Any - Does Start/Stop Technology Really Save any Money? - Firmbutfair

I note with some interest, that several popular leading european automobile manufacturers, such as Mercedes, VW, Nissan, Hyundai, Kia etc are making a big deal of their start/stop engine technologies and that the application of this, to something like a Honda 1.2 litre Jazz 'just' manages to move its annual VED down from around £120 to £30. By deploying this to just one 'mid price range' model with the smaller 1.2 litre VTEC engine, Honda have managed to sucessfully get an official European Test Cycle result of 120 gm per km - the 'magic' threshold, which all modern supermini and makers of quite large turbo-diesel limousines strive to achieve, in what is are very competitive but contrasting segments of the european car market.

My questions are as follows:

(A) Does the additional initial cost of adding this technology really pay for itself over the long haul ? {cf (C) below for a list of some of the items that add cost to manufacture}

(B) In real world '4 seasons' mixed urban and extra urban UK driving, does it actually really save much petrol?

(C) Are the more robust starter ring, starter motor, larger capacity battery systems and associated monitoring systems as reliable and trouble free as the conventional arrangement, where you can always simply choose to 'turn off your engine' for as long as necessary if 'stuck' in a motorway traffic jam etc.

(D) Are the benefits it apparently confers, such as a reduction in urban roadside exhaust fumes and consequent eco-environmental benefits to a lrge extent 'cancelled out' by the neccessity to replace car batteries, starter motors etc more frequently than would otherwise be the case?

(E) Is s/s technology little more than a cynical way of 'fine tuning' the European Driving Cycle test results to squeeze into one VED grade lower and thus claim technological superiority over a rival manufacturer?

I have been attempting to make my own comparative measurements on a Sept 2001 (61) registered 22,500 miles (and rising) 1.25 litre supermini over intervals in excess of 1200 miles and it is proving difficult to see any significant benefit or improvement in fuel economy by manually 'emulating' the behaviour of a well engineered s/s system such as might be found on cars with sophisticated alternator and battery management systems designed to optimise fuel economy and overall performance i.e. as per BMW 'efficient dynamics' specifications. P.S. I keep my car (AGM) car battery well 'charged up' at all times both summer and winter, by the use of an intelligent external charger purchased from a well known 'german owned' supermarket chain for just £14. Without knowingly or deliberately modifiying my driving style, routes taken or overtaking/braking habits, the uncertainty in mpg measurement appears to be of the same order as the 'benefit' I am trying to measure and is in reality not really any better than what any sensible driver would do, namely to 'switch off the engine' when stationery in any prolonged 'traffic jam' situation.

Once you are averaging between 11 and 12 miles per litre 'brim to brim' - measured over three or four 'tank fulls' of petrol, then the relatively small benefits, shown after the addition of s/s technology, as refllected in typical Official European Driving Cycle Test results and A to B comparisons, become diminishingly small.

Do not even get me started about the dubious 'benefits' of 'paying through the nose' for a multi-cylinder car with 'active cyclinder management' etc - the best way to make any IC petrol engine more efficient is to put a reliable and properly engineered exhaust driven turbo charger on it. Period !

Comments or any anecdotal evidence regarding any of the above would be much appreciated. :-)

Any - Does Start/Stop Technology Really Save any Money? - daveyjp
Manufacturers have an average Co2 output t to meet across their group of 130g/km by 2015. Whilst savings may be minimal for one car owner, if you make the things not meeting the regs costs millions. Guess who pays if they fail?

"If the average CO2 emissions of a manufacturer's fleet exceed its limit value in any year from 2012, the manufacturer has to pay an excess emissions premium for each car registered. This premium amounts to €5 for the first g/km of exceedance, €15 for the second g/km, €25 for the third g/km, and €95 for each subsequent g/km. From 2019, the cost will be €95 from the first gram of exceedance onwards."

As for your assumptions, stop start doesn't use the starter motor, so it isn't under extra strain. Battery is no different to any other car.

I have a Merc with stop start which has now done 40,000 miles and no problems at all with predominantly urban driving where stop start is used a lot. I did once try and time how long it was stopped over a week and i remember it soon reached two hours.

Edited by daveyjp on 21/06/2014 at 22:50

Any - Does Start/Stop Technology Really Save any Money? - craig-pd130
As for your assumptions, stop start doesn't use the starter motor, so it isn't under extra strain. Battery is no different to any other car.

This is not the case on Volvos with stop/start - the restart uses the starter motor, and the car is equipped with a smaller auxiliary battery to keep electrical systems (interior fan, radio, lights etc) operational while the engine is off, and to keep the load off the main battery so it isn't drained excessively.

Any - Does Start/Stop Technology Really Save any Money? - Hamsafar

Cheaper /mass-produced/most cars DO use the starter motor.

Edited by Hamsafar on 21/06/2014 at 23:27

Any - Does Start/Stop Technology Really Save any Money? - daveyjp
PSA are cheap and very mass produced. They use the same system as Mercedes which doesn't use the starter motor.

As for the auxilliary battery, Mercs have used these for years, well before stop start came into being.
Any - Does Start/Stop Technology Really Save any Money? - xtrailman

Making general comments on the various stop start systems isn't advisable.

I can comment on the Mazda CX-5. It does use a specialised battery, specifically made for stop start systems, the plates are more numerous and closer than a standard battery. And to replace my particular battery it would cost around £180!

http://thebatteryshop.co.uk/yuasa-12v-80ah-780a-efb-start-stop-battery-ybx7335-t110-8949-p.asp

The car also starts using a starter motor in diesel form, and two cylinders are fired up to start in petrol mode.

The stop start system is virtually unusable in queing stop start traffic, so i turn it off, i do use it regularly at a certain set of lights as i know i'll be stood long enough to warrant turning of the engine, just like i would if the car didn't have SS.

In my opinion its an expensive gimmick.

Edited by xtrailman on 22/06/2014 at 09:03

Any - Does Start/Stop Technology Really Save any Money? - Engineer Andy

Making general comments on the various stop start systems isn't advisable.

I can comment on the Mazda CX-5. It does use a specialised battery, specifically made for stop start systems, the plates are more numerous and closer than a standard battery. And to replace my particular battery it would cost around £180!

http://thebatteryshop.co.uk/yuasa-12v-80ah-780a-efb-start-stop-battery-ybx7335-t110-8949-p.asp

The car also starts using a starter motor in diesel form, and two cylinders are fired up to start in petrol mode.

The stop start system is virtually unusable in queing stop start traffic, so i turn it off, i do use it regularly at a certain set of lights as i know i'll be stood long enough to warrant turning of the engine, just like i would if the car didn't have SS.

In my opinion its an expensive gimmick.

For a 'specialist battery', £180 isn't actually that bad! My mk1 Mazda 3 goes through batteries (Mazda's own) at a rate of 1 every 4 years (I'm often working in London so don't use the car that much, which reduces battery life, and cannot use a trickle charger as I live in a flat), and have recently been quoted £105 (my normal dealership), £130 & £150 all for the same Mazda battery (installed cost) at 3 nearby dealerships! I checked and 4 years ago the same thing cost me about £75.

Inflation at 50% minimum in 4 years! I realise we also have to factor in the depereciation of the £ against the Euro, $ and Yen as well, but how complex is a car battery? I takes 5-10 minutes (including ensuring that all the car electronics/ICE settings aren't lost) - of course, I bet they charge for the 'minimum' 30 minutes labour. And they wonder why more and more people go to independents and DIY!

BTW - HJ seems to be a fan of the Mazda system, which I would be using if I bought another Mazda3 (whether i will depends upon whether the mk3's supposed 'rusting' problem [lots of posts about it from the US] pans out over here or is only a local problem in the US). I would prefer a system where you could turn it on and off (the stop-start system) yourself if it did actually drain the battery more, especially if you didn't do lots of jig-jog city driving.

Any - Does Start/Stop Technology Really Save any Money? - Auristocrat

I've had two Toyota Auris from new - both equipped with stop/start. Before I retired, on my daily commute to work (heavy stop/start traffic in Birmingham - a journey of 6.5 miles took between 35 minutes and 1 hour each way) fuel consumption compared to my previous Corolla was up to 5mpg better.

The Auris stop/start system was certainly more relaxing for the cars occupants when in traffic. No problems with either car.

Any - Does Start/Stop Technology Really Save any Money? - gordonbennet

I suspect the cost to fix the system and possible earlier failure of (more expensive?) parts when it does fail will wipe out most if not all savings.

The more dubious electronic fitments that go on a car, the more likely trouble is, and the absolute certainty that people who think like me won't ever be buying them used.

Any - Does Start/Stop Technology Really Save any Money? - xtrailman

You will eventually have to buy a car fitted with dubious electronic fitments.

Or catch the bus using your bus pass.

Any - Does Start/Stop Technology Really Save any Money? - gordonbennet

You will eventually have to buy a car fitted with dubious electronic fitments.

No, i won't.

This and other rubbish like an electric parking brake or silly semi auto box won't ever be found on a car i own, i keep my old cars in long term survival condition, if and when eventually older vehicles are banned i'll be too old to care one way or another...they'll ban them in cities first, thats music to my ears i only ever visit the hell that now passes as a city when i'm paid and then i'm in a lorry.

We do not have to buy into any of this tripe, there is always an alternative...ie i no longer run Diesels because they are no longer fit for long term purpose, so LPGing proper petrol cars with TC autos is my method, when thats been destroyed by dick turpin the chancellor of the moment i'll find something else.

Edited by gordonbennet on 22/06/2014 at 10:06

Any - Does Start/Stop Technology Really Save any Money? - misar

You will eventually have to buy a car fitted with dubious electronic fitments.

No, i won't.

Leaving aside the virtue or otherwise of your well publicised approach to motoring, most of us will eventually have to buy a car fitted with dubious electronic fitments. Even if everyone wanted an old banger there will be too few to go round.

Modern cars are far more fit for purpose than their predecessors even with all their dubious gadgets. Ignoring minor details such as modern efficiency, comfort and performance, I remember the days when 1000 mile service intervals were the norm (with much more than an oil change) and it was anyone's guess whether an engine rebuild or rust-destroyed body would come first.

The main problems with modern cars are failure to correctly diagnose faults (complexity combined with inadequate mechanics) and the disgraceful cost of spares. This will eventually solve itself. It will become uneconomic to keep older cars on the road compared with throwing them away and buying another one.

Any - Does Start/Stop Technology Really Save any Money? - SteveLee

Leaving aside the virtue or otherwise of your well publicised approach to motoring, most of us will eventually have to buy a car fitted with dubious electronic fitments. Even if everyone wanted an old banger there will be too few to go round.

Modern cars are far more fit for purpose than their predecessors even with all their dubious gadgets. Ignoring minor details such as modern efficiency, comfort and performance, I remember the days when 1000 mile service intervals were the norm (with much more than an oil change) and it was anyone's guess whether an engine rebuild or rust-destroyed body would come first.

The main problems with modern cars are failure to correctly diagnose faults (complexity combined with inadequate mechanics) and the disgraceful cost of spares. This will eventually solve itself. It will become uneconomic to keep older cars on the road compared with throwing them away and buying another one.

There was a period between 1,000 mile services (when 1930?) - the 60s,70s and 80s rust buckets and todays DPF, DMF, leccy handbrake laden vehicles where there's every chance of a well maintained car lasting 30+ years.

Any - Does Start/Stop Technology Really Save any Money? - Wackyracer

There was a period between 1,000 mile services (when 1930?) - the 60s,70s and 80s rust buckets and todays DPF, DMF, leccy handbrake laden vehicles where there's every chance of a well maintained car lasting 30+ years.

About a 1 in 100,000 chance I would say and that would probably be if it spent a fair amount of its life in a dry warm garage being stored.

Remember the reason most people scrap cars is because the cost of repair is greater than the market value of the car. The cost of a new genuine oem DPF could be the reason for an otherwise good car to be scrapped thesedays.

Any - Does Start/Stop Technology Really Save any Money? - SteveLee

You will eventually have to buy a car fitted with dubious electronic fitments.

No, i won't.

This and other rubbish like an electric parking brake or silly semi auto box won't ever be found on a car i own, i keep my old cars in long term survival condition, if and when eventually older vehicles are banned i'll be too old to care one way or another...they'll ban them in cities first, thats music to my ears i only ever visit the hell that now passes as a city when i'm paid and then i'm in a lorry.

We do not have to buy into any of this tripe, there is always an alternative...ie i no longer run Diesels because they are no longer fit for long term purpose, so LPGing proper petrol cars with TC autos is my method, when thats been destroyed by dick turpin the chancellor of the moment i'll find something else.

That's the spirit!

Any - Does Start/Stop Technology Really Save any Money? - skidpan

My last car and my current car had/have stop/start and after 6 1/2 with this feature I think I can write some actual facts instead of the usual nonsense written by people who have never used a car fitted with the device.

Fuel savings, for me very small if any. My normal commute is 15 miles with 5 junctions and 2 roundabouts. At the first junction it never works because the engine is still too cold. At the next 2 you may have to wait for one change of lights if you are unlucky. At the first roundabout sometimes you are lucky and get strait onto it, soemtimes there is a queue, sometimes there is a long queue. If there is a long queue after 4 creeps with a restart stsop/start stops working because it detects the battery is below the charge level required. If you have the A/C on it restarts even sooner in traffic. Obviously whilst you are motoring stop/start saves you no fuel at all despite the arguements that some muppets on other forums have tried to put forward.

Road tax savings. Based on the version of the cars I have owned and their predecessor without stop/start I have saved £100 a year, thats £600 so far.

Both cars have had special AGM batteries fitted. These are more expensive than normal batteries and require programming into the car so there will be a cost implication when a replacement is needed. On my BMW a low battery state was detected by the dealer during the first MOT visit when the car was still just within warranty. replaced FOC.

Both cars have used the starter motor to restart the engine. Heavier duty starters are fitted to cope with the more frequent use. I have seen on another forum where a complete ill informed muppet claimed that the engine was restarted by the alternator and associated serpentine belts and not the normal starter. He was shot down by all including the manufacturer.

So for me its not something that is essential to have but the reduction in RFL is welcome.

There has been a button on the dash of both cars to deactivate it, if you don't like it simply press the button at the start of every trip.

Any - Does Start/Stop Technology Really Save any Money? - Happy Blue!

Similarly, I have had a electric parking brake for four years and no problems. I see no reason not to buy a car with one.

The one modern feature I find frustrating is a form of keyless go where you put the fob into a slot into the dash and press another button. Stupid. I can cope with proper keyless go, so they stay in your pocket or bag, and I have no problems at all with a regular key twist to go, but if you have put a fob into a slot, why not press the key further in to start??

Any - Does Start/Stop Technology Really Save any Money? - Hamsafar

The one modern feature I find frustrating is a form of keyless go where you put the fob

Ugh, 'keyless go' I hate that phrase, I have only seen it in second hand car adverts full or errors and common colloquielisms.

Any - Does Start/Stop Technology Really Save any Money? - Ethan Edwards

On my Yaris HSD the stop start feature works really well. With a co2 of 79 it saves me paying any road tax. So good thing.