car sold but insurance left running - now a claim - Dark_Wizard

Hi.
Hoping someone could advise on possible legal standing.
Sold a car, changed details with DVLA (letter acknowledged) but held insurance to put on to next car. Ended up forgetting about it. several months later someone else has had an accident in that car, and my insurance company are saying that the claim will go against me and I will have to pay because I never cancelled the policy.

My argument is that the policy was void as I was no longer the owner as stated in the insurance documents and the car was not being driven by myself or by someone with my permission which is also a requirement as stated in the documents.

The claim is from the highways agency as they say they have photos of the car causing damage.

I am aware I should have cancelled the policy but genuinely forgot after initial delay with intent to replace that car (i have many policies running and dont track them very well).

I would like to contest my liability for that claim but do not know where I stand legally at the moment.

Any help or suggestion gratefully received.

car sold but insurance left running - now a claim - skidpan

If you do not own the car and were not driving there is no way your insurers should pay out especially as the driver using the car at the time of the accident would not have been insurred on your policy (unless you were insurred as "any driver").

Time to speak to your insurers and make them aware of the facts.

i have many policies running and dont track them very well

Or are you perhaps holding back some information from us? How many peole have "many policies" running and can afford the luxury of not keeping track of them.

car sold but insurance left running - now a claim - Dark_Wizard

I am not holdng anything back. Its just some people would wonder how you can forget about an insurance policy.

At any one time, I have usually 2-3 cars on seperate policies, 2 mbikes, at least 1 pushbike, accident policies, home policies etc. if it was not for renewal quotes sent by post or automatic renewal, i probably would not manage at all. Tracking these sorts of things do not feature very high in the grand scheme of life as long as they are renewed when they need to be.

Regarding the insurers (Esure), they are saying that because the new owner did not have insurance, i am liable because i never cancelled my policy and thats it, as far as they are concerened (that on the phone anyway).

I need to progress this in writing ideally before this is paid out and recorded against me as a claim for the next 5 years of insurances. But would like to know if i need to speak nicely to them as it would be a discretionary thing, or if i am able to quote categorically and legally that they are talking tat.

as before anything more definate on the legal standing or previous experience would be most welcome.

thanks.

Edited by Dark_Wizard on 11/03/2014 at 13:02

car sold but insurance left running - now a claim - tony g
Hi DW,
I'm pretty certain that car insurance policies , stipulate that the main insured must be the registered keeper of the car . It follows then that you cannot be liable for the insurance of the car .

Other than that IMO ,it would go against natural justice for you to be held liable via the insurance ,for damage that was caused by another driver / owner .

I would suggest that you ask your insurer , for details of other cases where they have paid out based on a previous keepers insurance .ive never heard of this ,it sounds unlikely to be correct .
car sold but insurance left running - now a claim - dacouch

Unfortunately the Road Traffic Act makes the Insurer of the vehicle eg your Insurer liable for claims irrespective of whether the driver at the time of the accident was covered by the Policy providing the driver was identified.

Your Insurers have no option but to pay out providing the claim was the drivers fault, it's the law.

They will in turn seek to recover their outlay from you, this is done by a wording in the policy that in effect says "We will seek to recover any monies we pay out from you if we would not have had to pay them but for statute".

The requirement of the RTA that makes the Insurer liable is why it's not recommended that you do not cancel your Insurance when you sell your car. It's also why Insurers want the Certificate back when you cancel the policy.

There was a well publicised case last year where a motorcyclist made the same mistake you did and did not cancel his Insurance after selling the bike. The new owner had an accident for which his Insurers paid out and they then pursued him for £30k+

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but the previous posters are completely wrong.

car sold but insurance left running - now a claim - Bromptonaut

Dacouch is right. Section 148 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 makes the insurer liable even if vehicle is being driven outwith terms of policy.

There's another thread from a couple of weeks ago with same conundrum but from a different perspective.

car sold but insurance left running - now a claim - Dark_Wizard

it just does not seem right though. If the car is no longer mine then surely as having sold it i am legally devoid of any further liability for it?

car sold but insurance left running - now a claim - Andrew-T

it just does not seem right though. If the car is no longer mine then surely as having sold it i am legally devoid of any further liability for it?

A policy insures the vehicle, not the individual, and sets out who may drive it in what circumstances. If the policy is still running, that situation persists. If you want cover to cease, you should arrange it.

car sold but insurance left running - now a claim - Dark_Wizard

surely the policy covers the person more than the vehicle. The person is the policy holder, not the vehicle and as the policy holder, that policy allows me to drive other vehicles.

Im not trying to nit pick, im just exploring what is black and white and what is peoples interpretation on here. If there is room to explore interprtation then there is hope, and lets face it without interprtation, we would have a very different legal system from the one current one.

And thank you for your input Andrew.

car sold but insurance left running - now a claim - Collos25

You can explore all you want the facts have been put before you the car is still covered because you forgot to cancel the policy its quite simple really it may not be fair but it is fact,a few people have fallen foul of this before and it has cost them dearly and have struggled to recover the money from the actual offender.

car sold but insurance left running - now a claim - scot22

I couldn't have put it better Collos. Some knowledgeable people have given their time to reply to your post. They have not given any personal views. These regulations are not open to diiferent interpretations, as can happen in other parts of the law. There is no point in further debate and, as has been warned, any professional involvement may cost you dearly.

car sold but insurance left running - now a claim - tony g
While I'm sure that forum members are correct in their interpretation of the RTA and how it applies in this particular case .

No one has attempted to answer the contradiction that I suggested earlier ,
Namely that a car cannot be insured ,unless the car is the property of or registered to the insured .Clearly the car was not the property of or registered to DW .

The above clause is on both our insurance policies ,is it on your policy DW ?
car sold but insurance left running - now a claim - scot22

That is an arguable position. Perhaps consult a solicitor who gives a free initial consultation. Possibly ask one of the motoring organisations. I see your point and sometimes these questions just don't get asked. Good luck and please let us know the outcome. I agree with your arguments, its just that the law isn't always just.

car sold but insurance left running - now a claim - dacouch

Unfortunately it's not an arguable position due to the Road Traffic Act which is statute law.

If you look on any (Motor) Certificate of Insurance it states in bold letters "Notice to third parties, nothing contained on this certificate may limit your ability to make a claim" This is due to the existance of the RTA and the requirements it places on Insurers authourised to provide motor insurance.

The relevant part of the Road Traffic Act is thus

"151

Duty of insurers or persons giving security to satisfy judgment against persons insured or secured against third-party risks

1) This section applies where, after a certificate of insurance or certificate of security has been delivered under section 147 of this Act to the person by whom a policy has been effected or to whom a security has been given, a judgment to which this subsection applies is obtained.

2) Subsection (1) above applies to judgments relating to a liability with respect to any matter where liability with respect to that matter is required to be covered by a policy of insurance under section 145 of this Act and either—

a) it is a liability covered by the terms of the policy or security to which the certificate relates, and the judgment is obtained against any person who is insured by the policy or whose liability is covered by the security, as the case may be, or

b) it is a liability, other than an excluded liability, which would be so covered if the policy insured all persons or, as the case may be, the security covered the liability of all persons, and the judgment is obtained against any person other than one who is insured by the policy or, as the case may be, whose liability is covered by the security."

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/151

The relevant section is b) which in laymans terms means that the Insurance covers any person for third party risks providing a judgement is obtained against them. In reality a judgement is not needed so what happens in practice is "The driver is identified" is substituted for "judgement is obtained".

So what the RTA does it means that the Insurer of the car is liable for claims say if you lend your car (Or if he borrows it without permission) to your son who is not a named driver on your policy providing he's identified eg arrested or the other party obtains his details etc.

The same applies if you sell your car and do not cancel your insurance and the new owners has an accident but has not insured the car. If they're identified then the seller's Insurers are liable.

There's a reason it's called a Certificate of Insurance, it's because it's a legal document that complies with the RTA and is an agreement by the issuers of that Certificate that they will abide by their statutory requirements of the RTA.

Insurers do not like paying claims due to this part of the policy and will then seek to recover their outlay from their policy holder. The policy (Which is in effect a contract on both parties) agrees the policy holder will reimberse the Insurers for sums they would not have had to pay out had it not been for their statutory requirement to under the RTA.

If the claim is from the Highways agency, |'m guessing it's for an amount in te reason of £5k of more.

Getting professional legal advice would be prudent, if you seek advice look for someone who specialises in vehicles so they understand the Road Traffic Act


car sold but insurance left running - now a claim - scot22

Dacouch I have total respect for your advice. If you say it is not arguable then it is a waste of time. I've read too many of your posts not to appreciate your knowledge. I was obviously wrong in my assertion. We've an insured car we're getting rid of shortly. I'll make sure the insurance is cancelled immediately from when the transaction is completed ! Sympathy for the OP.

car sold but insurance left running - now a claim - dacouch

The alternative to cancelling is either to transfer it to your replacement car or some Insurers allow you to suspend cover.

All the time there's a valid Certificate in place eg not cancelled etc then the Insurers are liable under this section of the RTA.

The reasons for this section of legislation are to protect innocent third parties, thankfully the OP's position is relatively rare. I've seen this situation in my professional career twice.

car sold but insurance left running - now a claim - Avant

Just to say, on behalf of the Backroom, a big thank you to dacouch for the continuing informed advice on insurance issues. You clearly have a lot of knowledge / experience in an area which to most of us is a minefield.