit the nail bang on the head Marina. I've always said that the motor trade is always at least 5 years behind the technology, and has been blagging its way for years. It's always been a low pay trade, and technicians have been downtrodden, both within the dealership and with customers. My old boss used to tell us that mechanics were ten a penny. Now it seems is payback time.

Training and access to factory technical information is virtually non existent in independent garages, who mainly only offer a cheaper alternative to the main dealer. They get by everyday not so much by shear knowledge, but by figuring things out, some of which may be right and some is wrong, but the lack of training is a concern. But in truth most main dealerships aren't much, if any better. Training it seems is regarded as an unwanted expense rather than a necessity. Couple this with the ever increasing complexity of motor vehicles and we clearly have a problem.

Things can either go one of two ways. Either dealerships can invest in training and quality of staff, or manufacturers can build cars more cheaply with the intention of them becoming disposable after two or three years. It looks like nothing will change anytime soon, and the customer will continue to get a raw deal.

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Tue 1 Dec 2015 21:54

Peugeot 307 SW HDI - losing the plot - Morris Marina 1.3 Super

Agree there is a problem with the status of technicians in the motor trade - perhaps this is why it's not attracting enough of the right sort of people. It's still viewed as something for kids to do that 'aren't academic'. There are good people in the trade but they are too often downtrodden it seems.

I heard around half of turbo's sent for rebuilds prove to be perfectly serviceable. There is a serious problem in the trade when so many technicians can't even follow routine fault finding procedures.

It amazes me that so many main dealer mechanics, that work with the same cars day to day make so many costly mistakes as is chronicled on this forum.

Many diy mechanics ,often with limited facilities and access to service information manage to change timing belts etc. and repair minor faults on a 'one off job' basis. The trade should do infinitely better...but I suspect many like myself would never dream of taking their car to a dealer for a routine repair or service.

My local and well renowned VW specialist diagnosed a worn out camshaft and quoted me £1200 for a repair after the car went into limp home mode. I wasn't convinced (it turned out to be sticking turbo vanes the cam lobes were fine) ..but how many other would have just paid up and been unaware they had been ripped off?.

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Wed 2 Dec 2015 13:27

Peugeot 307 SW HDI - losing the plot - Railroad.

Marina. I left school in 1980 aged 16 and went to work in a Vauxhall Main Dealership. I completed my four year apprenticeship and was there until 1995. During those 15 years I attended the Vauxhall College in Luton for training on just four occasions, each for two days. A total of eight days manufacturer's training for that duration. I addition to that I completed the one-day MOT testers course in 1985. Even by my own admission I became very proficient on Vauxhall models, and by the time I left the dealership I thought I knew as much as anyone could know about them. I was about to discover how wrong I was.

In March 1995 I joined the AA as a Patrol. After a week of local training, and a further week shadowing a patrol, I attended the AA college for my recruitment training. By now in only two weeks I'd already had more training than I'd had in total over the previous 15 years. By the end of that course I was in no doubt about how much I didn't know. As I attended breakdowns at the roadside I quickly learned more and more, and one thing I learned was that problems with cars isn't about makes ans models, it's about systems. If you understand how different systems work it doesn't matter what you're working on, you can always diagnose and repair faults. In that respect cars aren't as different as they may first appear.

Eventually I left the AA and had a couple of other jobs before moving to an idependent garage close to where I live. I left there three years ago to take up my current position. My boss at the garage told me that time and cost is everything, and that he would much rather a problem be misdiagnosed resulting in a job or a component be replaced that he could charge for, rather than spend ages to find the real problem for which he couldn't charge. How many of us have spent hours finding a fault only to take 30 seconds to fix it when we do? The customer says "What do mean £300, it was only a broken wire", forgetting that it took hours of painstaking work to find it. My old boss would much rather replace the turbo. You can charge for that.

The whole motor trade is rotten to the core. Yes there are some very good and competent technicians out there, but they're up against it, and no person is bigger than the garage they work in.

Lack of training, inadequate tools and equipment, poor or incorrect knowledge, failure to keep up with technology changes, poor quality staff, inept or even stupid managers and a 'them and us' culture are all reasons why the customer will continue to suffer.

Urgent changes are long overdue.

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Wed 16 Dec 2015 18:12

Peugeot 307 SW HDI - losing the plot - Hello Its me

Greetings,

Thanks for all your input guys. I've finally got the car mended as of yesterday 15/12/15. After having the new turbo fitted early Sept.

The car was still not right after having the turbo fitted as you know. So had egr, air flow thing, sensors for one thing and another. Blar blar blar.

It turned out to be the new turbo that was faulty. Been replaced now and its fine.

Lost my faith in mechanics, and turned grey x

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Thu 17 Dec 2015 01:02

Peugeot 307 SW HDI - losing the plot - hardway

Happy you got the bstrd fixed,

And I couldn't agree more with the comments from others on lack of understanding,

For want of a better description.

Though in your case I have to admit I have had faulty parts from suppliers in the past.

And it does throw your thought train off.

A fault quite rightly diagnosed in your initial case was rectified in good faith with a "new" turbo which turned out to be duff!

I'm not entirly sure I would have picked up on that either.

We tend to trust suppliers.

What choice do we have?

It's not just that a faulty part was supplied and fitted you would not believe the arguments with suppliers that can happen in these cases.

No offense to the guys at the suppliers but they're sales staff,

not mechanics or technicians.

And they argue that the part supplied has to go back to the manufacturers for tests!

Meantime your left with a dead car until they reluctantly admit the fault and offer a replacement.

Do you trust the second one?

The only test for a faulty turbo would be a pressure test on the induction side.

And there's no test acess point on these cars for that.

An adapter would need to be made.

and to be honest for a tool junkie like me I don't even own a dedicated turbo pressure gauge so I would have had to make up the pressure tester.

More time on a supposed new working system.

And I can't recall any normal turbo pressure readings in any Peugeot manuals so what would a normal reading be?

If any blame is going to be nailed here it wasn't the mechanics but the quality control at the manufacturers of the turbo.

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Thu 17 Dec 2015 13:46

Peugeot 307 SW HDI - losing the plot - galileo

The company I worked for made turbos for heavy duty diesels for use in trucks/buses/DMUs/gensets and for many years every turbo was hot-tested in an instrumented test cell burning red diesel.

Improved quality control of bought in castings and in-house manufacture led to a change to sample testing, reducing the tested percentages until confidence was established.

Turbo operation now is generally dependent on various sensors feeding data to the ECU which then controls wastegates or variable geometry, so not so simple to fault find as it used to be.

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