Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - John F

For the first time in 40yrs I have just spent a day as a typical commuter on roads linking two ordinary English township areas (Northampton - approx 1/4 million, Wisbech/Kings Lynn approx 100,000, starting just before 7am and returning just after 5pm. Never again.

I was ashamed of my country. I think it could have been quicker sixty years ago. Apart from a few short stretches of dual carriageway which can be blocked by one lorry slowly overtaking another, cars crawl for the most part nose to tail at the speed of the slowest HGV.

Why is there no rebellion? I cannot imagine the cumulative frustration that must be felt by those whose productive time spent trundling along is utterly wasted. Anyone who flies regularly will know that even 6 lane motorways virtually disappear into the vastness of our currently unprofitable farmland. We must demand the ability to overtake lorries on A roads linking towns.

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - Bromptonaut

So a town of 200k and another half its size. How much demand is there for travel between them?

Obvious route would be A45>A14>A141>A47. There's no doubt that the A45 from Stanwick to Thrapston is a 'missing link' ripe for dualling but then you've got the A14 as far as Huntingdon. The rest is nowhere near trunk status until you hit the A47 and frankly one would struggle to cost justify anything more than limited bypassing and removal of hazards.

What would be the real economic or personal gain if cars could travel slightly faster than the HGV?

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - Smileyman

benefit - let's start with reduced blood pressure and reduced frustration.

The A251 is a narrow A road, linking the M2 and M20 motorways beteween Faversham and Ashford. It's full of bends, pases a few hamlets and has a long hill at the Ashford end. In a car the speed limit is 50 for most of the route, HGV, bus, vehicle towing horse box et al presumably 40, get stuck behind a tractor much slower. Overtaking opportunities are few, long queues of traffic often. If two lorries, busses or HGV's want to pass each other they slow down to walking pace to do so. Nightmare road to use.

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - RichT54

It seems to me that far from planners adding extra dualling on rural A roads, they appear to be steadily removing many of the existing sections of dual carriageways. In many places what was the outside lane of a dual carriage way gets blocked off, greatly reducing the opportunities to safely overtake slow moving vehicles.

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - John F

It seems to me that far from planners adding extra dualling on rural A roads, they appear to be steadily removing many of the existing sections of dual carriageways. In many places what was the outside lane of a dual carriage way gets blocked off, greatly reducing the opportunities to safely overtake slow moving vehicles.

Absolutely right, RichT. A21 north of Flimwell a case in point, presumably because of accident prone junctions. Googlemap it and see the southbound queue! This road, which is no wider than 100yrs ago as it threads its way through the nimbys' estates, should be completely dualled with grade separated junctions. And if cash strapped Spain and Portugal can build motorways along its southern coast (towards which our EU contributions went), why can't we?

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - Alby Back
It's also true to say that no one, or very few anyway seem confident to overtake as much now. If drivers left a decent gap between themselves and the vehicle they were following they'd have better sight lines to plan an overtake or if they chose not to then at least someone behind them could work the line safely.

Overtaking does now also seem to annoy other drivers much more than it did with some even, appearing at least, to actively attempt to prevent it.

That and the rash of cameras scaring anyone from even briefly getting up enough of a temporary head of steam to safely pass.

Thankfully my car accelerates, handles and stops quite well which helps a bit but when I'm driving a lower powered car I'm equally circumspect about attempting an overtake these days.

I call upon the drivers of the nation to make room for themselves and others to do it.


( cue rousing music )

;-)
Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - John F

So a town of 200k and another half its size. How much demand is there for travel between them?

I doubt if there's much demand for travel between Exeter and Worcester. The point is that even if you only need some of the N'ton to KL road for your particular commute you will need almost twice as long than if it was dualled. If we were talking train times, the rail users would be incensed if their journeys were regularly taking over an hour rather than 40mins.

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - Sofa Spud

You did pick one of the worst cross-country routes, most aren't that bad!

Usually if there's a difficult cross-country route you can usuallly find an easier alternative using mostly motorways and dual carriageways, even if it's a bit longer in distance. That doesn't look practical between Northampton and King's Lynn!

Edited by Sofa Spud on 03/04/2015 at 17:58

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - Andrew-T

Why is there no rebellion? I cannot imagine the cumulative frustration that must be felt by those whose productive time spent trundling along is utterly wasted. Anyone who flies regularly will know that even 6 lane motorways virtually disappear into the vastness of our currently unprofitable farmland. We must demand the ability to overtake lorries on A roads linking towns.

Try calculating the cost of improving those roads (and all the others) to the standard you expect, then calculate whether that would be cost-effective, and finally calculate whether you (and everyone else) would gladly pay the increased taxes?

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - alastairq

Dunno why there's such an issue these days about lower powered cars, and overtaking ?

For sure, if, by lower powered car, one means, a Citroen 2 CV, then I could understand..although in such a car, properly driven, overtaking is a pleasurable pastime....since it takes skill, amongst other things.

Recently I had the short-term use of a Matiz.....and failed to comprehend how these cars have been vilified. Once I had become familiar with its characteristics, I found I could overtake all sorts...whatever I felt was 'in my way'.....and without having to exceed the proscribed speed limits, either.

Just takes a bit of planning.....something I feel most drivers don't think they should have to do!

The problem to come with A-roads, to me..will occur when LGV speed limits for single carriageways get raised.

Sure as eggs are eggs, LGVs will be thumping along on their speed limiters, [knowing they will get away with it]...and since car speed limits will not get raised in proportion, overtaking will become nigh on impossible [remaining within the Law....]....so average traffic speeds will fall overall.

Comments above about drivers not overtaking, yet remaining too close to the [slower] vehicle in front, I agree with. Very rarely do car drivers simply drop back, to leave a goodly space, for others who wish to overtake, to do so, and pull in, before tackling the 'slower' vehicle itself.

It's why military convoys [in Europe] have that large spacing....

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - gordonbennet

Should ease a bit from Tuesday as the HGV speed limits are raised to 50mph on single carriageway roads and, for the sake of argument, limiter speed, so between 50 and 55mph on dual carriageways...England not Scotland, apart from experimental A9 AFAIK.

I'm none too sure about this to be honest, whilst heavy vehicle braking systems have improved massively, the same cannot be said for the skill set, both trained and not now being learned because there is no need...just as many of you have noticed the appalling lack of driving skills of increasing numbers of car/van drivers, the same scenario with drivers of all classes of vehicle.

Anyway, the reason the roads have reached saturation point is staring most of you in the mirror...you got exactly what you voted for...quarts don't fit in pint pots (this applies to much of Britains services as well as infrastructure)...most of you will vote for more of the same in May and then wonder why nothing's changing.

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - John F

Try calculating the cost of improving those roads (and all the others) to the standard you expect, then calculate whether that would be cost-effective, and finally calculate whether you (and everyone else) would gladly pay the increased taxes?

Much progress in civilised living is not 'cost-effective'. Concorde, channel tunnel, Canary Wharf, most of the rail network and probably much of the NHS come to mind. Most went bust, none turn a profit.

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - Bromptonaut

Much progress in civilised living is not 'cost-effective'. Concorde, channel tunnel, Canary Wharf, most of the rail network and probably much of the NHS come to mind. Most went bust, none turn a profit.

Canary Wharf and the Channel Tunnel were commercial ventures. Both are now making money albeit after some write downs/write offs for original funders.

Road upgrades have to meet certain standards for imputed gain - dualling relatively spa***ly trafficked ross ountry routes don't get the scores on the doors.

And as pointed out above even low powered cars can overtake - my main drive is a sub 70PS diesel Berlingo but I can still make progress on the A5 through Northants.

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - Bromptonaut

Road upgrades have to meet certain standards for imputed gain - dualling relatively spa***ly trafficked

FFS not only can I not say S C U N T H O R P E on here I cannot even use a bog standard dictionary word meaning lightly scatterd or scanty.

Sort out the word filter. PLEASE.

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - focussed

The mindset of the college-educated and PC brainwashed traffic engineers at the Highways Agency is that slower speeds are safer so little is likely to change- faster roads attract traffic is their theory- so keep the obstructions and slow everything down is what they do.

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - Snakey

Maybe you should modify the title to read "A roads,B roads, Motorways, car parks" etc.

We're a country that is highly dependent on private transport, but in which successive governments punish us on an escalating scale for doing so.

Even some of the actual design of the roads amazes me - obviously designed on a sheet of paper by someone who has never driven a car. Classic example near the tyne tunnel where three lanes meet a roundabout, left and middle lanes go straight over, right lane goes right. However both the right and middle lanes meet on the roundabout. Clever stuff.

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - Andrew-T

Even some of the actual design of the roads amazes me - obviously designed on a sheet of paper by someone who has never driven a car.

I understand how you feel, but this criticism is simply silly. It is almost a certainty that the designer drove to his office - or if not, he/she drives at weekends. Very few people in Britain have never driven, at any rate those of working age.

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - alastairq

If you think faster is better..ie safer, there is a credibiltiy gap! Almost delusional.

Just because one feels safer a 90mph, doesn't mean to say one is actually safe.

Modern cars insulate the driver from the real world.

To an alarming extent.

[In other words, we feel capable of driving far in exces of our actual capabilities.]

Driving a motorway is misleading. They are the safest roads we can drive on, so we drive at speed, then think we can 'handle' high speeds.

The reality hits when we come across that one occasion when events move faster than our brains can cope with.

Neither is it reasonable to expect all other road users to cope with our high speed.

But, hey ho...so far so good, eh?

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - jamie745

Apart from a few short stretches of dual carriageway which can be blocked by one lorry slowly overtaking another,

This! This here people!

To be fair, most lorryists are alright for this but there are too many who spend about three minutes overtaking another lorry. They don't seem to have realised yet that they're all restricted TO THE SAME SPEEEEEED!

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - John F

To be fair, most lorryists are alright for this but there are too many who spend about three minutes overtaking another lorry. They don't seem to have realised yet that they're all restricted TO THE SAME SPEEEEEED!

We are all restricted to the speed limit. It's basically because they are too lazy/b***** minded to briefly override the cruise control. I have noticed during the working week there is a balletic give and take on the outer two lanes to enable smooth progress - not so on the inner two. On a mere two lane dual carriageway you're stuffed.

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - Alby Back
Of course you can overtake in a low powered car, it just takes a bit more planning. Hence my use of the word circumspect. My main point though was that people seem ( could of course be selective perception ) to object to being overtaken more nowadays and get all aerated about when you do. It used to be normal but now seems to cause offence.

But also you used to be able, on say a 60 mph road, to briefly whack it up to 70 or so to get past quickly and spend as little time as possible on the wrong side of the road, but cameras cause everyone to fear doing that resulting in overtakes taking longer than is safe.
Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - oldroverboy.

and probably much of the NHS come to mind. Most went bust, none turn a profit.

You cannot quantify the value of public services. Let's all go back to the 50's when it took far longer to travel anywhere and life expectancy was lower. It,s called progress. But a few years 50 or so the poster could have travelled almost directly by train.

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - FP

When new roads get built or older ones upgraded, the result is inevitably more traffic than before, because people either believe that a switch from public transport to car will save them a bit of time and money on an existing journey, or actually attempt a journey that would have been out of the question before.

The reason is the population density of much of the UK and the high proportion of car ownership, plus our reliance on road transport. No foreseeable amount of road improvement will keep ahead of this - all that happens is just a modest amount of catch-up. It would take vast expenditure and disregard for environmental concerns to change that.

Being "ashamed of my country" - presumably on the grounds that its road infrastructure doesn't allow average speeds of anything like the legal maximum 24/7 - is a rather silly reaction based on unrealistic expectations.

It is easy to argue that a particular route, like the A14, is spectactularly in need of improvement, but I suspect that if it happened it would simply shift the problem somewhere else.

Edited by FP on 03/04/2015 at 23:15

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - bazza

Agree with OP, it is indeed embarrassing to return from driving anywhere in Europe back off the ferry on to our infrastructure. The quality of our road surfaces is generally awful, they are full of potholes,repairs and repaired repairs. There is a section of the A48M near Cardiff that is dangerous, as the O/s tyre line is breaking up for hundreds of metres. Whern I ride my bike, I find I increasingly adjust my position in the road from Position 3 (to the right of the centre of the lane) to the centre strip just to avoid the mess of pot holes and poor repairs. We are supposedly the 4th richest contry in the world, yet our transport infrastructure is still Victorian. Why no 200mph TGV trains here, why no 300 mph Bullit trains? i can't think of a reason other than the hopeless short term political system tied up with a tortuous planning system that won't approve anything. GB has a good point too!

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - skidpan

It's also true to say that no one, or very few anyway seem confident to overtake as much now.

Overtaking does now also seem to annoy other drivers much more than it did with some even, appearing at least, to actively attempt to prevent it.

Totally agree. I spend quite a bit of time driving on Lincolnshire A roads which are in pretty good condition and on the whole have pretty good visibility. But get in a queue in the summer behing a caravan and no one is prepared to overtake. Being a press on driver I pick my spots and get past as many as I can safely (as much to prevent boredom as any hope of getting there faster) but some driver blast their horns in anger and other close the gap to prevent you from getting back in.

No amount of road improvements are going to stop this behaviour and there is no way these roads will ever be dualed.

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - thunderbird

It's why military convoys [in Europe] have that large spacing....

Military convoys have a large gap between vehicles for a very different reasons than allowing overtaking. One is simply that should one vehicle hit a land mine others in the convoy can take apropriate action without being affected. Another is ambushes, far more difficult to ambush a widely spaced convoy than a group of vehicles.

Think about it, even on UK motorways military convoys travel with huge spaces and overtaking is not that difficult on a motorway.

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - Bromptonaut

We are supposedly the 4th richest contry in the world, yet our transport infrastructure is still Victorian. Why no 200mph TGV trains here, why no 300 mph Bullit trains? i can't think of a reason other than the hopeless short term political system tied up with a tortuous planning system that won't approve anything.

We've had TGV style trains running to the Channel Tunnel now for years and the full service on 'HS1' since 2007. North of London we've been able to run excellent high speed services over the Victorian infrastructure. The distances are too short for French style new lines to be justified on time saving alone.

It's only now when the old lines are full that we can justify HS2 etc becuase they deliver capacity - speed is a bonus.

Even then the NIMBYs, including many regular posters here, deny the need.

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - jamie745

Even then the NIMBYs, including many regular posters here, deny the need.

Well there is no need for HS2 but that's really beside the point because there's certainly no money to build it anyway.

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - Bromptonaut

Well there is no need for HS2 but that's really beside the point because there's certainly no money to build it anyway.

As somebody who's usd the overcrowded London lines for years I'd beg to differ. The cost spread over it's lifetime is not really an issue.

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - jamie745

It is an issue if you haven't got it, but that sort of thing hasn't bothered Government for a few years now.

I haven't been on a train for roughly 10 years and have only been on a train a handful of times, but I don't see how oblierating the countryside to build a mega fast train to Manchester (for £70billion) is going to solve the overcrowding problems on the Northern Line.

From what I've heard the long distance train services are decent enough already, it's the shorter distance inner city journeys which are the problem.

A previous poster mentioned the fact the countries inferstructure is still Victorian. Well 100 years ago, the population was something like 35 million. It's now nearly double that and it simply wasn't built for it. Simple as that really.

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - alastairq

<<<But also you used to be able, on say a 60 mph road, to briefly whack it up to 70 or so to get past quickly >>>>

Exceeding the speed limit is an absolute offence.

Therefore the above is pure urban myth.

Trouble with urban myth is, apply it long enough and often enough, without being brought to book, and it is deemed acceptable.

There is no need to exceed the speed limit when overtaking.

If such a need proves necessary, then the overtake should not have been conducted...it is not a 'safe' overtake, therefore the action would be in contravention of the Law.

So, if folk consider it acceptable to flout the Law, exceed the limit, why not simply ignore the limits full stop?

[Why stop at overtaking? Why not just bash on anyway? Why do people overtake me, by exceeding the limit, then slow down to the limit in front? Getting in MY way as a result...Two offences! ]

Why worry about cameras? As we all know, many don't work, there are too few trafpol about to be of concern....so why not drive everywhere at 90mph? No-one is going to prevent you?

Incidentally, speed camera sites are probably one of the best places to overtake...given what the average driver does when spotting one?

The Driving licence today equates to nothing more than a travel pass.

Edited by alastairq on 04/04/2015 at 18:09

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - alastairq

<<<<< Military convoys have a large gap between vehicles for a very different reasons than allowing overtaking. One is simply that should one vehicle hit a land mine others in the convoy can take apropriate action without being affected. Another is ambushes, far more difficult to ambush a widely spaced convoy than a group of vehicles.

Think about it, even on UK motorways military convoys travel with huge spaces and overtaking is not that difficult on a motorway.>>>>>

Really?

Speaking as an active Military driver Instructor, engaged currently on Service Driver Conversion, believe me, the reasons for the distancing have little to do with what you quote, and everything to do with integrating with the local travelling community, minimising the impact of such moverments.

Procedures to deal with what you mention are created to suit the theatre. All direct military procedure also is dealt with likewise.

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - Alby Back
Had a bad day or something? Surely you're not that miserable as a general rule? Maybe you are.

Do cheer up !

;-)
Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - alastairq
Had a bad day or something? Surely you're not that miserable as a general rule? Maybe you are. Do cheer up ! ;-)

I wish!

We are entering into a 'work overload' situation....no doubt everyone will have heard of the 'mass sackings' within the entire Civil Service....not for reason of redundancy, but for reasons of discipline.

What with that to look forward to [I'm not personally affected :)]....plus the usual post-winter grotty bug, and coping with numpties who've sadly found their ignition keys......this place is the place to be, to be a GOG.....and vent a spleen or two.

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - Andrew-T

<< It's only now when the old lines are full that we can justify HS2 etc because they deliver capacity - speed is a bonus. >>

I suggest that one way to increase capacity is to lengthen the trains, which should be possible on most lines, but may mean lengthening some platforms too. Capacity may then be limited by parking at stations? HS2 may be a nice idea in principle, but the time savings - and perhaps the capacity increase too - will be limited by the need to use existing low-speed lines inside the urban destination areas. The huge sums predicted are sure to be considerable under-estimates, or no-one would accept the proposal. And the most pointless reason to build it is to create jobs!
Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - Bromptonaut

I suggest that one way to increase capacity is to lengthen the trains, which should be possible on most lines, but may mean lengthening some platforms too.

On the West Coast Line 12 cars is the max at most stations. Most trains are already 12 cars, at least in peak. Try extending all those platforms, some of which also have signalling implications, while continiuing to run the railway around them.

Like the other 'bright idea' of double decking the trains it ends up costing more than a new line.

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - John F

.

Like the other 'bright idea' of double decking the trains it ends up costing more than a new line.

Seems to work well in mainland Europe - we are sadly behind with our pathetically inadequate loading gauge.

But - lean over any railway bridge at most times of the day and all you will see is wasted space. Occasionally an anachronistic string of motorist-tax-payer-subsidised coaches will trundle through delivering people from a place where they don't live or work to a place where they don't want to be. Lean over most dual carriageway bridges and you will see in the space of a mere 10mins vehicles containing enough people and baggage to fill two trains.

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - John F

Even then the NIMBYs, including many regular posters here, deny the need.

Arguably, there is arguably no 'need' for HS2. It would make more sense to improve on the design and turnaround procedures of the 6wheel coaches with wings which ply almost silently between their badly designed stations. Because they require no expensive tarmac or metal, they need no subsidy. Indeed, those of us who use them have to pay a special tax, some of which is undoubtedly vired to support those who travel on huge noisy intrusive expensive high maintenance anachronistic land-grabbing rail coaches - many of which ironically are unavailable when people want to use them during holiday time!

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - John F

Agree with OP, it is indeed embarrassing to return from driving anywhere in Europe back off the ferry

Thanks, Bazza - I know the feeling!

Why no 200mph TGV trains here, why no 300 mph Bullit trains? i can't think of a reason........

1. ( or three if you pad it out) Our country is too small and crowded to justify the audiovisual intrusion.

2. It's just far too expensive! Even America hasn't adopted this foolish policy.

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - galileo

When new roads get built or older ones upgraded, the result is inevitably more traffic than before, because people either believe that a switch from public transport to car will save them a bit of time and money on an existing journey, or actually attempt a journey that would have been out of the question before.

Try 'directions' on Google Maps for a few journeys - Huddersfield Railway station to Sheffield University, for example.

By car, three routes, 56 min to 1 hour, about 1 gallon of petrol, say £6. (you have already paid road tax, insurance and acar will still depreciate sitting on your drive)

By rail and tram, 1hr 39 min to 2 hr 2 min, cheapest single £9.30 + tramfare (£2?)

Back in 1961-4, I travelled this route by train, single fare 6/6d, day return 6/3d, time to Sheffield Victoria station about 50 minutes.

By car, as there were no cameras, fewer speed limits and less traffic, about 40 minutes and about a gallon of petrol, 4/-.

The direct rail route this used (Woodhead/Penistone/Stocksbridge/Sheffield) was closed so now the rail route is via Barnsley.

So public transport was quite competitive, now it is not only more expensive and less convenient, off the main North/South lines its also slower, so not surprising so many prefer to use the car. As a bonus, up to 5 of you can make the journey for the same cost as one, who can afford a family train trip?

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - focussed

I find myself in the strange position of agreeing with young Jamie.

Well there is no need for HS2 but that's really beside the point because there's certainly no money to build it anyway.

Apart from the enormous finacial cost, who needs to be able to get to Birmingham 30 minutes quicker?

(Aplogies to anybody who lives in on and around Brum)

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - Sofa Spud

Apart from the enormous finacial cost, who needs to be able to get to Birmingham 30 minutes quicker?

The angry looking man in the BMW following 2 feet behind your bumper at 70 mph on the M1 ?? !!

Any - England's pathetically inadequate 'A' roads - grimep

How about not voting for the parties that support burning £billions on HS2 in May for a start.